New slice and dice change from ptr notes

[Aurrora]

Cut to the Chase returning is a terrible change. Now Assassin will just go back to mindlessly spamming Envenom like in BfA. Having to pay attention to SnD made the spec more engaging. CttC should never be anything more than a talent.

SnD is terrible and pushes too much of Rogue and especially Assassination damage into autoattacks and poison procs, if you want Assassination to be more engaging you need to be campaigning for more active abilities not passives.

[RamenBowl]

New actives for Assassination that increase its skill ceiling would be welcome. In the meantime, however, Assassination is about to regress to an absolutely mindless Envenom spam. At least SnD broke up the monotony and gave you something else to track. Cut to the Chase should just be a talent in place of Venom Rush.

[Saltysquidoon]

'Regress' to a playstyle it's had for the majority of the game's lifespan? But isn't OLD GUD NU BAD? Aren't you trying to have your cake and eat it to by arguing that SnD is good for muti and cut to the chase is bad, when they've basically always existed together?

[Kaver]

SnD is terrible and pushes too much of Rogue and especially Assassination damage into autoattacks and poison procs, if you want Assassination to be more engaging you need to be campaigning for more active abilities not passives.

SnD would only be good for Assa if it made our Bleeds and Poisons tick faster.

[Aurrora]

New actives for Assassination that increase its skill ceiling would be welcome. In the meantime, however, Assassination is about to regress to an absolutely mindless Envenom spam. At least SnD broke up the monotony and gave you something else to track. Cut to the Chase should just be a talent in place of Venom Rush.

The thing is, Assassination HAS actives, but they're all talents that don't outperform their passive counterparts. Blindside should be baseline, Crimson Tempest should be baseline. Kingsbane should be put back into the game.

[Eazy]

It's a welcome change. I didn't like the idea of SnD. BFA Assa was fine as it was.

The change will make it more plausible for me. So that's a big plus.

[RamenBowl]

'Regress' to a playstyle it's had for the majority of the game's lifespan? But isn't OLD GUD NU BAD? Aren't you trying to have your cake and eat it to by arguing that SnD is good for muti and cut to the chase is bad, when they've basically always existed together?

Cut to the Chase was a mistake to begin with. Old is good when it's good, and bad when it's bad. Don't presume to put words in my mouth.

The thing is, Assassination HAS actives, but they're all talents that don't outperform their passive counterparts. Blindside should be baseline, Crimson Tempest should be baseline. Kingsbane should be put back into the game.

Everything you said is true, but it doesn't change how right now, SnD is the only thing keeping Assassination from returning to a mindless Envenom spam. The best solution here is just to make Cut to the Chase a talent, which I suggested to them months ago.

[Aurrora]

Everything you said is true, but it doesn't change how right now, SnD is the only thing keeping Assassination from returning to a mindless Envenom spam. The best solution here is just to make Cut to the Chase a talent, which I suggested to them months ago.

How does that change anything? It would be the go to talent on whatever tier it was placed on. Do you realize the last time Assassination had to manually refresh SnD was in Burning Crusade and it was never a viable raid spec that expansion.

[Saltysquidoon]

Cut to the Chase was a mistake to begin with. Old is good when it's good, and bad when it's bad. Don't presume to put words in my mouth.

Not Cut to the Chase has always been and will always be necessary for muti because it has better things to do than monitor uptime on a passive AA buff and it generates fewer CPs more inconsistently than any other spec. That's why it was added in the first place.

As I mentioned in my previous post something that was added in wrath has been in the game for the majority of the game's existence at this point, you literally cannot make an appeal to nostalgia argument and somehow exclude Cut to the Chase because it 'was only added in wrath'.

[RamenBowl]

How does that change anything? It would be the go to talent on whatever tier it was placed on.

Simple: I would never choose it, while other people would if they want to.

As I mentioned in my previous post something that was added in wrath has been in the game for the majority of the game's existence at this point, you literally cannot make an appeal to nostalgia argument and somehow exclude Cut to the Chase because it 'was only added in wrath'.

What appeal to nostalgia? What are you even talking about?? Nothing I said had anything to do with "nostalgia." I don't want Cut to the Chase back because it oversimplifies an already simple spec.

[Finear]

Simple: I would never choose it, while other people would if they want to.

