"The Light has made a pact with the enemy of all" [SPOILERS]

[Selah]

So, with the final confirmation that Anduin is in fact going to be Arthas 2.0 it begs a question about a whisper that we've had on the back of our minds for a while. What was this pact? What are the details, what is the trade, what exactly does this mean?

More importantly... what if this pact was fulfilled by the Light when Anduin was delivered to the Jailer?

We always thought that "the enemy of all" was talking about the cosmic force of death that threatened to consume us all. "Six seats at the high table, six mouths that hunger. One will consume all others" was the exact quote and for the longest time the assumption was that each of these seats was suppose to be referencing each cosmic force in this multi-dimensional power struggle. The problem is that the realm of death is actually really balanced when it's working like it's suppose to and from what we can tell the realms of death aren't interested in consuming all others. Except the Jailer. Matter of fact, the only way the Jailer can actually "break the machine of death" is by making sure there is no difference between life and death. The only way to do that is by killing all forms of life and only allowing one state to exist. If everyone is dead there can be no life, if death consumes all others there will be no more machine of death because it will be the only thing that exists.

Back to the seats at the table though. What if this is more focused and less broad? What if they're talking about six traitors, one from each of the planes? We know Sargeras is already a traitor to the realm of Order and the Jailer to Death. What if there was a conspiracy between the traitor from the light and the Jailer? A deal to deliver Anduin, a prolific agent of the light by any standard, directly into the hands of the Jailer. Anduin's new form is being described as a weapon and from what we can tell the Jailer has had a very weird obsession with him that makes little sense except for the singular fact that he's so well imbued with the light. What if this new weapon can wield both the power of the light and death? It's the only reason I can spot for such the weird obsession with him. The jailer clearly isn't interested in the Alliance or Horde outside of killing both of them so his political position is meaningless, he's not a particularly well renowned warrior, mage, or mind. The only value Anduin can possibly have to the Jailer is that he's so connected to the light.

With him gone and Turalyon firmly on the throne of Stormwind, the light would likely be in a very advantageous position to bring itself to Azeroth. The majority of the Alliance would likely back the light, we know Yrel is running around out there forcing people into service of the light. The Horde might be a problem but with the majority of the Alliance, the forces of the Army of the Light, and the forces forced into service on Draenor... who would be able to stand against the light?

Maybe Shadowlands is truly the reverse BfA where the final patch of the expansion is incursion of the Light to contract the 8.3 incursion of the Void?

Sorry for the tinfoil hat post.

[shoc]

Thinking too hard. It's Lothraxion who has made it in with the Light, his treachery revealed in the Unseen Guests book.

[luigisp]

So, with the final confirmation that Anduin is in fact going to be Arthas 2.0 it begs a question about a whisper that we've had on the back of our minds for a while. What was this pact? What are the details, what is the trade, what exactly does this mean?

More importantly... what if this pact was fulfilled by the Light when Anduin was delivered to the Jailer?

...

I think you may be onto something here with your theory - it's very obvious they're setting up the Light as a future/imminent "problem" on Azeroth (especially with regards to the Scarlet Crusade pamphlets from BFA that show the Scarlet's view on Anduin as being a false King), and now with Anduin being turned: it creates a perfect opportunity for 1) a shake-up in the Alliance (including a power struggle between Turalyon and whoever wishes to challenge his place as Head of the Alliance), and 2) the Light being able to seize power / launch an invasion (with ground forces like Turalyon's ready to support their cause).

This could be what finally gives us an expansion / storyline that centers around an actual Alliance schism (similar to what we've gotten with the Horde and Garrosh / Sylvanas).

EDIT: And yes, based on what we've seen with the Titan Pantheon and the Pantheon of Death: I think we can expect for there to be members of the other Cosmic Pantheons who have certain "personalities" that cause them to be belligerent towards their own brothers/sisters and other forces, so I'm sure there will be more Pantheon "betrayers" in the future.

