Do you think the Alliance and the Horde can ever forgive each other for past crimes?

[Seylene]

Can they? Not a chance. Will they? Probably, in the most ham fisted way possible explained only with "Just cause." and it will satisfy no one.

[Ulfric Trumpcloak]

Sure let's forgive the horde for attacking a capital city unprovoked and burning alive thousands of civilians for no reason whatsoever other than to start hostilities. I play horde because they have all the cool races, but lorewise the horde is evil.

[Kaver]

Do you mean would the Alliance forgive the Horde?..

[Lord Pebbleton]

I often say this and I don't like to repeat myself, but how exactly could any forgiveness happen as long as the horde keeps getting written without a real purpose apart from being forcibly cruel and evil at random times?

BfA literally happened because Sylvanas was afraid that the alliance would strike first and unprovoked. The alliance. Led by Anduin. Anduin. Striking unprovoked.

Now we have a greater picture thanks to Shadowlands, but damn if that wasn't just the nail of the coffin in the forgiveness department.

[Dellis0991]

They could but they won't.

[Vilendor]

The lore has nothing to do with how the future lore will look like.

It's always money...khm... i mean gameplay first, so the moment there is enough reason or need to let the 2 faction raid/play together we will be best buddies. I bet they will spin a few baddies/bosses out of the "radical rebels who refuse to forgive" (see Tyrande)

[OwenBurton]

No. Its insane and unfeasible after BfA. Maybe Stormwind humans can forgive the horde, or rather Anduin can and his direct subjects will comply. But Alliance as a whole should see the horde as a worst existential threat they ever faced.

Peace is not undesirable. But it is unrealistic, at least in this current context. It seemed like a very hastily and roughly put together conclusion. For example, Rexxar went from hating Jaina, declaring she has killed too many and must be ended, vowing to fight to the death against her (this is also difficult to understand, did the purge of the Dalaran blood elves affect him so deeply, and why, as he has no connection to them), to standing calmly next to her after Baine was arrested by Sylvanas? Does that mean he has forgiven Jaina? Was his personal bond with Baine such that it was sufficient to make him ally with Jaina once again? Would most Horde leaders have turned against Sylvanas if Baine had resisted her from the beginning?

Why did most Alliance leaders apparently support Anduin -- didn't Falstad insist on shattering the Horde in the novel, even before this conflict, and now he is eager to pursue peace? Why is Shandris a borderline pacifist (or at least diplomat) when she was never one in the past? On the contrary, she was a hardened military commander, a ruthless huntress and a natural predator, and a Sentinel over 10,000 years old who fought the Horde countless times, not a priestess who talks about compromise and forgiveness, and even going on insisting she would have killed the Highborne had it not been for Tyrande's pardoning them? Even Malfurion seems upset at the Horde, and refused to speak with Thrall, so why is Shandris so sympathetic? I am not saying her attitude is right or wrong, it just seems to be something pulled out of the blue, possibly because she has a somewhat bland personality at least in-game; she has no special bond with the Horde characters like Anduin and Jaina, I don't think she has even directly interacted with one before this expansion. Wouldn't the gentle and calm Malfurion, who actually had a very good relationship with the Horde leaders, and is deeply connected with nature and balance, be a more appropriate foil to Tyrande?

Moira Thaurissan

The Alliance an' Horde have both suffered terribly in this war, an' mistakes were surely made on both sides.
What matters now is how we move forward! Do we learn somethin' from all o' the bloodshed an' loss, or do we keep on repeatin' the past?

Falstad Wildhammer

So it's peace now, eh? After all that?
Ach, well, it's worth a shot I guess. I can forgive... but a Wildhammer never forgets!

