Solution for M+ leavers....

[Xath]

Raider IO, ability to post reviews for players. LMFAO. Are you guys out of your frigging minds? Solo queue for Mythic + with some kind of an upgraded key system is the only solution here. no more waiting for the majority of your free time either. Too much toxicity in high keys, it's unbearable, and this comes from someone with a damn thick skin. Add it for rated PvP content while at it. WoW's system is archaic, I had most of my non-veteran friends that gave WoW a try over the years complain about this very thing. Less waiting, more playing. Thing is, with so many dinosaurs around I don't see this ever happening, preserving some long-lost notion of 'what was' is more important than the survival of the game, apparently.

That's what the lfg tool is? You are queuing up/building a group from pugs if you want an instant queue just invite the first 4 to signup good luck finishing a dungeon with 5 dps though.

- - - Updated - - -

Gotta admit, I'm a little surprised by your answers too Raspberry.

This is but one example I've quoted here that happens. Vault luck or drop luck can be really bad for people. Not everyone may have the time you have etc.

I have played since classic, raided BWL and was on rank 7 pvp when TBC came, got my vials in TBC, BT playerbase % was super low back then, was in race for ulduar and hardmode mounts in wrath(something like 50th in the world for that race we were), was in top guilds on both sides of server etc. I did +13-+15 keys in Legion etc. Didn't play much of BFA til the tail end and have quit and come back many times. Only just started doing keys again now that I found good guild BUT...

I've done no +10 yet this season or in SL at all. Have done a 9? or maybe 8 last week as my highest since starting keys the other week with this new fun guild.
By your metrics, I am a bad player.

Rio is stupid.
People abuse it. Or misuse it.
Anyone whos played this game long enough knows bad players come in all shapes and sizes, gear scores and Rio's, ilvl's and titles, ranks and rewards.

That site shows none of my skill or experience, and someone coming along to check if I have a current +10, not picking me cause of it and thinking "im a bad player" cause of it, shows all the more reason why it's flawed. Granted, I don't use it and like to run with guild for this very reason. And if I pug I won't even apply to those that do.

How many scarab lords got sold? How many rank 14's? How many aotc's?
One of my friends from classic sold his HWL account, now some fuckboy runs around with it and people who play with him have zero clue. Yet it gives the impression that kids probably knows his pvp right?

Point is, saying someone who didn't do a 10 yet can't play is so lol and so wrong and a very arbitrary metric that is obviously flawed.

Gearscore is dead.
Rio should be as well.
It's caused as many problems as it's supposed to solve. You traded one set of problems for another.

Gearscore was literally implemented into the game lol

[Low Hanging Fruit]

I can see someone wanting MORE data, but to say it's not helpful is just silly. I think this would make R.io MUCH more valuable.

I... agree? Big time?

[Nobody Worth Knowing]

leavers exist because of baddies...

The solution is stupidly simple: Get rid of this "you can't add anyone after it startz!!!" nonsense. Because that is what it is: Utter nonsense.

[Thirtyrock]

leavers exist because of baddies...

You sound like someone who leaves keys a lot. You also sound like someone who would be extremely unpleasant to play with.

I hope this is just your mmo-champ persona and you’re not actually that big of a jerk.

[Thirtyrock]

nobody leaves a good run unless they have an emergency...

and yes, i will leave if people play badly... necrotic week... dh is reaching healing immunity on trash... i grip him out because he's going to die otherwise... he jump straight back into the pack... i left instantly... i'm not putting up with bad players like that...

wiping on stitchflesh because i'm going oom because they can't hit hooks? i'm not staying in that group either...

Do you bother expressing what needs to change? Do you try to help the group as a whole? Or do you just figure “I’m not getting anything out of this, I’m out”?

I genuinely hope we don’t run into each other in game. You don’t sound fun to be around.

Anyways, I don’t see much value in continuing a conversation with you. Good day.

[Thirtyrock]

maybe they shouldn't do content they're not ready for... if you need to be told stuff that you should have learned in low keys or even in normal/normal mythic dungeons when you're in 15-18 keys then you've got yourself to blame if people leave...

I said GOOD DAY

[Twdft]

The solution is stupidly simple: Get rid of this "you can't add anyone after it startz!!!" nonsense. Because that is what it is: Utter nonsense.

How long do you think it will take after being able to add a player after start for the first forum thread "dungeon was going really well, we were about to 2 chest it when I was suddenly kicked and the other dudes invited a friend for a free 15"...