[Selah]

Thinking too hard. It's Lothraxion who has made it in with the Light, his treachery revealed in the Unseen Guests book.

May very well be, but that's the fun of all this.

I think you may be onto something here with your theory - it's very obvious they're setting up the Light as a future/imminent "problem" on Azeroth (especially with regards to the Scarlet Crusade pamphlets from BFA that show the Scarlet's view on Anduin as being a false King), and now with Anduin being turned: it creates a perfect opportunity for 1) a shake-up in the Alliance (including a power struggle between Turalyon and whoever wishes to challenge his place as Head of the Alliance), and 2) the Light being able to seize power / launch an invasion (with ground forces like Turalyon's ready to support their cause).

This could be what finally gives us an expansion / storyline that centers around an actual Alliance schism (similar to what we've gotten with the Horde and Garrosh / Sylvanas).

EDIT: And yes, based on what we've seen with the Titan Pantheon and the Pantheon of Death: I think we can expect for there to be members of the other Cosmic Pantheons who have certain "personalities" that cause them to be belligerent towards their own brothers/sisters and other forces, so I'm sure there will be more Pantheon "betrayers" in the future.

Thank you, maybe the "high table" is more representative of a larger conspiracy? Something more that could be seen as high crimes? I don't know but the Anduin thing has been bothering me. It just hasn't made a bit of sense, this is really the first time it made any sense to me.

[Traveler Voltin]

enemy of all is death.

[TheFirstOnes]

"Maybe Shadowlands is truly the reverse BfA where the final patch of the expansion is incursion of the Light to contract the 8.3 incursion of the Void?"

No. We're going to face off against the Jailer at the end of the expansion, and we're going to bring Anduin back to us. This is basically what I think will happen. I think the final patch will be us beating the Jailer at Oribos with the Arbiter + The Eternal Ones.

- - - Updated - - -

Besides, we kinda already know what that "pact" is. The pact was shit that happened in Revendreth apparently, where the Venthyr didn't pay the Light its dues, all while disrespecting them. It's why the Light threw out that massive scar you see in Revendreth.

[Wangming]

No it will turn out that the Jailer is just misunderstood and the First Ones are the real bad guys.

[Selah]

enemy of all is death.

According to what? Everything we've seen from the Shadowlands so far has contradicted this idea, they were literally built around the idea that they must respect all others in order to function. With the exception of the Maw and the Jailer.

"Maybe Shadowlands is truly the reverse BfA where the final patch of the expansion is incursion of the Light to contract the 8.3 incursion of the Void?"

No. We're going to face off against the Jailer at the end of the expansion, and we're going to bring Anduin back to us. This is basically what I think will happen. I think the final patch will be us beating the Jailer at Oribos with the Arbiter + The Eternal Ones.

I have no doubt we'll be facing the Jailer, he's clearly been built to be the big bad of the events of Shadowlands. I don't think it's going to be the end of the expansion though. It's already confirmed that the Torghast raid is 9.1 which means we're going to be dealing with the vast majority of his forces. Even if we do a 9.2 raid and it's the raid on the Jailer that leaves the question of what is for 9.3.

Besides, we kinda already know what that "pact" is. The pact was shit that happened in Revendreth apparently, where the Venthyr didn't pay the Light its dues, all while disrespecting them. It's why the Light threw out that massive scar you see in Revendreth.

Why would the void care about this or mention it? Out of everything they've told us so far just saying "oh hey, the light burned a huge chunk of land in the Shadowlands" would be a rather pointless thing to say. Especially considering the rest have foretold all sorts of major events happening that were of far more import than that.

[deviantcultist]

People need to understand that Light and Death are both really compatible fascistic forces. It is the Void that is truly opposite to the Light and by giving in to Arthas 2.0 fan service they killed off the possibility of Anduin developing the Void side we saw in Shadows Rising.

I really hope we get an expansion where the Void rises up to those hypocritical forces and get a playable class that supports Void outside of puny Shadowpriest who is one spec of a healing class.

