Russian Opposition Leader Alexei Navalny Poisoned

[Felya]

The kind of WMD that poisoned modern Ukraine and turned it into fascist hellhole where president closes oppositional TV channels, sells land to foreigners, covers corruption, raises tarrifs to please foreign lenders, and uses fascist thugs against his opponents, duh.

Finally we agree on Putin, fucking over Ukraine, as he has done to every state that escaped the clutches of USSR. Where is Yavnikovich and why isn’t he being tried for high treason in Ukraine? Because the leader of a fascist hell hole... which happens to be a foreign country... sends a military squad to secure his exit from Ukraine, to Russia. Where was Yavnikovich sending Ukraine’s earnings? Yeah, those foreign leaders taking Ukraine money, their land and protecting a former thief in charge, from being tried for high treason.

Since we agree here... Could Russia please stop blaming everything on Ukraine and then attacking it? It would be much better if you dealt with the actual problem of Putin, instead of celebrating that foreign power of Russia is keeping a Ukrainian criminal, from being tried.

Yeah... Russia is a foreign power to Ukraine... it’s not changing, no mater how much you lie.

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Imperialist Russian intervention?

The unmitigated hutzvah of these people...

[Shalcker]

No, that is not how wars start, that is how internal propaganda works, this is a perfect example of it.

That is example of not "having some spine" though.

Russia cannot afford to cut the relations with EU, it is hot air and there was no other reason to push that hot air as only to show the tough Russia.

Russia can cut relations - it isn't something inconceivable. Blocking European goods already happened. "It'll cost too much to do it" only works, again, when you don't have a "spine" strong enough to do it.

Depends what kind of sanctions there will be. The problem is that they will seek to replace the lost income - means stealing even more from the country, thus impacting the rest of it. The system has limits, even the average Russian has limits.

So far the only sanctions that weren't toothless were Rusal ones.

Even all Nord Stream II sanctions do is delay it; they don't actually "cost" them anything important.

The point was not the size of that fine, but that Russia is paying it (along with couple hundred others, if I remember correctly). It does not go well against the "we don't care about EU, their views do not bind us", especially in the nationalistic huzzahpatriotic crowd.

What does it matter if they aren't in charge?

It plays well with Navalny crowd though - he even used "go now to my demonstration and then EHRC will pay you compensations later" argument occasionally. Why do you think Kremlins adopt "paying for your own failures to your opponents" approach there, even though it would on surface look self-defeating?

They even already have ruling that Russian Supreme Court decisions take precedence either way, so it's not like they couldn't ignore it.

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Since we agree here... Could Russia please stop blaming everything on Ukraine and then attacking it? It would be much better if you dealt with the actual problem of Putin, instead of celebrating that foreign power of Russia is keeping a Ukrainian criminal, from being tried.

Better for what and who exactly? Kids of current oligarchs that will get modern and hip president instead of old crusty one (like in Ukraine)?

And noone "blames everything on Ukraine". It's just great propaganda example of how "adopting European values" movements work in reality.

[Easo]

That is example of not "having some spine" though.

Russia can cut relations - it isn't something inconceivable. Blocking European goods already happened. "It'll cost too much to do it" only works, again, when you don't have a "spine" strong enough to do it.

So far the only sanctions that weren't toothless were Rusal ones.

Even all Nord Stream II sanctions do is delay it; they don't actually "cost" them anything important.

What does it matter if they aren't in charge?

It plays well with Navalny crowd though - he even used "go now to my demonstration and then EHRC will pay you compensations later" argument occasionally. Why do you think Kremlins adopt "paying for your own failures to your opponents" approach there, even though it would on surface look self-defeating?

They even already have ruling that Russian Supreme Court decisions take precedence either way, so it's not like they couldn't ignore it.

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Better for what and who exactly? Kids of current oligarchs that will get modern and hip president instead of old crusty one (like in Ukraine)?

And noone "blames everything on Ukraine". It's just great propaganda example of how "adopting European values" movements work in reality.

Blocking some goods =/= doing major relations cut. You do not understand the scale. Oh yes, btw - Russia really cannot just sell the gas to someone else, no one can pay for it like the EU can and right now supply is bigger than demand.

