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  1. #561
    Quote Originally Posted by Aliven View Post
    That decline was mostly due how they treated casual players. And no WoD systems were not failure, guess why we have every expansion since with a mission table.

    And garnison were amazing idea.
    You mean really well? That's why the fanbase left was because it was too alt friendly?

    The mission table went from getting mythic raid gear in WoD, to time gating stories in Legion, to just being vanity. Such a beloved feature.

    Garrison was an amazing idea but a failure in practice.

  2. #562
    Quote Originally Posted by Aliven View Post
    If you dont want it you would not use it. Thats great about options, they are optional You can still made premade, go with guildies, etc.

    Players are gating content. This is a fact.

    - - - Updated - - -



    That decline was mostly due how they treated casual players. And no WoD systems were not failure, guess why we have every expansion since with a mission table.

    And garnison were amazing idea.
    what content are players gating??

  3. #563
    Quote Originally Posted by zantheus1993 View Post
    what content are players gating??
    Just about everything that requires a manual group to form. Why do you think raider.io worship is so prelevent within the community? Players gleefully exclude their fellows all over the place.

  4. #564
    I have to agree with the OP. In Shadowlands specifically the only thing it offers over a Normal mode PuG is that there's no expectation of people knowing what they're doing. Unless you're a Tank you're spending anywhere from 15-60 minutes in a queue that will 9/10 times put you in a group that's already killed 1 or 2 bosses of the 3. Time which you could just as easily spend in the LFG tool finding a Normal PuG. As OP mentioned the gear is worse than what's offered by WQ's when Renown is 29 or higher so it does nothing for casual players who have kept up with Renown.

    I'd be very interested in a survey of some sort that actually could tell us what % of LFR players do it "Just to see the raid" compared to who does it for the gear. I find it hard to believe there are that many (if any) people who are interested in raiding for the story element of it. Which may just be because that's not the kind of player I am personally nor had any interactions with.

    I was pro-LFR in previous expansions, but for SL it really seems like a pointless, frustrating form of content when you can very VERY easily join Normal PuGs, usually in much less time than it takes to wait out an LFR queue and get way better rewards for doing so.

  5. #565
    Quote Originally Posted by Rusken View Post
    I have to agree with the OP. In Shadowlands specifically the only thing it offers over a Normal mode PuG is that there's no expectation of people knowing what they're doing. Unless you're a Tank you're spending anywhere from 15-60 minutes in a queue that will 9/10 times put you in a group that's already killed 1 or 2 bosses of the 3. Time which you could just as easily spend in the LFG tool finding a Normal PuG. As OP mentioned the gear is worse than what's offered by WQ's when Renown is 29 or higher so it does nothing for casual players who have kept up with Renown.

    I'd be very interested in a survey of some sort that actually could tell us what % of LFR players do it "Just to see the raid" compared to who does it for the gear. I find it hard to believe there are that many (if any) people who are interested in raiding for the story element of it. Which may just be because that's not the kind of player I am personally nor had any interactions with.

    I was pro-LFR in previous expansions, but for SL it really seems like a pointless, frustrating form of content when you can very VERY easily join Normal PuGs, usually in much less time than it takes to wait out an LFR queue and get way better rewards for doing so.
    Players can gatekeep others from even getting into the raid on any difficult outside of LFR. That alone justifies it's continued existence.

  6. #566
    Quote Originally Posted by Rusken View Post
    I have to agree with the OP. In Shadowlands specifically the only thing it offers over a Normal mode PuG is that there's no expectation of people knowing what they're doing. Unless you're a Tank you're spending anywhere from 15-60 minutes in a queue that will 9/10 times put you in a group that's already killed 1 or 2 bosses of the 3. Time which you could just as easily spend in the LFG tool finding a Normal PuG. As OP mentioned the gear is worse than what's offered by WQ's when Renown is 29 or higher so it does nothing for casual players who have kept up with Renown.

    I'd be very interested in a survey of some sort that actually could tell us what % of LFR players do it "Just to see the raid" compared to who does it for the gear. I find it hard to believe there are that many (if any) people who are interested in raiding for the story element of it. Which may just be because that's not the kind of player I am personally nor had any interactions with.

    I was pro-LFR in previous expansions, but for SL it really seems like a pointless, frustrating form of content when you can very VERY easily join Normal PuGs, usually in much less time than it takes to wait out an LFR queue and get way better rewards for doing so.
    I'd say these days just "knowing what you're doing" isn't enough. Pugs today demand absolute perfection and top numbers, and if you can't provide it, folks kick you.

    That is why I prefer LFR. I do it to see the raid and feel like I'm a part of the expansion, as opposed to previous ones where the hope of being able to see the big bad villain was nothing but a hilarious joke. I don't care too much about the gear, as I don't PvP or join other organized content, so what I'm wearing doesn't really matter anymore. I just try to keep to myself, do heroic dungeons and LFR, and stay out of people's way with my sub-par venthyr affliction warlock. No one wants me in their groups.

    I think most folks who say "just join a normal pug" overestimate how easy it is. Sure if you're a top-notch player with an enticing ilvl, it's a viable path, but most aren't as patient for those who are less than that. As I say in these threads, if you want LFR gone, work to building a community where it isn't necessary first.
    Last edited by Tadkins; 2021-02-18 at 08:43 AM.

  7. #567
    Quote Originally Posted by Tadkins View Post
    I'd say these days just "knowing what you're doing" isn't enough. Pugs today demand absolute perfection and top numbers, and if you can't provide it, folks kick you.