[Selah]

People need to understand that Light and Death are both really compatible fascistic forces. It is the Void that is truly opposite to the Light and by giving in to Arthas 2.0 fan service they killed off the possibility of Anduin developing the Void side we saw in Shadows Rising.

I really hope we get an expansion where the Void rises up to those hypocritical forces and get a playable class that supports Void outside of puny Shadowpriest who is one spec of a healing class.

I mean, we've known since at least MoP that Anduin has been able to tap the void and has before. However, you do hit on an interesting point. He has been able to access the void. Going full tinfoil hat for this idea. What if his ability to access the void and harness it is equal to that of his connection to the light? Maybe the pact between death and light isn't just what I purposed above but also he could wield void equally to death and light? Maybe the light and death seek to manipulate the void? The note made out to Denathrius did indicate that the void could be the biggest problem for their plans. Maybe Anduin is meant to be the tool to put a wrench in the plans of the void?

I'm the "aliens" meme right now. It's pretty great.

[Martymark]

People need to understand that Light and Death are both really compatible fascistic forces.

Is Sylvanas Antifa?

[TheFirstOnes]

According to what? Everything we've seen from the Shadowlands so far has contradicted this idea, they were literally built around the idea that they must respect all others in order to function. With the exception of the Maw and the Jailer.


I have no doubt we'll be facing the Jailer, he's clearly been built to be the big bad of the events of Shadowlands. I don't think it's going to be the end of the expansion though. It's already confirmed that the Torghast raid is 9.1 which means we're going to be dealing with the vast majority of his forces. Even if we do a 9.2 raid and it's the raid on the Jailer that leaves the question of what is for 9.3.



Why would the void care about this or mention it? Out of everything they've told us so far just saying "oh hey, the light burned a huge chunk of land in the Shadowlands" would be a rather pointless thing to say. Especially considering the rest have foretold all sorts of major events happening that were of far more import than that.

Uhm...

1. The Enemy of All IS Death. Ill'gynoth mentions this, and everything about this is implied more than once. Hell, it's highly theorized that the whole Enemy Infiltration shit that caused the Cosmic War to begin with was orchestrated by the Jailer, and was done by Denathrius and the Dreadlords. Would make sense.

2. Yeah, we're going to the Jailer's seat of power. That in itself doesn't mean we'll win. We could 100% get a raid on Oribos where we defeat the Jailer VIA the Arbiter, the Eternal Ones, Anduin going good, etc. Us invading Torghast doesn't mean shit.

"Even if we do a 9.2 raid and it's the raid on the Jailer that leaves the question of what is for 9.3." We're already raiding the Jailer's main area. 9.2 will likely be about the Inbetween, and Life. As for 9.3, we'll probably see the Jailer invade Oribos, and try to destroy both the Arbiter and reality for good.

"Why would the void care about this or mention it?" What do you mean? The Void sees infinite truths, and the scar on Revendreth probably means Death made a big deal with the Light that we still barely know about, and something happened between them that led to Revendreth being scarred. They also invaded the Shadowlands multiple times, and they KNOW just how big a deal Revendreth is, and how shady the Light can be.

Besides, the Light is kinda helping out with keeping Denathrius at bay. And we all know who Denathrius is. And no, he's not some "random" either.

"Especially considering the rest have foretold all sorts of major events happening that were of far more import than that."

It really wasn't. The Light did this during both it and the Void's invasion on the Shadowlands.

- - - Updated - - -

Ill'gynoth's always predicted future expansion plotlines, even the small ones.

- - - Updated - - -

May very well be, but that's the fun of all this.


Thank you, maybe the "high table" is more representative of a larger conspiracy? Something more that could be seen as high crimes? I don't know but the Anduin thing has been bothering me. It just hasn't made a bit of sense, this is really the first time it made any sense to me.