Yes yes, toothless, I am sure that Russian economy has issues purely to different factors (before Covid), nothing to do with sanctions You sure can take more without issue, right? /s

They are not in charge? Hardcore ones maybe are not, but United Russia is pretty nationalistic, plus nationalists are voters after all.
And Kremlins? Dear Shalcker - but you are one! You won't really find many people here thinking differently, you are very unconvincing regarding that.

So your argument is to do nothing because nothing changes? European value adoption would have worked better if reactionaries and oligarchs would push their propaganda less...
You again pretty much took a quote out of the list I wrote before. The situation in Ukraine is very very very connected to Russia. Blame Nazi's all you want, without Moscow stirring shit up civil war would have been unlikely at all. But the imperialists in charge made sure it happened.

[Shalcker]

Blocking some goods =/= doing major relations cut. You do not understand the scale. Oh yes, btw - Russia really cannot just sell the gas to someone else, no one can pay for it like the EU can and right now supply is bigger than demand.

Where did you see "major relation cut" scale in Lavrov's words? If there will be actual painful sanctions then relationship will be toxic to them anyway.

Russia is already selling gas to China; and LNG plant is already operational too. They'll get less money, EU will get higher gas prices, contracts between countries will shift, and that will be it.

Yes yes, toothless, I am sure that Russian economy has issues purely to different factors (before Covid), nothing to do with sanctions You sure can take more without issue, right? /s

No economy exists "without issues". It's not like everything is quite rosy in EU either.

Politics are just part of equation, costs added to certain choices. Some care for actual independent policy, and some (like you) don't.

They are not in charge? Hardcore ones maybe are not, but United Russia is pretty nationalistic, plus nationalists are voters after all.

"United Russia" is opportunistic, not nationalistic. Nationalists have dedicated "opposition party" in LDPR; the ones outside of it and who wouldn't vote for it are marginal.

So your argument is to do nothing because nothing changes? European value adoption would have worked better if reactionaries and oligarchs would push their propaganda less...

Oligarchs and reactionaries aren't going to evaporate once Putin is out - not unless everything gets re-nationalized by Communists again, and that obviously isn't going to be compatible with "European values" either.

But it would solve oligarch problem, so there!

You again pretty much took a quote out of the list I wrote before. The situation in Ukraine is very very very connected to Russia. Blame Nazi's all you want, without Moscow stirring shit up civil war would have been unlikely at all. But the imperialists in charge made sure it happened.

The situation in Ukraine is also very very very connected to EU and US stirring shit from their side.

Ukraine had plenty of opportunities to stop civil war; so far they refuse to do so. Current situation is on them.

[Felya]

Better for what and who exactly?

What action are you talking about? Which country sent their military force to extract Yavnikovich from being tried for high treason? I would point my finger there... as to who benefited from his reign...

[Shalcker]

What action are you talking about? Which country sent their military force to extract Yavnikovich from being tried for high treason?

Which country sent their military force to get Quaddafi killed?

I understand that this bloodthirst rubs onto you, but generally "run country somewhat badly and enrich your cronies" doesn't warrant immediate death sentence (as plans to do that is what prompted his extraction).

I would point my finger there... as to who benefited from his reign...

Judging by how it went after he left, primarily Ukraine.

After all, he actually went to highest bidder that promised investments and industry orders, not vague "european values".

[Easo]

Shalcker has gone into whataboutism, how classic. Truly, Russia will not grow up for couple more decades it seems, always gotta blame USA and EU, even when starting civil war somewhere... Let me guess, in the next local elections if United Russia looses somewhere (which is possible, as evidenced by the last ones), will the new official be removed from power as well, hmm?
In the meantime

Russian opposition leader's lawyers have appealed to the Committee of Ministers of the Council of Europe over the non-execution of the ruling of the Strasbourg-based European Court of Human Rights (ECHR) on the Yves Rocher case. This was announced by Alexei Navalny's lawyer Olga Mikhailova, as TASS reports.

"We have submitted a request to the Committee of Ministers of the Council of Europe over the fact that the Russian Federation is not executing the ruling of Strasbourg’s court on the Yves Rocher case. Our appeal will be considered at a hearing in March," she said.

The defamation case about the WW2 veteran also continues and looks like similar circus to the previous one.
P.S.
Right now the so called "republics" are likely fucked in the long term anyway, which should give a pause to some Russian nationalists and make them think, but I doubt it will, Ukraine and West will be blamed anyway no matter what happens.

