Do you support universal health care? Why or why not?

[Themius]

One hospital... how much is a c-section? 6k-60k

https://www.wsj.com/articles/how-muc...d=hp_lead_pos5

When a woman gets a caesarean section at the gleaming new Van Ness location of Sutter Health’s California Pacific Medical Center, the price might be $6,241. Or $29,257. Or $38,264. It could even go as high as $60,584.

The rate the hospital charges depends on the insurance plan covering the birth. At the bottom end of the scale is a local health plan that serves largely Medicaid recipients. At the top are prices for women whose plans don’t have the San Francisco hospital in their insurers’ network.

The nation’s roughly 6,000 hospitals have begun to reveal the secret rates they negotiate with insurers for a range of procedures. The data offer the first full look inside the confidential deals that set healthcare rates for insurers and employers covering more than 175 million Americans. The submissions also illuminate how widely prices vary—even for the same procedure, performed in the same facility—depending on who is paying.

“It is shining a light on the insanity of U.S. healthcare pricing,” said Niall Brennan, chief executive of the Health Care Cost Institute, a nonprofit that analyzes medical costs. “It’s at the center of the affordability crisis in American healthcare.”

[JohnBrown1917]

Shittier how? And for who? Here's a hint: I don't give a flying fuck about averages. I only care about achievers and people who decently represent the capabilities of humanity.


Cool, he can think he's worth that all he wants. No one cares, and if he doesn't have the actual means of backing that up, then he's delusional and should be forced to reconcile that.


Nah, it only worsens it in certain ways that you personally care about. It makes it better in some. People should be free to exploit desperation as much as they're able. Maybe don't be so weak or helpless that you can be exploited. Maybe we should let that suffering be a lesson as to why you should strive harder to avoid it, and maybe we should afford people the freedom to decide how much or how little they universally care about humanity.

Better for anybody who wants a vaccine against lung cancer... oh and for healthcare to be cheaper.

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I make no supposition. I could see most of the poor working class not being worth saving to society, but I don't presume to make that choice for them. However many people live when people are left to freely share as much help as they want is the exact number of people who are worth saving.

I get it, you want to go back to feudalism.

[Kasierith]

Except it does, because people have limited resources at their disposal to trade for those goods. So, even if they personally value their lives infinitely, others do not, and they have limited resources. Even if you'd give $1,000,000 just to live one more day, if you don't actually HAVE $1,000,000, you can't do that. I think it's important to force people to reconcile with the reality that they don't have infinite value and that some people just don't care about them.

So the basis of universal healthcare is that 1) those costs are socialized. They are born by the entire population, and for a population of 350 million a million dollars isn't actually a huge burden. 2) the reason it costs 1,000,000 is typically less due to the actual costs of product and labor, and more due to drug companies and healthcare services being able to set their prices in a market with a thousand different payers, none of which have the capacity to set terms. In Germany, for example, the government decides the costs of all services up front, taking into account the skill and labor involved, the cost of the product, and the cost of competitor products compared to relative efficacy. If a company wants to charge 20% more for a product that is statistically inferior to the reference product, Germany can tell them to shove it, or come back with a lower price. In the US all they have to do is market it aggressively and get enough doctors and systems on board to create demand, at which point insurance companies will inevitably have to add it to formularies to avoid lawsuits (and pass the cost on to their consumers)

[schwank05]

I would be for it in a perfect world, but unfortuantely we do not live in a perfect world. If you go the Universal Healthcare route you remove all incentive from the market. Why spend 10+ years in medical school if you are going to be dictated how much money you can make by the government? You will have no more innovation in drug development because there will be no incentive to spend billions developing life saving medicine if there is no way to make money doing it.

Before Covid our biggest cause of National debt was all of the money that the government has stolen from people for decades via Social Security and then gives them less than half of that money back, but in the end they don't have enough to pay out to all the giant pensions and SS that they owe people. It is going to take a generation to say F this I am willing to give up 20 years of SS so that it does not keep screwing me out of money and my kids in the future I am willing to do that give up all the money I have paid in so I can be done with having it continually stolen the rest of my life.

[BeepBoo]

unfeeling twat you are?

Nope, I feel plenty.

We get it, you don't give a fuck about anyone but yourself

Do you actually believe this? Or are you just exaggerating the fact that I seem to be fine with some people dying as a result of effectively being shunned by the society they're surrounded with? I have friends, a job, I'm married, etc

just let those poor people die, right?

If they can't garner the help and support of willing participants and they die due to that, then yes, let them die.

You're the biggest example on these forums of what is wrong with so many Americans.

Stop binding people together. Let those ties form naturally, and let those who can't form ties (especially in cases where they can't form ties but REALLY need them) go. Not that hard.

[JohnBrown1917]

I would be for it in a perfect world, but unfortuantely we do not live in a perfect world. If you go the Universal Healthcare route you remove all incentive from the market. Why spend 10+ years in medical school if you are going to be dictated how much money you can make by the government? You will have no more innovation in drug development because there will be no incentive to spend billions developing life saving medicine if there is no way to make money doing it.