You are free to cast snd every 30 or so seconds anyway ignoring cut to the chase

[Sazalol]

Manual refresh is too much of a dps loss

[RamenBowl]

Blizz could fix that with number tuning, though; that isn't SnD's fault. A better change for Assassin would be Shrouded Suffocation from BfA becoming baseline to help kickstart the rotation.

[Kaver]

Cut to the Chase was a mistake to begin with. Old is good when it's good, and bad when it's bad. Don't presume to put words in my mouth.

Everything you said is true, but it doesn't change how right now, SnD is the only thing keeping Assassination from returning to a mindless Envenom spam. The best solution here is just to make Cut to the Chase a talent, which I suggested to them months ago.

SnD was good back in the days when every mob was a glorified target dummy. But today the game mechanics are much more action packed and abilities like SnD are simply outdated. Dungeons are much more about correct use of utility and CDs than it is about doing a dps rotation.

[Coldkil]

SnD was good back in the days when every mob was a glorified target dummy. But today the game mechanics are much more action packed and abilities like SnD are simply outdated. Dungeons are much more about correct use of utility and CDs than it is about doing a dps rotation.

Can agree with this - on a more "refined" level. Rogues have always been very dependant on uptime, and M+/modern raid design shifted the mechanics on burst damage, and correct execution. There's movement involved, damage windows, etc even on simple bosses like Shirekwing or Altimor, which are basically glorified target dummies.

SnD value drops a lot when you're not actually hitting anything, and a lot of our damage is tied to it. Can understand it for Outlaw for example that has lots of things to juggle and SnD is only one of them, but i don't really see it for Sub which is all about burst and Assa, which should be about dots.

If Assa gets decent, i'll prolly swap to that for raiding - Outlaw will be king of M+ because of Blade Flurry and Shroud anyway. Having an easier rotation that makes you more effectve at doing the fights is not something to overlook.

[Kaver]

Can agree with this - on a more "refined" level. Rogues have always been very dependant on uptime, and M+/modern raid design shifted the mechanics on burst damage, and correct execution.

Rogue is straight up a support class in M+ now. We need to have 15 different macro-keybinds (focus and mouseover) for Kick, Kidney Shot, Shiv, Blind and Cheap Shot. What we do is CC mobs while the Fire Mages, Hunters and Boomies are nuking them down in massive AOE packs. This is why Rogues still are popular in top M+ groups. Shroud is not even very attractive anymore since most groups can work around the skips with other tools. For Rogues the gameplay in Dungeons is much more about mob control than it's about doing a dps rotation.

[Coldkil]

Rogue is straight up a support class in M+ now. We need to have 15 different macro-keybinds (focus and mouseover) for Kick, Kidney Shot, Shiv, Blind and Cheap Shot. What we do is CC mobs while the Fire Mages, Hunters and Boomies are nuking them down in massive AOE packs. This is why Rogues still are popular in top M+ groups. Shroud is not even very attractive anymore since most groups can work around the skips with other tools. For Rogues the gameplay in Dungeons is much more about mob control than it's about doing a dps rotation.

Hey, at least i can get into M+ slowly working my way towards the mount (right now at 13s).

[Kaver]

Hey, at least i can get into M+ slowly working my way towards the mount (right now at 13s).

Yeah we are lucky that people are meta slaves. Because Rogue is mainly good in high keys where the CC utility becomes essential. But people don't look at WHY Rogues are popular in high keys. They just see the yellow text and think "I also want a Rogue in my group!" which of course benefits us in the end :P

[Coldkil]

Yeah we are lucky that people are meta slaves. Because Rogue is mainly good in high keys where the CC utility becomes essential. But people don't look at WHY Rogues are popular in high keys. They just see the yellow text and think "I also want a Rogue in my group!" which of course benefits us in the end :P

Yup. Also helps that the highest r.io teams all have a rogue (where also sustained damage counts due to inflated hp pools) so everyone looks at that and wants one because "ROUGE BESTEST".

On one side, M + is kinda growing on me. Has a somewhat steady progression despite all downsides, and given how i'm currently guildless it's a more reliable way to gear up (while i'm also trying to get the curve, hope to make it tonight). On the other, the timer, ratings and forced competitiveness which to me is completely useless and even dangerous on the long term make so most players are actually blind about the real mechanics under the hood.