[Lolites]

Sure let's forgive the horde for attacking a capital city unprovoked and burning alive thousands of civilians for no reason whatsoever other than to start hostilities. I play horde because they have all the cool races, but lorewise the horde is evil.

fair point, alliance will always find (weak) justification for their mass murdering...
bcs that makes it all fine in some peoples twisted "logic"

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BfA literally happened because Sylvanas was afraid that the alliance would strike first and unprovoked. The alliance. Led by Anduin. Anduin. Striking unprovoked.

not gonna argue with shitty writing for horde, but i dont think Sylvanas was afraid Anduin would strike unprovoked, more like Genn would strike unprovoked against Anduins orders and Anduing would do nothing... which is not so unrealistic, since it already happened before...

[VladlTutushkin]

fair point, alliance will always find (weak) justification for their mass murdering...
bcs that makes it all fine in some peoples twisted "logic"

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not gonna argue with shitty writing for horde, but i dont think Sylvanas was afraid Anduin would strike unprovoked, more like Genn would strike unprovoked against Anduins orders and Anduing would do nothing... which is not so unrealistic, since it already happened before...

It happened between two groups purely consistent if military personnel.

All her arguments were just strawmanning and creating a boogeyman from Genn to make Saurfang dance her tune. Also thanks to her all those “brave” horde soldiers now being annihilated in unspeakable agony as their souls being crushed and turned into slaves or weapons or simply snuffed away like smoke after being drained of all Anima. And unlike Tyrande there is nobody there to drag even a few of them out of the Maw.

Also “weak justification”? You ridiculous animals almost exterminated a race and thats a “weak” justification?

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Peace is not undesirable. But it is unrealistic, at least in this current context. It seemed like a very hastily and roughly put together conclusion. For example, Rexxar went from hating Jaina, declaring she has killed too many and must be ended, vowing to fight to the death against her (this is also difficult to understand, did the purge of the Dalaran blood elves affect him so deeply, and why, as he has no connection to them), to standing calmly next to her after Baine was arrested by Sylvanas? Does that mean he has forgiven Jaina? Was his personal bond with Baine such that it was sufficient to make him ally with Jaina once again? Would most Horde leaders have turned against Sylvanas if Baine had resisted her from the beginning?

Why did most Alliance leaders apparently support Anduin -- didn't Falstad insist on shattering the Horde in the novel, even before this conflict, and now he is eager to pursue peace? Why is Shandris a borderline pacifist (or at least diplomat) when she was never one in the past? On the contrary, she was a hardened military commander and a Sentinel over 10,000 years old who fought the Horde countless times, not a priestess who talks about compromise and forgiveness, and even going on insisting she would have killed the Highborne had it not been for Tyrande's pardoning them? Even Malfurion seems upset at the Horde, and refused to speak with Thrall, so why is Shandris so sympathetic? I am not saying her attitude is right or wrong, it just seems to be something pulled out of the blue; she has no special bond with the Horde characters like Anduin and Jaina, I don't think she has even directly interacted with one before this expansion. Wouldn't the gentle and calm Malfurion, who actually had a very good relationship with the Horde leaders, and is deeply connected with nature and balance, be a more appropriate foil to Tyrande?

What they did and still doing to Shandris is one of the worst 180 turns in entire game and they do so only to hamfist her as a “better” night elf leader later on.

[Lord Pebbleton]

not gonna argue with shitty writing for horde, but i dont think Sylvanas was afraid Anduin would strike unprovoked, more like Genn would strike unprovoked against Anduins orders and Anduing would do nothing... which is not so unrealistic, since it already happened before...

Even if so, a random skirmish with Genn would have been more reasonable than torching a capital city with 100% guaranteed retaliation by literally everyone. It's like worrying that your feet will get tired after walking some kms, and so you grab a hammer and smash them to avoid being slightly inconvenienced later

[VladlTutushkin]

Even if so, a random skirmish with Genn would have been more reasonable than torching a capital city with 100% guaranteed retaliation by literally everyone. It's like worrying that your feet will get tired after walking some kms, and so you grab a hammer and smash them to avoid being slightly inconvenienced later

Also realistically act on a scale of Teldrassil turns a normal “we fight you, you fight us, then we make peace after some back and forth” war into a total war of extermination when not just resources or land are on the cards but actual survival as a race or nation. Which would have ended only with complete destruction of one or both factions.