Before Covid our biggest cause of National debt was all of the money that the government has stolen from people for decades via Social Security and then gives them less than half of that money back, but in the end they don't have enough to pay out to all the giant pensions and SS that they owe people. It is going to take a generation to say F this I am willing to give up 20 years of SS so that it does not keep screwing me out of money and my kids in the future I am willing to do that give up all the money I have paid in so I can be done with having it continually stolen the rest of my life.

Yeah, thats why the first covid vaccine came from Germany or why Cuba has a ton of doctors.

[Ivanstone]

I would be for it in a perfect world, but unfortuantely we do not live in a perfect world. If you go the Universal Healthcare route you remove all incentive from the market. Why spend 10+ years in medical school if you are going to be dictated how much money you can make by the government? You will have no more innovation in drug development because there will be no incentive to spend billions developing life saving medicine if there is no way to make money doing it.

Before Covid our biggest cause of National debt was all of the money that the government has stolen from people for decades via Social Security and then gives them less than half of that money back, but in the end they don't have enough to pay out to all the giant pensions and SS that they owe people. It is going to take a generation to say F this I am willing to give up 20 years of SS so that it does not keep screwing me out of money and my kids in the future I am willing to do that give up all the money I have paid in so I can be done with having it continually stolen the rest of my life.

Did it occur to you that people go to medical school because they want to practice medicine? Furthermore, its the management and executives of corporations making most of the money.

Drug innovation is mostly done by the government already. Drug company R&D is mostly trying to refresh patents they own so they can bleed people for more money.

Social security is a closed system and has nothing to do with the debt or deficit.

A massive portion of the US debt is from healthcare spending. Why is it out of control? Because the government is giving out massive amounts of money to previously mentioned corporations who jack up prices because they can get away with it.

[Zan15]

One hospital... how much is a c-section? 6k-60k

https://www.wsj.com/articles/how-muc...d=hp_lead_pos5

Well the actual cost is the same its just how much they get paid, based on the WSJ assumption that every service under one code is the same (which is a huge glaring mistake)
More of an insurance issue than a hospital issue.



The 6k amount is regulated by the govt under Medicaid. This is a huge Medicaid hospital per the article so they do not want to lose that business so they accept the rate and patients.

The 60k is how much insurance companies who chose to not contract with the hospital so they are not sending patients there unless its an emergency or the patient decides to absorb the cost knowing its out of network.

Also the WSJ does not point out in the full article that the cost varies based on the services provided during a C-Section. Even those billed under the same "codes". So its not shocking that a hospital that has a discount off billed charges pays more than a hospital that has a flat rate contracted allowance.

WSJ also fails to provide what the actual cost of a C-Section is to the hospital. Is it 6k?10k?40k? How much do they lose on Medicaid C-Sections that need to be made up on other bills? How many patients who would normally see a bill for 60k end up paying $0 because they get charity care? How many times is the 60k rate paid in full by an insurance company because of an emergency delivery when they were planned for an in-network hospital delivery? etc etc.

WSJ also incorrectly says "charged" a lot and when it does use it appropriately it does not substantiate that not all C-Section patients receive the exact same services. It does not take into account that a patient could be in labor at the hospital for 11 hours before they decide to do a C-Section vs a pre-planned C-Section because of circumstances. Gee i wonder which bill will be bigger. Its the same "billing code" but those codes allow for a shit ton of variances. Hell you can have 25,000 worth of medication because of underlying pre existing conditions and it will still be billed under the same C-Section "code" as a standard no problem C-Section code.

I'd love to see the actual WSJ data on this.

The hospital most likely does not charge different amounts, but they do have different "contractual allowances". They do not maintain a different charge master for each entity it would run afoul of CMS rules.

This whole article is basically a WOW piece and headline fodder. But then again the actual details would melt eyes since its so complicated that even a single code would need pages and pages of quantification and analysis.




Granted this basically proves how we are already paying for other people's health care without even knowing it. This is how the hospital makes up for the 6k payment from Medicaid. How they pay for charity care. etc etc.
Though Medicaid, Medicare, VA, ACA, and charity care spending already prove this in spades.

It shows how we can pay for a universal system because we are basically already funding one.

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I would be for it in a perfect world, but unfortuantely we do not live in a perfect world. If you go the Universal Healthcare route you remove all incentive from the market. Why spend 10+ years in medical school if you are going to be dictated how much money you can make by the government? You will have no more innovation in drug development because there will be no incentive to spend billions developing life saving medicine if there is no way to make money doing it.

.

Your first paragraph has been disproven a billion times over by companies in other countries that have universal healthcare and the fact that most research is non profit. Hell the first COVID vaccine was finished in Germany first wasn't it not to mention vaccines created in other countries like China and Russia not for profit....???