The high table only means the Cosmic Forces, their leaders, and their war with each-other. One that will "consume all others" is Death, or if Ill'gynoth was that egotistical, he was likely meaning Void. But, considering what we know so far, Death is the force that is trying to topple and destroy all the other Cosmic Forces.

- - - Updated - - -

You guys do realize that, just because you're the enemy of all, that doesn't mean you're the "last guys to deal with", yes?

[Minikin]

So, with the final confirmation that Anduin is in fact going to be Arthas 2.0 it begs a question about a whisper that we've had on the back of our minds for a while. What was this pact? What are the details, what is the trade, what exactly does this mean?

More importantly... what if this pact was fulfilled by the Light when Anduin was delivered to the Jailer?

We always thought that "the enemy of all" was talking about the cosmic force of death that threatened to consume us all. "Six seats at the high table, six mouths that hunger. One will consume all others" was the exact quote and for the longest time the assumption was that each of these seats was suppose to be referencing each cosmic force in this multi-dimensional power struggle. The problem is that the realm of death is actually really balanced when it's working like it's suppose to and from what we can tell the realms of death aren't interested in consuming all others. Except the Jailer. Matter of fact, the only way the Jailer can actually "break the machine of death" is by making sure there is no difference between life and death. The only way to do that is by killing all forms of life and only allowing one state to exist. If everyone is dead there can be no life, if death consumes all others there will be no more machine of death because it will be the only thing that exists.

Back to the seats at the table though. What if this is more focused and less broad? What if they're talking about six traitors, one from each of the planes? We know Sargeras is already a traitor to the realm of Order and the Jailer to Death. What if there was a conspiracy between the traitor from the light and the Jailer? A deal to deliver Anduin, a prolific agent of the light by any standard, directly into the hands of the Jailer. Anduin's new form is being described as a weapon and from what we can tell the Jailer has had a very weird obsession with him that makes little sense except for the singular fact that he's so well imbued with the light. What if this new weapon can wield both the power of the light and death? It's the only reason I can spot for such the weird obsession with him. The jailer clearly isn't interested in the Alliance or Horde outside of killing both of them so his political position is meaningless, he's not a particularly well renowned warrior, mage, or mind. The only value Anduin can possibly have to the Jailer is that he's so connected to the light.

With him gone and Turalyon firmly on the throne of Stormwind, the light would likely be in a very advantageous position to bring itself to Azeroth. The majority of the Alliance would likely back the light, we know Yrel is running around out there forcing people into service of the light. The Horde might be a problem but with the majority of the Alliance, the forces of the Army of the Light, and the forces forced into service on Draenor... who would be able to stand against the light?

Maybe Shadowlands is truly the reverse BfA where the final patch of the expansion is incursion of the Light to contract the 8.3 incursion of the Void?

Sorry for the tinfoil hat post.

i posted this a while back too.

honestly at this point we just dont have enough info. it would be a cool relation later, that this was the trade off in a light vs void based expac, to show that the light is not all goody goody. maybe z'rali can make a comeback too, that while she holds denathrius captive she figures it out that this has been happening.

[Ophenia]

People need to understand that Light and Death are both really compatible fascistic forces. It is the Void that is truly opposite to the Light and by giving in to Arthas 2.0 fan service they killed off the possibility of Anduin developing the Void side we saw in Shadows Rising.

Heh, at this point, Anduin will be the Chosen One™, able to wield every single cosmic-entity power, and he will ultimately be the one to stop the war between all of them !

[Progenitor Aquarius]

The light will raise once again to fight the Maw’s evil. Done some research on future class conduits at least for mages. Kyrian is definitely growing stronger and that tells me something. I have huge faith in Anduin that he will not be completely turned. We are going to free him!

[Alanar]

The light will raise once again to fight the Maw’s evil. Done some research on future class conduits at least for mages. Kyrian is definitely growing stronger and that tells me something. I have huge faith in Anduin that he will not be completely turned. We are going to free him!

