Solution for M+ leavers....

[munkeyinorbit]

not really...

useful data points would be how often someone declines to kill explosives... how often someone doesn't outrange shard's aoe in hoa... how often people get hit by the curse on 2nd boss in sanguine depths... how often people renew bursting that's about to expire... their dps... how many interrupts they have... how often they use mitigation abilities...

those are useful... someone having left keys is not useful at all...

Doesn't askmrrobot have stuff like this?

[T-34]

You are very funny, what ever makes you think what you think and the conclusion you draw from it is really, really wrong. You are the example it is unhealthy to some. your subjective character of experience is one of the negative effects.

I wonder who made you a specialist in the psychological impact of certain game modes on people?
My point stands: Don't do M+ if you don't like it.

I don't like PvP and therefore I don't do it. In my lay-man opinion, because compared to you I am a lay-man, that is a healthy approach.
But I do M+ because I like it. Try out playing like I do, you might like it.

[Glorious Leader]

Arguing happens.

I was in a full PuG Mists 14 last week advertised as a "+2 guaranteed" (which I should consider a warning sign at this point). We were doing fine, no deaths, on maze trash when the tank (whose key it was) just suddenly stops and starts chewing out the mage for not being Fire spec. Their DPS was still solid, keeping up with the other two meta spec'd DPS, and we were well on pace to make the timer. One of the other DPS asked why it suddenly mattered now and why he didn't check specs before we started if he cared that much, and the tank starts calling everyone slurs and ranting about how this was a guarantee +2 and that means people should know to be min/maxing before signing up. Now we've spent several minutes just arguing about the poor mage instead of killing shit in a run that was going great until that point. One of the non-mage DPS finally says fuck this if we're just going to stand around chatting, and drops group.

The kicker to me is that the tank wanted the rest of us to stay in the group so we could reset and +2 his now 13 key instead but yeah noooofuckingthanks.

As a healer I cannot count the number of times some idiot, usually somebody in melee will die to some ability they could avoid and then have the audacity to type in paty chat "healer wtf.." or my favorite "healer why your hps so low" as if pressing every button simultaneously in an orgy of healing would save them.

Why ANYBODY would expect me to stay after that is beyond me. The best system to prevent or mitigate leaving is simple humility.

[Alroxas]

just don't lower the key if the group doesnt kill the last boss. then it's just time wasted, with no way to exploit the m+ system. now, say for example a group gets to the last boss then bombs and the timer runs out. who cares? quit and try again with no effect on the difficulty level. maybe add some type of NPC that allows you to lower a key if the keyholder chooses to. if someone quits the group randomly, who cares? jump out, replace, start over

That can promote negative game play. Think about it: Oh no we're about to run out of time, reset. Oh no, we had a party wipe (but could still make the timer), let's reset. Oh no, we had 1 death by a DPS (and it's still early in the dungeon), let's reset.

There needs to be a minimal cost for resetting that discourages excessive resetting.

[clevin]

Look, the simple fact of the matter is that no solution will be perfect and it's likely that any solution will still hurt a lot of people, just different ones.

Bluntly, this is a risk when you PUG. You know that this can happen and that it will deplete your key. Yeah, raider.io will help you screen things but it's always going to be a risk when you go with 4 people you don't know. None of this should be a surprise, so you have a few options:

1) Deal with it. If this happens to you 1 in 10 runs, just suck it up and move on. If it's happening 1 in 3 runs... look at how you build groups (if you are) or how you decide on which groups to join.
2) Find a group that does regular keys. This might be a wide group of people than just 4 others so you have known good people around if Bob can't play or whatever.
3) Kind of like 2, use the Community feature of WoW to create a community or join an existing one.
4) Less likely, but find a larger guild that's active in M+ and where schedules work for you (if they're raiding on Wed and Friday and those are the days you can do M+, that wouldn't work)

[tehealadin]

yes it is... i just tried to do a +9 mists on my alt druid... i am doing 6k hps and people are still dying and try to pin the blame on my hps lol and then i left... i shouldn't even have to do 6k hps in a +9... my average when finishing a +15 on my priest is 4k...