[Hollycakes]

lel, no one is claiming old raid xp should get anyone invited. No idea how or why you would take it that way lol but it's par for the course here.

Point is, it doesn't show peoples actual skill at the game as was claimed.

The claim was anyone under 800 is bad at the game.

Which is demonstrably false.


I even said I don't use it or run with people that do.
This only further proves why I don't.
Try reading harder.


Not even sure why I come to this site anymore.
The stupidity here is unbearable.

[KOUNTERPARTS]

leavers exist because of baddies...

This is not true.

nobody leaves a good run unless they have an emergency...

This is also not true.

[Alydael]

There is a real easy fix for this actually.

Just have an in game stat (that is visible to other players) that gives a percentage based on how often you leave before the dungeon is finished.

I know that people will say "What if you are disconnected or have to leave for an in life reason." That should only happen rarely, rare enough not to really matter in the percentage. If it happens frequently- then the other players in the key have the right to know that you frequently disconnect or have to leave because you are busy in RL. It's only fair because it might affect them.
Besides- you should only really join a group if you know that you will be able to complete the dungeon. I wouldn't join a group if my connection was unstable or if I knew there was a RL thing coming up that might interfere with the run.

I also think that Raider.io should take the initiative in this (since so many raiders actually use their service in a way that negatively affects the community as a whole, and I think that service has had an overall more negative than positive impact on the mythic plus scene.) and apply a penalty and note to the stats of the people that leave.

Someone leaving makes it almost impossible to complete the key- so it should def. negatively affect that persons io score.

[Glorious Leader]

There is a real easy fix for this actually.

Just have an in game stat (that is visible to other players) that gives a percentage based on how often you leave before the dungeon is finished.

I know that people will say "What if you are disconnected or have to leave for an in life reason." That should only happen rarely, rare enough not to really matter in the percentage. If it happens frequently- then the other players in the key have the right to know that you frequently disconnect or have to leave because you are busy in RL. It's only fair because it might affect them.
Besides- you should only really join a group if you know that you will be able to complete the dungeon. I wouldn't join a group if my connection was unstable or if I knew there was a RL thing coming up that might interfere with the run.

I also think that Raider.io should take the initiative in this (since so many raiders actually use their service in a way that negatively affects the community as a whole, and I think that service has had an overall more negative than positive impact on the mythic plus scene.) and apply a penalty and note to the stats of the people that leave.

Someone leaving makes it almost impossible to complete the key- so it should def. negatively affect that persons io score.

This is the worst idea you could possible come up with. Like let's say 2 people leave the group first and it completely falls apart. I'd still get dinged as a leaver though because the group fell apart and the dungeon wasn't completed

[T-34]

I also think that Raider.io should take the initiative in this (since so many raiders actually use their service in a way that negatively affects the community as a whole, and I think that service has had an overall more negative than positive impact on the mythic plus scene.) and apply a penalty and note to the stats of the people that leave.

If you by negative mean that good players with the help of raider.io have it easier to find other good players and bad players have it more difficult now to be carried on false pretences then I completely agree with you.

Raider.io is the best thing that has happened for players that care about their performance and respect other people's time and expect the same respect from their fellow players.
Raider.io is the worst thing that has happened for the wilfully bad that have no respect for their fellow players time and that require the players that care to carry them through content.

P.S.
People play this game for a variety of reasons and have very different definition of fun, so any claim that there is "a community" is simple untrue.
I for one am certainly not part of your community with your views on raider.io.
That doesn't make you "a bad person" in any way whatsoever, but just shows that yours and my view on fun are mutually exclusive.

[Tziva]

There is a real easy fix for this actually.

Just have an in game stat (that is visible to other players) that gives a percentage based on how often you leave before the dungeon is finished.

I know that people will say "What if you are disconnected or have to leave for an in life reason." That should only happen rarely, rare enough not to really matter in the percentage. If it happens
frequently- then the other players in the key have the right to know that you frequently disconnect or have to leave because you are busy in RL. It's only fair because it might affect them.
Besides- you should only really join a group if you know that you will be able to complete the dungeon. I wouldn't join a group if my connection was unstable or if I knew there was a RL thing coming up that might interfere with the run.

It's not an easy fix because right now there is literally no way to track this. That data would have to be recorded and available to pull.