Before Covid our biggest cause of National debt was all of the money that the government has stolen from people for decades via Social Security and then gives them less than half of that money back, but in the end they don't have enough to pay out to all the giant pensions and SS that they owe people. It is going to take a generation to say F this I am willing to give up 20 years of SS so that it does not keep screwing me out of money and my kids in the future I am willing to do that give up all the money I have paid in so I can be done with having it continually stolen the rest of my life.

You know that no money has ever been stolen from people from Social Security right?
No money has ever been used for anything but SS payments and investments in bonds so SS money collects interest. Not a dime has ever left SS, that has not paid for SS operations and payments of benefits.

SS pays out on average way more than people pay in because of investment/interest gains. Its one of the reasons why its going to be unable to fund its future cost its actually way to generous.

SS does not pay out pensions.

You sound like someone who should go and actually read up on how SS works.

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You mean the poor and working class are not worth saving. Just be honest.

Does every post you make just serve to remind everyone what an unfeeling twat you are? We get it, you don't give a fuck about anyone but yourself, just let those poor people die, right? You're the biggest example on these forums of what is wrong with so many Americans.

Oh god can we not devolve again with this dude and derail the thread on his fake logic.

He's just doing it to get a rise out of everyone and it adds nothing to the discussion.

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I would be for it in a perfect world, but unfortuantely we do not live in a perfect world. If you go the Universal Healthcare route you remove all incentive from the market. Why spend 10+ years in medical school if you are going to be dictated how much money you can make by the government? You will have no more innovation in drug development because there will be no incentive to spend billions developing life saving medicine if there is no way to make money doing it.

.

btw doctors still make 200-300-500-600k+ in Canada a year and have way less expenses overall.

[Twdft]

One hospital... how much is a c-section? 6k-60k

https://www.wsj.com/articles/how-muc...d=hp_lead_pos5

I am always amazed at American prices for healthcare. C-section is about €3k in Germany, natural childbirth a bit more than half of that.

[Muzjhath]

The 6k amount is regulated by the govt under Medicaid. This is a huge Medicaid hospital per the article so they do not want to lose that business so they accept the rate and patients.

The 60k is how much insurance companies who chose to not contract with the hospital so they are not sending patients there unless its an emergency or the patient decides to absorb the cost knowing its out of network.

So, you're saying that it's the insurance companies that are the issue with healthcare in America?

[kail]

So, you're saying that it's the insurance companies that are the issue with healthcare in America?

They are the symptom. If the healthcare industry exists to make a profit, expect the costs and anti-consumer practices.

[Zan15]

So, you're saying that it's the insurance companies that are the issue with healthcare in America?

Its one of them.

Of course in this example the insurance company limits access to expensive hospital to save on premiums for its customers.

If you have 6 hospitals in a 10 mile radius insurance companies will exclude one or many if they are outliers in expense to cut premiums for customers. Not such a horrible thing in a world where getting a clear picture on charges before you have a service is near impossible.

[Theodarzna]

Shittier how? And for who? Here's a hint: I don't give a flying fuck about averages. I only care about achievers and people who decently represent the capabilities of humanity.

Ah, the MovieBob take.

[Masark]

https://whnt.com/news/i-hope-i-make-...ain-surgeries/

This is what you support when you oppose universal healthcare.

[Vash The Stampede]

https://whnt.com/news/i-hope-i-make-...ain-surgeries/

This is what you support when you oppose universal healthcare.

You're doing it wrong. You need to link a photo of her to make those who oppose universal healthcare feel bad. She needs it to stop the seizures.

[Theodarzna]

https://whnt.com/news/i-hope-i-make-...ain-surgeries/

This is what you support when you oppose universal healthcare.

I can't believe President Joe Biden doesn't believe she should get free at point of service health care services.

If Only America had had a politician who wanted to create a UHS.

[Zan15]

I can't believe President Joe Biden doesn't believe she should get free at point of service health care services.

If Only America had had a politician who wanted to create a UHS.

Take out of context much?
“I would veto anything that delays providing the security and the certainty of health care being available now,”

Year old clip does not mean what you think it does.


https://joebiden.com/healthcare/

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https://whnt.com/news/i-hope-i-make-...ain-surgeries/

This is what you support when you oppose universal healthcare.

good thing at least for the ACA and she was able to buy extra insurance after the diagnosis.


So she was looking for money for the 10k out of pocket, travel and hotel cost?

$150,766
Hmm, i guess she got it at least there is good news. Wonder if they will donate the excess to other people who have the same need?

[Theodarzna]

Take out of context much?
“I would veto anything that delays providing the security and the certainty of health care being available now,”

Year old clip does not mean what you think it does.


https://joebiden.com/healthcare/

So a nothing answer, Health Care is available to all right now.*

*If you can pay for it.

[Zan15]

So a nothing answer, Health Care is available to all right now.*

*If you can pay for it.

That's not what that says either.

[Theodarzna]

That's not what that says either.

First, I am sure according to Joe Biden, Joe Biden's a good guy. Solid sourcing. But his plan is still a privatized system and he opposes Universal Health Care. Unless you believe that is what Obamacare is in which case you might want to read up on what a Universal Health Care system is.