It can be such a pain, I am remembering now why I always end up benching my healer by the end of season 1.

Slightly different angle, mines is a pally and was doing HoA, and I kept getting shit for not decursing. We had a druid and a mage in the group. They didn't do it once. The mage didn't even know he could do it, but once he did, still refused. He kept getting hit by everything. "Nice healing" was said at least once in a sarcastic tone.

I suspect there are a lot of people who have never healed. And it can show in their play style and attitude.

[erifwodahs]

The solution is stupidly simple: Get rid of this "you can't add anyone after it startz!!!" nonsense. Because that is what it is: Utter nonsense.

Lol, you don't care about puggers, why would you care about solving this problem at all? There is no problem for you.

[potis]

I suspect there are a lot of people who have never healed. And it can show in their play style and attitude.

It has nothing to do with healing, its lack of general knowledge.

People simply do not know the game and are getting carried by others and rotational M+, you can see this at any time of the expansion mostly in the 7-12 M+ range, where when its Tyrannical in +7 the trash abilities are mostly irrelevant, but when its Fortified people still havent learnt what to interrupt since it didnt matter, and they simply wipe on trash packs because either the damage wasnt enough to 1 shot them previous week, or someone else interrupt it for them that had half a clue.

The general populace is simply lacking basic sense, logic, and game knowledge, which in turn makes them horrendously bad at the game.

I have said this multiple times before, if they were 4 copies of you, can you complete a +15 because you can do everything and know what the fuck is happening? No? Then stop being clueless and learn the game.

It was easier for me to heal a +14 on my alt with people with half-knowledge than a +9 with some other people because of the lack knowledge, aka interrupts and i aint a good healer, i had to switch my UI after 11 years to get better healing frame positions since i only use raid frames to track the failing of my raiders, and not actually heal.

[slime]

Geezus. I think I grouped with that lock before.

[ydraw]

Who has time to argue paths in a flawlessly executed run?

Some people are just control freaks.

I don't really care if you believe me or not, this shit happens and it's not even that rare especially at low levels which are full of bad players who lash at out others in frustration.

[Nobody Worth Knowing]

Lol, you don't care about puggers, why would you care about solving this problem at all? There is no problem for you.

Didn't say it was a problem for me.

It's a solution to the problem nevertheless.

"Lol"

[secondgasp]

There isn't an easy fix or it probably would have been implemented already.

Any kind of automated system that would punish people for leaving, would also inadvertently punish innocent people as well or cause other repercussions by people refusing to leave to avoid punishment. Just to use your example, say the warlock would get penalised somehow for leaving so instead he decides to just /dance at the entrance instead and go make himself a sandwich. Now the rest of you are hostage because if you leave, you'll get punished for what is essentially not your fault.

they don't even have to just /dance, some people unironically continue the key but act malicious by pulling extra or beginning to underperform in an attempt to get others to leave so they aren't the one that leaves first

i would love to see a league tribunal or valve's overwatch style system implemented for these kinds of reports/infractions but that would require time money resources by blizzard to program and vet trust worthy individuals to be apart of this (although they do have a trust system on forums). i would've like to see wowprogress m+ karma take off but thats just as abuseable as anything else

i think blizzard believes community left to its own devices will solve it even though if this issue was to be constantly flagged or reported it would be revealed to be a much, much bigger issue but its almost become accepted at this point your key might be griefed or if it isn't going to be timed the key is done for

[Progenitor Aquarius]

He just probably lost patience. Three times the same mistake must feel bad and the key was already ruined so he just decided to ditch.

[arr0gance]

they don't even have to just /dance, some people unironically continue the key but act malicious by pulling extra or beginning to underperform in an attempt to get others to leave so they aren't the one that leaves first

i would love to see a league tribunal or valve's overwatch style system implemented for these kinds of reports/infractions but that would require time money resources by blizzard to program and vet trust worthy individuals to be apart of this (although they do have a trust system on forums). i would've like to see wowprogress m+ karma take off but thats just as abuseable as anything else

Are you really so naïve as to believe such a system wouldn't just be full of shit like, "from Ragnaros LUL" or "plays frost liek a nub, y he no play fier"?