It's also not a good fix. First, it would have to identify exclusively the person who left first (and again, this would have to be recorded publically and be available by API call), otherwise you're dinging four innocent people for every malicious leaver. However, even if it only recorded the first person to leave, it would catch still people who drop key levels intentionally, as well as groups where people mutually agreed to disband the run, both of which are not uncommon behaviour. It would also penalise people who left because, say, someone else in their group disconnected and the run was unfinishable.

That's not even counting the social impact it would have on play. As I mentioned earlier in a thread, if you start punishing people for leaving, then they just won't. They'll stay in the group and afk or grief people until someone else who is innocent caves and leaves first. At best, this is going to waste even more time than just dealing with a leaver would have. At worst, it's going to penalise innocent people and create more toxicity in PuGing.

Ultimately, the people this system would hurt are the people who PuG a lot and are going to encounter these scenarios the most. Since those people are also the ones who are most impacted by leavers, you are creating a case where the medicine is worse than the disease. Leavers suck, but right now all they cost you is some wasted minutes and a single key level. Anything that can potentially cost you more than that (whether it's a flag on your account that makes it harder to get groups, or increasing time wasted while you deal with a guy who won't leave but also won't finish the run) is absolutely not worth implementing.

I also think that Raider.io should take the initiative in this (since so many raiders actually use their service in a way that negatively affects the community as a whole, and I think that service has had an overall more negative than positive impact on the mythic plus scene.) and apply a penalty and note to the stats of the people that leave.

Raider.io literally could not take initiative on this even if they wanted to because Blizzard would first have to start recording that data and adding it to the API before they could do anything like this.

[Magneto]

Well, then you should probably not play that game if it doesn't have a "healthy approach..."
Why can't you people just admit that you can't handle the pressure and do content that fits your mentality better?

You are very funny, what ever makes you think what you think and the conclusion you draw from it is really, really wrong. You are the example it is unhealthy to some. your subjective character of experience is one of the negative effects.

[Nobody Worth Knowing]

How long do you think it will take after being able to add a player after start for the first forum thread "dungeon was going really well, we were about to 2 chest it when I was suddenly kicked and the other dudes invited a friend for a free 15"...

Don't care. That's less of a problem for me than the other way around.

If you can't find friends or join a guild, that's on you. PUGgers mean absolutely nothing to me.

[Thirtyrock]

I think what happens to me is that the worst people are so freaking crazy that it sticks in your head. I tried to tank a Spires +8 today. This is a low key for me, but I've focused on specific dungeons one at a time to build up skills before moving to the next, and this was just a research run. Mage in the run yelling at me every single time something went wrong. There was one moment where the healer died and we were waiting for him to run back, mage ran ahead into stealthed mobs and blamed me. On Ventunax, any time someone got hit by an orb, he blamed me. He was from Ragnaros so he had trouble communicating with me, so he was just yelling insults IN ALL CAPS every time something happened.

It got out of control at Oryphion. He told everyone it was my job to soak every single orb from the boss. Orbs not stacked at all (again, it's a plus 8) and I don't have an immunity (I'm a monk - I could use zen med basically once a pull but that's not an immunity), and btw, he was the worst offender at not stacking. I was doing my damnedest to soak (I soaked 6 first ordinance, 5 second) but he was just endlessly yelling at me and calling me a "RETARDO". We had an 8% wipe where I soaked 5 and no one else soaked any so 5 hit the boss and we wiped. The mage went absolutely berserk at me for not soaking all 10. I tried to explain to him that it was impossible and that others needed to help, but nope, I'm a "retardo".

After 4-5 wipes, another person in the group left and we disbanded.

So yeah, that experience sticks in your head, even if it only happens 1 out of 10 times.

I think he might have had some points - the Ventunax orb placement could have been better, and one time where he just started randomly yelling "LOS" halfway through a pull, I looked it up later and that pull would be easier with an LOS, but it was a freaking +8. He was clearly also parroting guides that he read online without realizing that he himself was not playing nearly at the skill level needed to execute those strategies - he died on the pull yelling "LOS" because he bursted while I was gathering mobs, and as stated earlier on Oryphion he wasn't stacking his orb. But it's a lot easier to just yell at others and blame the tank than it is to try to play better yourself.

To be fair, I had a bad experience this morning. HOA 12. We're not even to the first mini boss and the key holder accidentally whispers me "this mage and tank are terrible, I don't think we'll make it" I was the tank.

At this point, absolutely nothing had gone wrong except he'd pulled aggro on some stuff because he didn't even wait for me to Infernal Strike into the group to start dpsing. I ask him if I should just leave? it was his key and if he wanted to kill it, I'd've been just as glad to leave him to it.