[Lolites]

Even if so, a random skirmish with Genn would have been more reasonable than torching a capital city with 100% guaranteed retaliation by literally everyone. It's like worrying that your feet will get tired after walking some kms, and so you grab a hammer and smash them to avoid being slightly inconvenienced later

if it was one skirmish sure, but if you let someone constantly attack you, even if its just small skirmishes, its not gonna stop, it will lead to bigger and bigger attacks, and eventualy to full war... Sylva just skiped ahead to start war while still in strenght...

burning teldrasil was outright stupid (thank writers for that) not gonna argue with that, conquering it (which was original plan as far as we knew at the time, i doubt it now) would be better idea

[OwenBurton]

Peace is a necessary good.
As necessary as Humanity learn to survive without eating.

I mean, it is necessary and it would be very useful. But from what they show us it is impossible

The major theme of the Battle for Azeroth is essentially how some people change and others refuse to change, sometimes positively and sometimes negatively. If you read the novel, Sylvanas's most emotional monologue was about how Anduin was wrong about change -- how she, Alleria and Vereesa, after their failed reunion, were all proof of how people COULD change, but it would not ultimately be for the better. Lady Sun, Lady Moon, and Little Moon have each been darkened and forever altered by their traumas and struggles, and become the Sisters of Shadow, Death and Sorrow. And the novel ended on Anduin realizing Sylvanas would never change -- or want to change. It was why the Horde Council was established -- why things did not go back to Thrall becoming the Warchief -- and it was why Thrall and Jaina reconciled after Baine was released. Jaina told him that THEY were different after he reminded him that things always fell apart.

"Three Sisters share battle.
A dance. A breath.
But the game will be won
by the Sister of Death."
https://twitter.com/SteveDanuser/sta...40114475896832

This was from Steve Danuser's interview:

Concerning the Horde’s future:
“While we’ve had conflicts like the Siege of Orgrimmar, none of those really resolved what the Horde is. Battle for Azeroth is absolutely an opportunity to look at both sides [honorable and evil] that have made up the Horde storylines throughout the years and pull them together. And maybe give a chance for the Horde to look inward and maybe become something new, something stronger than it ever was before.

“We look at this as an opportunity, and the thing is, to get there, we have to look at those scars that have come along the way. That’s the only way we can grow and move beyond, is taking an honest look at the things you’ve done, and nobody is exemplifying that path to the Horde more than what Sylvanas and Saurfang and those other heroes are doing. They are embodying the other aspects of what the Horde was. So to get to the future of the Horde, we have to face the Horde’s past, and face it in a very real and tangible way.”

Concerning the Alliance’s future:
“The Alliance has its share of disparity within it as well, and different facets that have bubbled up over the years…The Alliance is going to have to realign itself. Especially the Night Elves who lose their home. How are they going to react to this? There’s going to be a real self-examination of what the Alliance is about, and how they want to behave. Do they want to get revenge on the Horde, or do they want to build a better world? That’s a question they need to answer.”

[Aresk]

Let's be honest here: the Horde destroyed Stormwind, forced the people of Azeroth (back when Azeroth was a kingdom) to flee north, and then pursued them in an attempt to conquer even more lands. One of the orcs well-known for the razing and butchering of Stormwind was later caught and imprisoned in the city's very stockades, only to be set free and have his escape covered by the Alliance's main intelligence organization. There's very little chance that the Alliance in general will not forgive the Horde; even Tyrande agrees to work with the very Horde champions that fought in the War of Thorns.