[Tziva]

So I had a super amusing leaver earlier this week. It was before the key started, so it doesn't really count, but it was so weird, I have to note it.

Has a guy leave the group -- a group he made -- because we summoned him (we were at the stone and he was still in Oribos).



Apparently summoning people is creepy and cultish! He immediately relisted the key for a new group too, so it wasn't like he changed his mind about the key or something came up and he just wanted to say something ridiculous as he was leaving.

[crazyman2]

Honestly, any attempts to deal with negative player behavior usually results in alternative negative behaviour that was worse than the original problem they tried to fix.

Instead of punishing the leavers.
Allow people to resume timed out keys with other players. Missed keys don't go on leaderboard to prevent abuse, but do give loot/vault.

Give the key lead the option to automatically deplete the timer when a player leaves. You'd have to distinguish people leaving from people getting kicked, cause I could easily see some asshole kicking a pug right before the final boss just to throw some gear at a friend.

The only real negative I can see there is that it'd be a lot easier for the groups selling gear, but it's not like that's difficult to do for a whole dungeon as opposed to one boss as is.

[Palapop]

Simple solution: remove "concept of M+ KEYS".

Instead, let us choose which dungeon we want to do and on what level.

For example: if you want to farm MIST +15, then you should be able to enter that dungeon, select desired difficulty and that's it!

Instead, we have M+ "keys" which are pure RNG and if you dare to pug them, you lose 20-30 mins to form "solid pug group" with HIGH risk of someone making any sort of mistake which might cause a wipe and then some hothead leaving it and therefor deplating your key.

Extremely bad concept imo. Punishing you for wanting to play the game?! FOR REAL?!

[munkeyinorbit]

Why should I be punished for the bad tanks? It is always the tanks fucking it up. From pulling too much to trying to skip groups that don't need to be skipped. It's always the tank. Except if a mage is involved. I should be able to freely leave any group (tank) that is wasting my time. I even scratch my own key when time wasters are involved. There should be a system where if you get vote kicked you get a 24 hour debuff where you can't go and waste other people's time. To minimize abuse, people 8n the same friendliest or guild have one cite in total.

[deenman]

So I had a super amusing leaver earlier this week. It was before the key started, so it doesn't really count, but it was so weird, I have to note it.

Has a guy leave the group -- a group he made -- because we summoned him (we were at the stone and he was still in Oribos).



Apparently summoning people is creepy and cultish! He immediately relisted the key for a new group too, so it wasn't like he changed his mind about the key or something came up and he just wanted to say something ridiculous as he was leaving.

some people are just mentaly unstable,simple as that,not everyone can be a stable genius

[Necromantic]

There isn't an easy fix or it probably would have been implemented already.

Any kind of automated system that would punish people for leaving, would also inadvertently punish innocent people as well or cause other repercussions by people refusing to leave to avoid punishment. Just to use your example, say the warlock would get penalised somehow for leaving so instead he decides to just /dance at the entrance instead and go make himself a sandwich. Now the rest of you are hostage because if you leave, you'll get punished for what is essentially not your fault.

Leaver penalties may work in other games, but with the way WoW and m+ are designed, you can't really automate a fix for this that isn't going to punish innocents in addition to the people being malicious, or otherwise be exploited or result in modified (but not improved) behaviour.

I think the best approach involves actual human review and decisions on some level, whether it is reporting those people to blizzard (and hoping they take action against habitual offenders) or screening pugs better and hoping you don't get unlucky.

I'm not going to tell you not to PuG because I know that isn't always a viable option for people as someone who PuGs a lot myself. But I would recommend doing things like investigating m+ focused community groups and discords, and being clear in your group listings ("trying to time but will complete if not") to try to make sure everyone is on the same page to try to limit the likelihood as much as possible.

Perhaps it would be better but it will never happen.

Blizzard going to robot GMs and such to cut costs, the last thing they'd do is implement a system to remedy this. It's so much cheaper to get the community to "police" each other and make their decisions. Why pay salaries to do this?