We proceed to the other side and he pulls an extra group using Fel rush. I ask people to be careful.
We jump down to the third mini boss, he again pulls extra and dies. The rest of us do fine, kill the trash. He's the only one with any deaths at this point.

We down the first boss, the second boss, the third boss...etc. We timed the key. He had 5 deaths to the whole groups 0. Smooth run, overall, though the time was close (I tried to LOS the last miniboss so we could burn him and avoid most of the bombs spawning, but he and 1 other DPS stayed out in the room, so it took FOREVER).

It was pretty frustrating. I still don't know why he said I was a bad tank. I called him on it, he trashed me some more, and I put him on ignore. I've had like 4 timed 10-13s today, with almost no difficulties, but that run is the one sticking in my head. Even though it didn't go bad, his reaction is stuck in my head.

[ydraw]

The solution is to get better at playing the game and to only invite others who know their class and the dungeon you'redoing. People aren't going to leave a flawlessly run dungeon. People leave when people screw up so hard that you don't want to waste your time because you won't time it either way.

This simply isn't true. People leave for all sorts of bullshit reasons.

Last week I had a tank leave on the final boss of mists after he himself failed a mechanic and died, leading to a wipe. He got hit by multiple acid expulsions and died, we wiped then he immediately left. Was the first wipe of the run, in a key advertised as weekly completion.

People also leave due to reasons completely unrelated to gameplay. I've had keys fail because the tank and healer had an argument about which was the best trash path, and the one of them ragequit. Despite the fact that either way would have been fine.

[Lefrog]

This simply isn't true. People leave for all sorts of bullshit reasons.

Last week I had a tank leave on the final boss of mists after he himself failed a mechanic and died, leading to a wipe. He got hit by multiple acid expulsions and died, we wiped then he immediately left. Was the first wipe of the run, in a key advertised as weekly completion.

People also leave due to reasons completely unrelated to gameplay. I've had keys fail because the tank and healer had an argument about which was the best trash path, and the one of them ragequit. Despite the fact that either way would have been fine.

Who has time to argue paths in a flawlessly executed run? Sounds like the dps might have been a little slow to kill or the tank hesitating? I've seen plenty of non-meta paths taken, but when everything dies in 2 seconds and you can tell you're going to easily make it, no one usually cares lol. Your first example isn't a flaweless run.

I'll be honest...I recently rerolled and am working my way through 9-12s and usually just leave at the first sign of a troubled run. I don't need the gear and I always make it clear that I'm interested in a timed run (unless I'm desperate for a key for the vault).

By biggest issue is with people not stepping up and saying they don't know mechanics (on a 9-12) ahead of time or apologizing for forgetting one after the fact. It's like we go in to second boss of plaguefall and the tank brings the purple slime to the bomb slime and we wipe. Not one word from him...so now I'm not even invested in the people in my key. We wipe on the spider boss due to failed stacking (not the tanks fault) and the timer is looking kinda tight...I don't even care any more I just leave.

I've stayed so many times cuz of a "sorry guys I forgot about that" and "crap we not gonna make it, but let's still complete!" When people are social it's so much harder for me to leave the pug.

[Tziva]

Arguing happens.

I was in a full PuG Mists 14 last week advertised as a "+2 guaranteed" (which I should consider a warning sign at this point). We were doing fine, no deaths, on maze trash when the tank (whose key it was) just suddenly stops and starts chewing out the mage for not being Fire spec. Their DPS was still solid, keeping up with the other two meta spec'd DPS, and we were well on pace to make the timer. One of the other DPS asked why it suddenly mattered now and why he didn't check specs before we started if he cared that much, and the tank starts calling everyone slurs and ranting about how this was a guarantee +2 and that means people should know to be min/maxing before signing up. Now we've spent several minutes just arguing about the poor mage instead of killing shit in a run that was going great until that point. One of the non-mage DPS finally says fuck this if we're just going to stand around chatting, and drops group.

The kicker to me is that the tank wanted the rest of us to stay in the group so we could reset and +2 his now 13 key instead but yeah noooofuckingthanks.

[Vargulf the Happy Husky]

just don't lower the key if the group doesnt kill the last boss. then it's just time wasted, with no way to exploit the m+ system. now, say for example a group gets to the last boss then bombs and the timer runs out. who cares? quit and try again with no effect on the difficulty level. maybe add some type of NPC that allows you to lower a key if the keyholder chooses to. if someone quits the group randomly, who cares? jump out, replace, start over