21'st Man, The reason WA's need to go.

[Byleth]

how did you delegate mythic ra'den?

Honestly, I didn't need too. The team just did what they were supposed too.

I've been pretty careful in building my raid team, these guys are all self-starters and learn from their mistakes.

[Nnyco]

Better also ban voice chat.

[ashblond]

Basic addon functions like damage meter, boss abilities cd, mouseover macro shall be integrated into wow native settings.

And all 3rd party addons shall be permanently banned. There is no need for tons of bloated malware wasting ram resource for the game.

[Relapses]

Better also ban voice chat.

And any communication at all, honestly. Because if you ban WA, how can you be sure that some kind of magician isn't whispering boss timers into their players' ears?

-signed, a guy that walks 20 miles to work every day because cars are 3000-lb slabs of metal that travel at speeds far too quick for our tiny ape brains to properly comprehend

[crusadernero]

Yes, remove WAs (and since we're at it, Boss Mods as well) and go back to the glorious times of raid encounters having 2 mechanics because any more than that would become quite literally impossible to coordinate between 20 players.

I much rather have insanely retarded and stupid shit like Archimonde that melts your brain even with fucking WAs and whatever other addons than having the pinnacle of encounter design be shit like Artificer where you have like 3 abilities randomly overlapping with each other from time to time... and nothing else.

I more or less agree, but dont you think that this will get more and more out of hand? As time goes on Blizzard gotta reinvent the wheel for each boss fight. its only going to get more complex and theres probably a need for even more addons as time goes.

[Relapses]

I more or less agree, but dont you think that this will get more and more out of hand? As time goes on Blizzard gotta reinvent the wheel for each boss fight. its only going to get more complex and theres probably a need for even more addons as time goes.

This isn't a bad thing.

[crusadernero]

Basic addon functions like damage meter, boss abilities cd, mouseover macro shall be integrated into wow native settings.

And all 3rd party addons shall be permanently banned. There is no need for tons of bloated malware wasting ram resource for the game.

Somewhat agree. At the higher levels using addons and having complex boss fights is welcomed. Im not so sure about what most people fancy though. Personally, after playing since vanilla I have stuck with dmg meter, DMB and some other addons now and then. Since I dont bother raiding anymore beyond LFR and maybe normal(dont need addon for that), I have no use of it.

This is a trend were you can cleary see Blizzard creating boss fights with various addons in mind. As time goes by, they get more complex. Meaning more complex addons or just additional addons. The requirements to take part in raiding is ever so increasing.

But then again, theres 4 difficulties in the game. Two of them dont really require any addon, just pay attention.

So maybe all in all - It doesnt matter that Blizzard creates complex raid fights aslong as theres easier difficulties out there. Everyone can take part in the difficulty they wish.

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This isn't a bad thing.

Probably. As I said to someone else, since theres 4 difficulties in the game it doesnt really matter all that much. Besides, its cool to see what Blizzard comes up with. I think its cool to see what they good players come up against, even though i'll never try it myself.

[Elkfingers]

There are multiple reasons why Weak Aura's need to go. They actually limit design encounter, they over whelm new players and essentially make an add on required for any kind of content that matters.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CXx8ZhIzdRQ

This video opens a lot of holes.

Max admitting he wasn't a strong enough player to raid lead and play the actual game. Basically making the game 21 man raids instead of 20.
Max said he does it because he knows he's the best at it, but that's very subjective, if WA's go away he can't sit there and simply tell people when to push their buttons.

I'd like to see them go.

Yeah, see everything before the bit I've bolded is just backwards justification for your personal beef about addons.

Imagine trying to appeal to somebody saying something is subjective when this whole post is just, like, your opinion man.

If weakauras weren't a thing, it wouldn't remove the coaching meta. Regardless of the relative complexity of raid mechanics, it's still going to be optimal to focus solely on raid leading rather than both raid leading and playing your class. It's really simple - it's the difference between doing one thing, and doing two things. Only doing one thing will always produce better quality results than trying to do two things at once.

The idea that choosing not to use tools is the most authentic way to play the game is a values statement. You think it's the right way to do things, but it doesn't mean that it's actually better. It's anti-progress. You're the guy in the cotton mill trying to smash up the spinning wheel because you reckon doing it by hand is just as good. Objectively it's not.

Choose not to create efficiencies for yourself if you want, I couldn't care less, but you don't also get to pretend that it makes you a better player. Limit's raid team still have to know when to press their buttons. It's why you're not in Limit.

[Echo of Soul]

I'm guessing you don't understand how weakauras work. What you're essentially asking for is "ban addons".
The problem isn't weakauras, it's the addon API.

[T-34]

Thats completely untrue. I spent years main tanking and raid leading for my guild and my performance never suffered once.

Well, if you aren't sarcastic then I would suggest that you contact Max and he will recruit you in a heartbeat.

[Gasparde]

I more or less agree, but dont you think that this will get more and more out of hand? As time goes on Blizzard gotta reinvent the wheel for each boss fight. its only going to get more complex and theres probably a need for even more addons as time goes.

Of course it's gonna get out of hand. And the community will come up with a solution to it whenever that happens.
The alternative is shit never getting out of hand and stuff always being the same because you can't reasonably expect people to be able to handle certain things without proper addons (although other Ra'Den I can't really remember the last fight where a WA was 100% needed to beat the fight, at least from the top of my head).

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Are you joking? Mythic Archimonde's Wrought Chaos was impossible to handle without an addon showing everyone's positioning.