[Shalcker]

Shalcker has gone into whataboutism, how classic. Truly, Russia will not grow up for couple more decades it seems, always gotta blame USA and EU, even when starting civil war somewhere... Let me guess, in the next local elections if United Russia looses somewhere (which is possible, as evidenced by the last ones), will the new official be removed from power as well, hmm?

Your denialism of Western faults is quite well-known. You could try growing up as well.

What local elections have to do with anything? There are plenty of non-UR officials elected in local elections; some even won majority in their districts.

Next Duma elections (which are this year) will be quite interesting.

In the meantime

What exactly do you expect from Council of Europe? Which is basically sinecure for old EU (and Russian) bureaucrats.

You could check their previous statement on Navalny:
We call on the Russian authorities to fully investigate all reported abusive actions against peaceful protesters and journalists, and to bring those responsible to justice, in order to live up to Russia’s obligations as a member state of the Council of Europe.”

...what a joke.

Right now the so called "republics" are likely fucked in the long term anyway, which should give a pause to some Russian nationalists and make them think, but I doubt it will, Ukraine and West will be blamed anyway no matter what happens.

They will clearly get vaccines faster then main Ukraine though.

Long-term Ukraine is fucked just as much.

[Easo]

Your denialism of Western faults is quite well-known. You could try growing up as well.

What local elections have to do with anything? There are plenty of non-UR officials elected in local elections; some even won majority in their districts.

Next Duma elections (which are this year) will be quite interesting.

What exactly do you expect from Council of Europe? Which is basically sinecure for old EU (and Russian) bureaucrats.

You could check their previous statement on Navalny:
We call on the Russian authorities to fully investigate all reported abusive actions against peaceful protesters and journalists, and to bring those responsible to justice, in order to live up to Russia’s obligations as a member state of the Council of Europe.”

...what a joke.

They will clearly get vaccines faster then main Ukraine though.

Long-term Ukraine is fucked just as much.

I am just laughing at you blaming West about events in Ukraine, while Russia actually invaded and occupied parts of it (oh shut it, "northern wind" happened). For Kremlins West asking that basic democracy is upheld is the same as inflitrating provocateurs and paying people to protest. None of which happened (go on, start linking shady articles about how it "totally did"), buuut they keep thinking that it did. Which is your whole problem, you cannot see something negative for Russia as NOT being caused by West. If Omon started shooting protesters in Moscow would you also say the same crap which was said about Berkut?
Local elections have to do with certain party possibly not being in power.

A joke because they dared demand that the retards called cops beating protesters get punished? Yet Russia pays fines. Why would it do it? Ah right, because they need the membership.

Long term Ukraine is not fucked, basic economies of scale, few million in "republics" on a shaky donor line from Russia (there are questions about the longevity of that line which is why i mentioned it) vs relatively large country with multiple times the population, yeah, sorry, no. Climbing out of the pit takes time, but they are climbing.
Vaccines? On that you are probably right, though it remains to be seen how exactly soon Russia will organize that. AFAIK there is not enough production capacity and won't be for a long time still, Russia itself needs them first (though for the sake of politics...).

[Crispin]

Your denialism of Western faults is quite well-known. You could try growing up as well.

What local elections have to do with anything? There are plenty of non-UR officials elected in local elections; some even won majority in their districts.

Next Duma elections (which are this year) will be quite interesting.

What exactly do you expect from Council of Europe? Which is basically sinecure for old EU (and Russian) bureaucrats.

You could check their previous statement on Navalny:
We call on the Russian authorities to fully investigate all reported abusive actions against peaceful protesters and journalists, and to bring those responsible to justice, in order to live up to Russia’s obligations as a member state of the Council of Europe.”

...what a joke.

They will clearly get vaccines faster then main Ukraine though.

Long-term Ukraine is fucked justas much.

When whataboutism gets childish lol.

[Shalcker]

I am just laughing at you blaming West about events in Ukraine, while Russia actually invaded and occupied parts of it (oh shut it, "northern wind" happened).

As far as outside influences go events in Ukraine that precipitated civil war are primarily Western fault.

War itself is Russian (due to both volunteer and government support) - but it basically has no relevance to internal Ukrainian situation past 2015 other then serving as convenient boogieman as politicians rob Ukraine blind.