    That is why I prefer LFR. I do it to see the raid and feel like I'm a part of the expansion, as opposed to previous ones where the hope of being able to see the big bad villain was nothing but a hilarious joke. I don't care too much about the gear, as I don't PvP or join other organized content, so what I'm wearing doesn't really matter anymore. I just try to keep myself, do heroic dungeons and LFR, and stay out of people's way with my sub-par venthyr affliction warlock.

    I think most folks who say "just join a normal pug" overestimate how easy it is. Sure if you're a top-notch player with an enticing ilvl, it's a viable path, but most aren't as patient for those who are less than that. As I say in these threads, if you want LFR gone, work to building a community where it isn't necessary first.
    I mean if we drive out people who need lfr wouldnt we of built a community where it isn't necessary?

  8. #568
    Quote Originally Posted by Krakan View Post
    I mean if we drive out people who need lfr wouldnt we of built a community where it isn't necessary?
    Might be right, but I don't think either side would like the end result of that.

  9. #569
    Quote Originally Posted by Tadkins View Post
    Might be right, but I don't think either side would like the end result of that.
    ::Wrath of the Lich King GearScore Vietnam-style flashbacks intensify::

  10. #570
    Quote Originally Posted by otaXephon View Post
    ::Wrath of the Lich King GearScore Vietnam-style flashbacks intensify::
    Ugh, yeah, I'm not living that again.

    But yup. Remove LFR, and...
    -Thousands, maybe a million quit the game.
    -Many of those remaining just don't raid.
    -Raids tiers become shorter, lesser quality, and longer in between at best. Blizz might scrap raiding entirely. The hardcore suffer.

    Just my predictions anyway.
    Honestly, who would even benefit if LFR was gone tomorrow?

  11. #571
    Quote Originally Posted by Rusken View Post
    I was pro-LFR in previous expansions, but for SL it really seems like a pointless, frustrating form of content when you can very VERY easily join Normal PuGs, usually in much less time than it takes to wait out an LFR queue and get way better rewards for doing so.
    Actually curious: wouldn't all the problems you percieve about lfr go away by you just ignoring it exists? As do I.

    Also, not everyone can "very easily" join normal pugs because raid leaders select who they take and if only for the reason 30 players is the max some will get rejected. You will never get rejected from joining lfr, normal mode will never be easier to join than lfr which is one click of a button to guarantee you get in. Just accept that there are a lot of players forwhom this is the deciding factor when choosing raid difficulty. If they wanted to they could join normal and higher already, only about 10% of wow players are interested in organized raiding so here we are, with lfr.

  12. #572
    Quote Originally Posted by Tadkins View Post
    Just about everything that requires a manual group to form. Why do you think raider.io worship is so prelevent within the community? Players gleefully exclude their fellows all over the place.
    you can get into the dungeons and the raids and the arenas and bgs through the lfg system

  13. #573
    Quote Originally Posted by zantheus1993 View Post
    you can get into the dungeons and the raids and the arenas and bgs through the lfg system
    No guarantee of that. I can be rejected and I can easily be kicked at the whim of the group leader.

  14. #574
    Quote Originally Posted by Tadkins View Post
    No guarantee of that. I can be rejected and I can easily be kicked at the whim of the group leader.
    no its the group finding lfg system you just sign up and can get into
    heroic dungeons
    arena skirmish
    random bg
    lfr

    you experience all of the content and the only thing you dont get are equal rewards

  15. #575
    Quote Originally Posted by zantheus1993 View Post
    no its the group finding lfg system you just sign up and can get into
    heroic dungeons
    arena skirmish
    random bg
    lfr

    you experience all of the content and the only thing you dont get are equal rewards
    Oh, yes. Players don't gate queued content. It's the manual formed harder group content that players gate. That is why I stick with queued.

  16. #576
    Quote Originally Posted by Krakan View Post
    I mean if we drive out people who need lfr wouldnt we of built a community where it isn't necessary?
    No. You'll just alienate the people you decided to gatekeep and they'll quit the game. Then the population of the game would dwindle hardcore. In addition to that, raid quality would take a HUGE hit because Blizzard is no longer justified in creating interesting raids because only a very small portion of the playerbase will see them.

  17. #577
    Quote Originally Posted by TheRevenantHero View Post
    No. You'll just alienate the people you decided to gatekeep and they'll quit the game. Then the population of the game would dwindle hardcore. In addition to that, raid quality would take a HUGE hit because Blizzard is no longer justified in creating interesting raids because only a very small portion of the playerbase will see them.
    Yeah I mean raids were so uninteresting in TBC and the population dwindled severely because they couldn't press a button to queue for them.

  18. #578
    Quote Originally Posted by intenz View Post
    Yeah I mean raids were so uninteresting in TBC and the population dwindled severely because they couldn't press a button to queue for them.
    Many people, including myself, still got left out of them.

  19. #579
    Quote Originally Posted by intenz View Post
    Yeah I mean raids were so uninteresting in TBC and the population dwindled severely because they couldn't press a button to queue for them.
    Blizzard has literally said that LFR justifies them continuing to put development time into raids. You want raids to start dropping in quality? Then get rid of LFR.

  20. #580
    JC people read the thread, not just the title

    The suggestion isn't axing lfr and doing nothing else. It's axing lfr and making normal the new lfr so that casuals can have real endgame content to progress in without gatekeeping. With real progression that happens over several weeks, not in a single night. An authentic raid experience would be more fun in the end than 1shotting dumbed down pushover bosses.

    This is how original LFR was meant to be before end of MoP-WoD Blizz devs decided to butcher it and make it kiddie version of raids with no real rewards.

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