LFR is a superfluous, meaningless difficulty

[Seranthor]

Just about everything that requires a manual group to form. Why do you think raider.io worship is so prelevent within the community? Players gleefully exclude their fellows all over the place.

That isn't players 'gating' you, thats a lack of personal initiative. Start your own group, invite yourself.

[Nachtigal]

No. You'll just alienate the people you decided to gatekeep and they'll quit the game. Then the population of the game would dwindle hardcore. In addition to that, raid quality would take a HUGE hit because Blizzard is no longer justified in creating interesting raids because only a very small portion of the playerbase will see them.

You're still using flawed logic. If the "alienated" people left, the majority of players remaining would be normal+ raiders. They are then justified, again, to create interesting raids.

[TheRevenantHero]

You're still using flawed logic. If the "alienated" people left, the majority of players remaining would be normal+ raiders. They are then justified, again, to create interesting raids.

No they're not. Because the majority of the playerbase use LFR. So if they all left, it's more likely the game would just shut down entirely because why would Blizzard keep a game going that has such a tiny population? All you'd have in the game are hardcore raiders and pvpers. Which would likely make up MAYBE one million players, and that's being generous. Blizzard would just cut their losses and shut the game down.

[Krakan]

Ugh, yeah, I'm not living that again.

But yup. Remove LFR, and...
-Thousands, maybe a million quit the game.
-Many of those remaining just don't raid.
-Raids tiers become shorter, lesser quality, and longer in between at best. Blizz might scrap raiding entirely. The hardcore suffer.

Just my predictions anyway.
Honestly, who would even benefit if LFR was gone tomorrow?

I mean I hear this a lot... just like the silent majority that would go covenants they liked rather then power... I'm just gonna say it. I don't believe this is a thing. If you look back there was never any retention gain from lfr...

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No. You'll just alienate the people you decided to gatekeep and they'll quit the game. Then the population of the game would dwindle hardcore. In addition to that, raid quality would take a HUGE hit because Blizzard is no longer justified in creating interesting raids because only a very small portion of the playerbase will see them.

The largest sub loss we know about happened after lfr was added...what your saying doesn't even have circumstantial evidence to support it...

[Rusken]

No they're not. Because the majority of the playerbase use LFR. So if they all left, it's more likely the game would just shut down entirely because why would Blizzard keep a game going that has such a tiny population? All you'd have in the game are hardcore raiders and pvpers. Which would likely make up MAYBE one million players, and that's being generous. Blizzard would just cut their losses and shut the game down.

Now you're just making wild claims to justify your opinion. There are absolutely no available metrics that prove whether the majority of the playerbase EXCLUSIVELY raids in LFR, which is who removing LFR would affect. People who use it for gearing alts or to fill one or two gear slots would eventually just forget about it and move to Normal.

This is where confirmation bias ruins any hope of reasonable discussion, you say removing LFR would cause so many people to quit that the game couldn't possibly continue to run at a profit likely because that's how you play and those are the people you surround yourself with. I on the other hand would say that removing LFR would change practically nothing because it's so hard for me to imagine people actually enjoy it and do it as their main endgame content. If I was so short on free time that I couldn't spend 4-6 hours a week in organised raiding I would simply play another game.

By the way; a million players is roughly a quarter of the playerbase right now (going off the last sub numbers made public and extrapolating), and if you think that's a "tiny population" then I'd really wonder what you say about the 25 year old MMOs that have 100,000 or less concurrent players that have maintained their servers and have thriving communities. Blizzard will never shut the game down entirely, even in 20 years time they'll simply cut servers to bring costs down and keep enough to maintain whatever playerbase it still has.

[Aliven]

You mean really well? That's why the fanbase left was because it was too alt friendly?

The mission table went from getting mythic raid gear in WoD, to time gating stories in Legion, to just being vanity. Such a beloved feature.

Garrison was an amazing idea but a failure in practice.

Failed because casual players were treated as second class citizens. So they took their money and left.

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what content are players gating??

Every one when they have power to pose unrealistic expectations (ie: item lvl, raide io) well above the intended level. So pretty much everything where players cant auto join.

Imagine if in bronze league in lol, dota, overwatch people would only let you play with them when you have at least gold or better diamond league.

[Depakote]

Players can gatekeep others from even getting into the raid on any difficult outside of LFR. That alone justifies it's continued existence.

Why do players get to decide what other players get to experience?

[TheRevenantHero]

I mean I hear this a lot... just like the silent majority that would go covenants they liked rather then power... I'm just gonna say it. I don't believe this is a thing. If you look back there was never any retention gain from lfr...

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The largest sub loss we know about happened after lfr was added...what your saying doesn't even have circumstantial evidence to support it...

I really don't think LFR caused a massive sub loss. It makes no sense because it's not required content so why would be people leave because of it when they can just pretend LFR doesn't exist?

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Now you're just making wild claims to justify your opinion. There are absolutely no available metrics that prove whether the majority of the playerbase EXCLUSIVELY raids in LFR, which is who removing LFR would affect. People who use it for gearing alts or to fill one or two gear slots would eventually just forget about it and move to Normal.