Current situation is primarily Western fault again (certainly not Russian).

And of course primary reason for everything is Ukrainians being given unrealistic expectations by their own politicians.

...which Navalny also does.

For Kremlins West asking that basic democracy is upheld is the same as inflitrating provocateurs and paying people to protest.

It can be; "asking for basic democracy" is extremely selective, and sometimes destabilizing.

Elections are primarily tools for supporting local legitimacy, not opinions of outsiders.

None of which happened (go on, start linking shady articles about how it "totally did"), buuut they keep thinking that it did. Which is your whole problem, you cannot see something negative for Russia as NOT being caused by West. If Omon started shooting protesters in Moscow would you also say the same crap which was said about Berkut?

Berkut never shot protestors though (in events that led to final escalation); that is well-established.

OMON didn't shoot anyone so far either.

Local elections have to do with certain party possibly not being in power.

As far as i see they should lose their constitutional majority unless they want to destroy their legitimacy entirely. Local elections don't influence that - they just show already existing sentiments.

A joke because they dared demand that the retards called cops beating protesters get punished? Yet Russia pays fines. Why would it do it? Ah right, because they need the membership.

A joke because all they do is ask Russian government to punish itself.

They pay fines because it gives Russian guys in Council of Europe excuse to hang out in EU and get European wages out of Russian budget, as well as occasional deal through various political connections.

And because fines are at joke amounts as far as Russian budget is concerned.

Long term Ukraine is not fucked, basic economies of scale, few million in "republics" on a shaky donor line from Russia (there are questions about the longevity of that line which is why i mentioned it) vs relatively large country with multiple times the population, yeah, sorry, no. Climbing out of the pit takes time, but they are climbing.

Where do you see "climbing" exactly? They are still worse off then where they started and their population is plummeting, with those who can leaving the country.

[Easo]

I give up, this is pointless. For your sake I hope those turnips are worth it.

[Theodarzna]

Navalny quoted Rick and Morty and Harry Potter in court. Gotta say, Russia is better off with Putin considering these facts.

[Machismo]

Navalny quoted Rick and Morty and Harry Potter in court. Gotta say, Russia is better off with Putin considering these facts.

You always manage to find a way to defend murderous tyrants.

[JohnBrown1917]

Now that he is in a work camp, will the news start reporting about the opposition in Russia that is not as racist and imperialist as Navalny? Not much of a point supporting the dude that would only make Russia even more right-wing, right?

[Yadryonych]

Now that he is in a work camp, will the news start reporting about the opposition in Russia that is not as racist and imperialist as Navalny? Not much of a point supporting the dude that would only make Russia even more right-wing, right?

We also have commie nutjobs whishing for return of Stalin. You folks out there have no idea how poor the choice in this field is for us...

[Felya]

Navalny quoted Rick and Morty and Harry Potter in court. Gotta say, Russia is better off with Putin considering these facts.

Now say something about imperialism...

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We also have commie nutjobs whishing for return of Stalin. You folks out there have no idea how poor the choice in this field is for us...

This complacency is why you have no options. When they talked about Russian people, the example I was given in US school... was of a WW1 avalanche. If I remember correctly... There was a military troop positioned on a hillside, when news of likely avalanche incoming reached them. Each and every single on died, because they refused to leave their post, without approval from leadership. This was not an example of blind loyalty or anything negative. But, of dedication and pride... in standing by your post, no mater what comes.

If you tell me that Russian people cannot find a leader that is better than Putin, when this renowned dedication to their country is that prevalent... I would call you a liar and not having enough faith in your own people... fuck the government... the people is where Russian strength has always been.

[JohnBrown1917]

Now say something about imperialism...

Something both Navalny and Putin love?

[Felya]

Something both Navalny and Putin love?

The guy currently in jail, loves imperialism as much as the guy who recently stole land from another country... You are the reason communism will always lose...

[Easo]

We also have commie nutjobs whishing for return of Stalin. You folks out there have no idea how poor the choice in this field is for us...

Well I could ask you about the choices you made which led to this situation... At some point there should be something about the general responsibility of the public. I wonder how popular the wannabe Tsar would be if he did not come to power at time of rising oil prices. He obviously could not move far enough from the oil needle for two decades and it now shows.