From the Horde standpoint, the most influential members are Thrall, an orc raised as a human who understands the Alliance better than his own race's customs; Lor'themar, someone who nearly defected to the Alliance in MoP; Baine, a friend to several Alliance leaders who gets reprimanded by his dead father for being too violent despite being the most pacifistic of the Horde leaders; Thalyssra, who was bailed out of a dire situation by Alliance members working alongside the Horde; and potentially soon Vol'jin, who turned to the Alliance for assistance despite an ongoing war with the Horde during Cataclysm. While Geya'rah and Talanji may prove to be outliers Horde side, even Talanji has begun reconsidering her position, and her patron loa is already working with the Alliance and apologizing for hurting them when they invaded Dazar'alor.

At this point, I'll be surprised if the remaining tensions continue past Shadowlands.

[Thundering]

I think they can as long as the Horde dont keep restarting the war for fun all the time.

[Lord Pebbleton]

if it was one skirmish sure, but if you let someone constantly attack you, even if its just small skirmishes, its not gonna stop, it will lead to bigger and bigger attacks, and eventualy to full war... Sylva just skiped ahead to start war while still in strenght...

burning teldrasil was outright stupid (thank writers for that) not gonna argue with that, conquering it (which was original plan as far as we knew at the time, i doubt it now) would be better idea

With Anduin at the lead, he would have stopped and punished Genn after 1, maximum 2 skirmishes, as soon as he found out.

Also preemptive strike does not equal freaking genocide of an entire race of people "just to be on the safe side"

[Super Dickmann]

Should they? No. Does it make any sense that they do? Of course not. But will they? Yes, they already have, that's why we have that council of bores around Bolvar at the table who's lines and story relevance is interchangable.

[Razion]

There's too many people on either side for it to tip on either side of the scale for too long. Even if many teach and learn all the right lessons, it only takes one bitter resentful and hateful person to do one bad act to break peace. True peace requires there to be not a one evil, and true war requires there to be no one peacemaker. As long as there are good and evil on both sides in incomplete amounts in at least as far as the leadership goes there will be imbalance and the war will not resolve for good or ill. We could compare this to the Force if we wanted to, it'd be an apt comparison.

[TickTickTick]

Do we hate Germany and the German nation, or Hitler? Do we hate Russia and the Russian nation, or Stalin?

The answer is simple: the nature of living beings, not only human, is to be lead or to be leading. That's what we are. Extreme majority of us is being lead each day one way or another.

So let me ask this: should we hate a 20 year old German man, who wasn't even alive during WW2? Should we hate the 80 year old woman, who had nothing to do with this? Should we hate a German soldier who fought for Germany in that war, but realistically speaking he didn't have much choice in that? Desertion is a terrible crime in our world, let alone in the world of Warcraft where you have magical spies and what not.

We should not hate the general folk, even if they themselves commited warcrimes. Should be blame them? Partially - of course. But the main villain, the person most responsible, the person that should be hated, is the leader - the one who lead their people to do what they did, who came with the idea and proceeded with it.

Take a general orc. What choice does he really have? Can't desert and run away, because your warchief or whatever else that's currently threatening Azeroth will find you and kill you. Want to play a hero and try to kill the bad warchief? Good luck with that.

The difference between us, human beings, and the story being told by Blizzard, is that we can use our common sense, while story characters are purposefully written to be dumb, blind, ignorant, or having amnesia. Because, well. Blizzard had to make a choice, either go the direction of "Azeroth is special, many powers want to take her, we need to protect her" or "Alliance and Horde in endless war". They decided to go with both, mix them together, resulting in a bullshit of a story.

[Lolites]

With Anduin at the lead, he would have stopped and punished Genn after 1, maximum 2 skirmishes, as soon as he found out.

well attack in stormheim was a bit more than a skirmish, it was unprovoked attack on reluctant ally against biggest threat the Azeroth ever faced (or at least in past 10k years), during armistice, and it was AGAINST his direct order, and still Anduin did nothing... he was either not capable or not wiling to do anything, both showing that his leadership is weak at best, or just ilusion at worst, with Genn, who does not hide his animosity towards horde, forsaken and especialy sylvanas, being truly in charge...