This is where confirmation bias ruins any hope of reasonable discussion, you say removing LFR would cause so many people to quit that the game couldn't possibly continue to run at a profit likely because that's how you play and those are the people you surround yourself with. I on the other hand would say that removing LFR would change practically nothing because it's so hard for me to imagine people actually enjoy it and do it as their main endgame content. If I was so short on free time that I couldn't spend 4-6 hours a week in organised raiding I would simply play another game.

By the way; a million players is roughly a quarter of the playerbase right now (going off the last sub numbers made public and extrapolating), and if you think that's a "tiny population" then I'd really wonder what you say about the 25 year old MMOs that have 100,000 or less concurrent players that have maintained their servers and have thriving communities. Blizzard will never shut the game down entirely, even in 20 years time they'll simply cut servers to bring costs down and keep enough to maintain whatever playerbase it still has.

As it's been said numerous times, when WoW's community is forced to "step up" they will just instead opt to leave. Look at heroic dungeons in Cataclysm before they were nerfed. A lot of people didn't like it and were just not doing content because they don't want to have to push themselves. They just want to play the game and have fun. LFR provides a raiding experience to people who either can't commit to a raid team or because they just don't WANT to commit to a raid team.

If LFR was removed, there'd be a lot of players that don't get to see endgame content now. Most of them would opt to just quit the game. So saying LFR removal would change nothing is a pretty ridiculous statement.

I was being generous in saying a million players would be left. Realistically, it would be a lot less than that since hardcore raiders make up a pretty small population in game. Most of the population are casual gamers and if LFR was removed, they just lost their only outlet for raiding. If I was in that kind of predicament I would absolutely leave the game. I'm not going to pay a subscription for a game if a big chunk of endgame content is just not accessible for me. Removing LFR does nothing but cost Blizzard subscriptions. It's not hurting the game and people really need to stop acting like it is.

[Krakan]

I really don't think LFR caused a massive sub loss. It makes no sense because it's not required content so why would be people leave because of it when they can just pretend LFR doesn't exist?

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As it's been said numerous times, when WoW's community is forced to "step up" they will just instead opt to leave. Look at heroic dungeons in Cataclysm before they were nerfed. A lot of people didn't like it and were just not doing content because they don't want to have to push themselves. They just want to play the game and have fun. LFR provides a raiding experience to people who either can't commit to a raid team or because they just don't WANT to commit to a raid team.

If LFR was removed, there'd be a lot of players that don't get to see endgame content now. Most of them would opt to just quit the game. So saying LFR removal would change nothing is a pretty ridiculous statement.

I was being generous in saying a million players would be left. Realistically, it would be a lot less than that since hardcore raiders make up a pretty small population in game. Most of the population are casual gamers and if LFR was removed, they just lost their only outlet for raiding. If I was in that kind of predicament I would absolutely leave the game. I'm not going to pay a subscription for a game if a big chunk of endgame content is just not accessible for me. Removing LFR does nothing but cost Blizzard subscriptions. It's not hurting the game and people really need to stop acting like it is.

It's hard to say... lfr wasn't optional for progression till wod. Cata had guilds suspended for exploiting it and mops terrible trinket design ensured dps ran it...

To say lfr is a boon for the game can't be proven but I suspect its extremely toxic and dull atmosphere is a catastrophic way to introduce new players to the end game.

[Revamp Man]

Failed because casual players were treated as second class citizens. So they took their money and left.

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Every one when they have power to pose unrealistic expectations (ie: item lvl, raide io) well above the intended level. So pretty much everything where players cant auto join.

Imagine if in bronze league in lol, dota, overwatch people would only let you play with them when you have at least gold or better diamond league.

but can you still enter the raid in lfr or the dungeons in heroic?

[Depakote]

Why do players get to decide what other players get to experience?

Would love an answer to this question.

[khalltusk]

Notice how he said they "ended up" 3/12? He is talking about 8.3 which has nothing to do with CN gearing issue. And even then, using an LFR trinket, generally, is not any specific raid gearing issue as there are tons of other avenues one could get a better trinket than LFR. Especially if they fancy themselves as a mythic raider.

Oh yes true, did not notice they mentioned 3/12. Still you agree it's not so much LFR gear being the problem but the player not doing enough to get gear slots filled.

[crusadernero]

Whats even the point of removing it now? All it will do is making sure less people get to see the raids. Less people being subbed. less people buying the glorious mounts. Less people buy gold(wow token), less people buying boosts.

All the while making it more annoying for those that keep on playing to see the story arc in each xpac, since they always end inside a raid.

There used to be a time were arguing for removing LFR had a place, but thats long gone. It would make no sense now, its been in the game to long. Alot of people are used to having it there, at the very least as an option to see raids at the minimum. Theres been several raid tiers where i've been unable to play a whole lot and therefore have had shit gear, but atleast I got to see the raids and quests/story tied to it. For me personally, if LFR was removed, I would probably miss out on several raids here and there.