Kyrians still have Uther and hes link to Arthas, doesnt mean Anduin is part of it.

[chrisisvacant]

People need to understand that Light and Death are both really compatible fascistic forces. It is the Void that is truly opposite to the Light and by giving in to Arthas 2.0 fan service they killed off the possibility of Anduin developing the Void side we saw in Shadows Rising.

I really hope we get an expansion where the Void rises up to those hypocritical forces and get a playable class that supports Void outside of puny Shadowpriest who is one spec of a healing class.

No, both the Light and the Void are concerned with proliferation. The light, through order. The void, through rampant consumption. The void doesn't kill people. It emboldens and empowers and enrages them.

Death is the only force that seeks to put a stop to that. The Shadowlands don't grow and expand - they sit still. Everyone in the Shadowlands is as they were when they entered, with very little moving of the needle (most of that being visual in nature as Shadowlands denizens conform to a certain aesthetic profile). With death, the void ceases to expand and infect. With death, the light can't reach every corner - as evidenced by Revendreth. Death is a ceasing of things and ultimately that's what is so fucked up about the potential for Jailer's success. Were he to succeed, he would be the king of all - under one throne, one house, one reality, with zero competition as no one else supersedes his power in the realm of death. Even the void battles with itself. Conquest doesn't exist in death - you are ruled by the Jailer, if he succeeds.

[Selah]

Uhm...

1. The Enemy of All IS Death. Ill'gynoth mentions this, and everything about this is implied more than once. Hell, it's highly theorized that the whole Enemy Infiltration shit that caused the Cosmic War to begin with was orchestrated by the Jailer, and was done by Denathrius and the Dreadlords. Would make sense.

2. Yeah, we're going to the Jailer's seat of power. That in itself doesn't mean we'll win. We could 100% get a raid on Oribos where we defeat the Jailer VIA the Arbiter, the Eternal Ones, Anduin going good, etc. Us invading Torghast doesn't mean shit.

1. As far as I'm aware he never actually says anything that explicitly implies the cosmic force itself. That is an assumption based on how the mechanics of life works and the community's perception of this quote from when it was originally released. All things can live do so and then die. It *feels* like death is the enemy of all who lives. However, as I pointed out earlier, with the exception of the Maw the Shadowlands seemingly is ordered to respect the mechanics of life. Hell, we even see it send people back to the realm of the living. Between Ardenweald and the souls being returned to the world of the living by the Kyrian, the realms of death are extremely compliant with the mechanisms of the universe. The only exception to this is the Jailer seemingly, which, to be fair, we don't actually know anything about his plans as we've all heard it through Sylvanas.

2. True, there is no promise we'll win. We could lose. However, how many raids have we lost? The problem with raiding as a story mechanic is that we've always won them. While I'm still waiting on a proper raid where we lose we don't actually have any reason to believe we will lose until we actually lose one. While we could get a raid in Oribos we could too also get a Jailer raid somewhere else entirely. Could be another realm of the Shadowlands, could be somewhere else on the cosmic chart, could be in the material plane. We just don't know. The other issue with this is too... we'll be taking out a vast majority of his forces in this raid. The Terragrue, the Eye, Sylvanas, Anduin. What will be left of his forces after this raid? Who would the raid consist of? 10 different ways of fighting the Jailer directly? It doesn't make a lot of sense.

"Even if we do a 9.2 raid and it's the raid on the Jailer that leaves the question of what is for 9.3." We're already raiding the Jailer's main area. 9.2 will likely be about the Inbetween, and Life. As for 9.3, we'll probably see the Jailer invade Oribos, and try to destroy both the Arbiter and reality for good.