I dont understand why others are so upset its there. I used to be, but I dont care anymore. Few years ago I got over the whole gearing treadmill and I dont really care a whole lot about it. Gear is replaced all the time anyway and I cant be bothered farming over and over and over and over and over into eternity for it. I dont care one bit that others have best gear and I dont. Doesnt affect me at all. So what if ppl do LFR? It drops shite gear anyway.

[Tadkins]

That isn't players 'gating' you, thats a lack of personal initiative. Start your own group, invite yourself.

Someone who is lacking confidence in the content and/or connections with other players isn't going to have an easy time forming their own groups. And it's not exactly like that lone low ilvl Warlock by himself in a group listing is going to be an enticing group to join for many.

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I mean I hear this a lot... just like the silent majority that would go covenants they liked rather then power... I'm just gonna say it. I don't believe this is a thing. If you look back there was never any retention gain from lfr...

Do we have the numbers on those? I'm genuinely curious. In my case apparently I went for the one actively detrimental covenant for my class; a Venthyr Warlock. The combo so bad that apparently I'd be better not picking a covenant at all. All because I simply like vampires. So there are folks put there who picked based on aesthetics rather than what icy-veins commands the masses to choose.

[Jastall]

Whats even the point of removing it now? All it will do is making sure less people get to see the raids. Less people being subbed. less people buying the glorious mounts. Less people buy gold(wow token), less people buying boosts.

All the while making it more annoying for those that keep on playing to see the story arc in each xpac, since they always end inside a raid.

There used to be a time were arguing for removing LFR had a place, but thats long gone. It would make no sense now, its been in the game to long. Alot of people are used to having it there, at the very least as an option to see raids at the minimum. Theres been several raid tiers where i've been unable to play a whole lot and therefore have had shit gear, but atleast I got to see the raids and quests/story tied to it. For me personally, if LFR was removed, I would probably miss out on several raids here and there.

I dont understand why others are so upset its there. I used to be, but I dont care anymore. Few years ago I got over the whole gearing treadmill and I dont really care a whole lot about it. Gear is replaced all the time anyway and I cant be bothered farming over and over and over and over and over into eternity for it. I dont care one bit that others have best gear and I dont. Doesnt affect me at all. So what if ppl do LFR? It drops shite gear anyway.

Some people have constructed this fantasy where removing LFR would either mean that suddenly loads of these players would rush to Normal/Heroic (as if you wanted half of them in a Heroic raid in the first place) and/or bring back people who would sub because a feature they don't like and does not affect them is removed.

I obviously question both these assertions quite heavily, as someone who might only ever touch it on alts.

[Popokolara]

I'd say these days just "knowing what you're doing" isn't enough. Pugs today demand absolute perfection and top numbers, and if you can't provide it, folks kick you.

That is why I prefer LFR. I do it to see the raid and feel like I'm a part of the expansion, as opposed to previous ones where the hope of being able to see the big bad villain was nothing but a hilarious joke. I don't care too much about the gear, as I don't PvP or join other organized content, so what I'm wearing doesn't really matter anymore. I just try to keep to myself, do heroic dungeons and LFR, and stay out of people's way with my sub-par venthyr affliction warlock. No one wants me in their groups.

I think most folks who say "just join a normal pug" overestimate how easy it is. Sure if you're a top-notch player with an enticing ilvl, it's a viable path, but most aren't as patient for those who are less than that. As I say in these threads, if you want LFR gone, work to building a community where it isn't necessary first.

because i see all these posts about how raid even in pugs is so exclusive and it should be inclusive etc, there are viewer raids that take people to help them. if you have trouble you should seek them out.

[Tadkins]

because i see all these posts about how raid even in pugs is so exclusive and it should be inclusive etc, there are viewer raids that take people to help them. if you have trouble you should seek them out.

I've never heard of these. Probably not enough out there to justify removing LFR.

I also just want to raid, not be an accessory in some dude's twitch channel.

[Glazey]

Failed because casual players were treated as second class citizens. So they took their money and left.

How were they?

[crusadernero]

Some people have constructed this fantasy where removing LFR would either mean that suddenly loads of these players would rush to Normal/Heroic (as if you wanted half of them in a Heroic raid in the first place) and/or bring back people who would sub because a feature they don't like and does not affect them is removed.

I obviously question both these assertions quite heavily, as someone who might only ever touch it on alts.

Theres been several raid tiers since LFR was introduced were it was my only option for several reasons. Then theres been several raid tiers were I have ignored LFR totally. It made no difference to me, and the only thing in common was that I got to see the raids. Thats a good thing, cause when I only had LFR it made it so I stayed in the game for a longer time. In fact, I used to do LFR with my friends. We would queue up, clear the raid while talking on discord. Just a relaxing time hanging out with friends. Non of us really cares about the gear, its more about doing stuff together.

[Popokolara]

I've never heard of these. Probably not enough out there to justify removing LFR.

I also just want to raid, not be an accessory in some dude's twitch channel.

i am not argumenting about removing lfr, but telling you how you can get an easier time, because i want to help you.
and you calll it "accessory to a twitch channel"?

Are you mental~??????

can you breathe air without feeling victimised by it?
Infracted