Why do you think this? So far with all of the story threads we've seen in-game there has been very little if nothing talking about the in-between and only one reference to life (from the Winterqueen talking about Ysera's creator). While Blizz could totally just change course and throw a patch way out of left field like this, it doesn't seem likely. Especially considering the last couple of expansions the narrative between patches has been far more cohesive than the days of old where you jump for AQ to Naxx. Admittedly, we don't have access to the bulk of the lore from 9.1 and Blizzard is always planting seeds throughout expansions so there may be a change in narrative but right now we don't see any reason to believe this as everything we've seen has been entirely focused on the Jailer.

"Why would the void care about this or mention it?" What do you mean? The Void sees infinite truths, and the scar on Revendreth probably means Death made a big deal with the Light that we still barely know about, and something happened between them that led to Revendreth being scarred. They also invaded the Shadowlands multiple times, and they KNOW just how big a deal Revendreth is, and how shady the Light can be.

The void seeks every possible path and sees them all as truth, very different from seeing infinite truths. The former is not the latter. The contrast between the void and the light is that the void considers all possibilities and operates from there while the light can only see one path forward and moves in that direction.

To your point though, we don't actually know what the "pact" is between life or death. We don't know who struck it, how it operates, what the terms were, or even if it was fulfilled. The only thing we know is that is exists in a form. It is a massive assumption that the scar in Revendreth was because of the pact, as far as I can tell there is no reason to believe that the scar and the pact are related in anyway. If you have evidence to the contrary please do share though.

Besides, the Light is kinda helping out with keeping Denathrius at bay. And we all know who Denathrius is. And no, he's not some "random" either.

Agreed, he is an important figure.

"Especially considering the rest have foretold all sorts of major events happening that were of far more import than that."

It really wasn't. The Light did this during both it and the Void's invasion on the Shadowlands.

That's my point, the whispers we were provided during Legion from the void all have been related to major points in the lore. The scar so far has been nothing more than interesting lore to this point.

Ill'gynoth's always predicted future expansion plotlines, even the small ones.

As far as I'm aware, even the "small ones" have been substantial lore points and were far more important than a random fact about a landmass.

The high table only means the Cosmic Forces, their leaders, and their war with each-other. One that will "consume all others" is Death, or if Ill'gynoth was that egotistical, he was likely meaning Void. But, considering what we know so far, Death is the force that is trying to topple and destroy all the other Cosmic Forces.

Likely the high table is referencing the forces, that was a tangent thought which isn't really supported. However, we actually have no reason to believe that the realm of death is working to consume all others. Bastion only ever ferries souls after someone dies and the Kyrian aren't doing anything to kill anyone, Ardenweald is only ever given souls and sometimes rebirths them, Revendreth and Maldraxxus are only ever given souls and are not actively doing anything to "consume" other realms. This statement is only true for the Jailer and his forces of the Maw which the other realms of the Shadowlands are actively moving against to put down, which furthers the idea that the whispers were talking about individuals and not entire cosmic forces.

You guys do realize that, just because you're the enemy of all, that doesn't mean you're the "last guys to deal with", yes?

If you mean that there are other threats and dangers in the cosmic chart to deal with... then yes, we're all aware of that. No one is saying that they are the end all be all bad guy of Warcraft.

Heh, at this point, Anduin will be the Chosen One™, able to wield every single cosmic-entity power, and he will ultimately be the one to stop the war between all of them !

Avatar of Warcraft confirmed.

Not gonna lie, a sadistic part of myself is interested in this sort of story line. Anduin on a perpetual journey to learn and master the six cosmic forces. Though, I don't trust Blizzard's writing to do this correctly without him seeing like a god.

[SigmaShift]

I do not think the Jailer knows Anduin is void touched. From everything I gather, the Jailer fears the void. I think Anduin did this on purpose.

I feel this all unravels in 9.2, and a larger evil, such as perhaps a Void Lord becomes the main enemy in 9.3

[Traveler Voltin]

According to what? Everything we've seen from the Shadowlands so far has contradicted this idea, they were literally built around the idea that they must respect all others in order to function. With the exception of the Maw and the Jailer.

the freaking out about Sylvanas.
"She serves the enemy of all."