That's not true. Watch Paragon's first kill vid and you'll see them play the fight without the player position radar thing. Yes, they were still using a WA, but what they came up with had absolutely nothing to do with relative player positions.

[OokOok]

I don't get this crying, it's not like only specific people can use Addons. You can use WA too... you can use DBM....

People used addons in Vanilla, yup they did. They've been a thing since the start

[Kumorii]

how did you delegate mythic ra'den?

Set order of soaks that never changed. Have 2 people as stand in. If one in soak order got target first that players says they need stand in on x soak. X is their position in order. Then the stand in takes that spot and it continue as normal.

I knew that I'd always second at soaking the lightning. So I always to orange, I think we used. If I got it first I said "I can't soak 2nd" then the reserve went to take 2nd soak. Nothing else changed in soak order.

Same goes for the Red circle soak when it was our ranged turn to do it.

That's it. A list of soak orders everyone should know instantly and one or two calls at debuff application if a reserve is required.

That wa caused more issues than it solved. I got frustrated at my guild because people thought it was required but it took so many tries to just get it working and even then it bugs out often to confuse people.

I just removed it out of sight and did my soak orders with no issues at all. Ra'den is a fight where the perception of necessity caused the necessity and made the fight more complex than it was.

Thing is, if someone makes a weakaura people seem to think that "oh nice, we don't have to think about x" and that makes it required. Instead of thinking what the weakaura actually do and what the fight actually require. Its a glorified static list that replaces 2 spots. That's. It. That's all it was.

[erifwodahs]

Cutting WAs data would just destroy loads of other addons or leave massive gaps for addons which would replace WAs.
I prefer fights with WAs because it's complex and mechanically pleasing. Also, from my mythic raiding experience - several CEs in Legion and first two tiers in BfA, there aren't that many fights where weak auras were mandatory - one or two bosses where it feels like if you did not use it, you would get screwed over big time.

New players are not anywhere near the content where they need WAs. If they are actually doing mythic raiding, they should be ready for that regardless because that is the hardest content in game.
Half of the things WAs do you could be tracking using UI addon, or just using default UI, it just makes it annoying as default is trash.
You can ban weak auras, but how far can you go? Raid addons? UI addons? because you can make either of them do what is required.
If DBM or BW were banned you would get web addons for that which would read your logs to determine timers and stuff
DPS meters which read combat log? Details can provide you all data WAs are giving. Exorsus raid tools are doing the same job.
Also it would mess up a lot of non-raid related weak auras, i.e. pet tracking, CDs tracking, mount hunting and other stuff.

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I'm guessing you don't understand how weakauras work. What you're essentially asking for is "ban addons".
The problem isn't weakauras, it's the addon API.

Exactly. If you ban/disable weak auras either you leave massive holes or destroy most addons outright.

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All addons should be permanently banned from wow.

A game that needs addons, sims and 3rd party guides is a failure.

WoW does not need that to play lol. It's not like you can't do everything without addons with default UI and not even using coms. Actually, I am pretty sure you can clear half of mythic raid like this. You only "MUST" have them, if you are bad. Other than that very few fights require anything more than timers.
WoW also have 4 modes, at least two of which can be fully done by a person who is mouse clicking backpaddling and playing worst spec available but that does not mean that hard modes should be designed for them. That's why most games have beginner, easy, medium, hard and inferno modes. Should inferno be balanced for players who are not skilled enough to figure out the mechanics without 3rd party guides?

[bloodwulf]

Weak Auras are not the issue.

The fundamental issue is a raid leader trying to do too much themselves.

I am a raid leader, and I delegate out the call outs to people in the best position to do them for any given encounter. For example if I'm tanking Darkvein, I have enough to worry about without having to monitor the fucking anima tanks as well.

Raid leaders just need to learn to let go a bit and trust their teams more.

I'm not sure how you took any of that from what i said. I never blamed WA, i even said without them something else would take its place. Raid Leading and performing a primary role take an equal amount of focus, and if you commit to doing both, one or both degrade in quality. The video OP was talking about Max goes over this extensively, talking about mental bandwidth available. Also you must not of watched any of Method or Limits streams during progression, because even using a 21st man they still had some people calling out things, no one was "afraid to let go". Also there is such thing as too many Chefs in the kitchen. If you have everyone talking, no one does anything. To assume that Max is not delegating, or that Method's raid leads are not delegating is laughable.

[justandulas]

I’d like to see them disable all addons for mythic raiding

You don’t know who’s truly skilled or not if they can’t play o naturale

Having a dozen addons hold your hand and play for you is counter intuitive to what raiding is

[ztkraptor]

So you think raids are too hard?

I would say yes, they are too hard.
They have complicated the raid so much that the only real way to complete the encounter is with a massive amount of assistance tools to basically tell you where to go, and what to do.
Raids aren't really much about fighting a boss, but following a script now.

[VinceVega]

honestly most of the time i don't watch the weakauras for bossfights at all...

i have them... but at a certain point you get the paterns and don't need it anymore.

The only weakauras i really look at anymore is one under my character wo sums up my abilities, CDs and Mana better than Blizz UI does

[potis]

Thats completely untrue. I spent years main tanking and raid leading for my guild and my performance never suffered once.

Oh yeah, the rank 1 guild and raid leader that kills bugged bosses that have x3 times the personal weight mechanics from past bosses and literally helps Blizzard hotfix them knows less than Pandragon, the Raid Leader that doesnt suffer in performance.

You cant make this shit up anymore.

[ClassicPeon]

Max said that no-one can play the game at the maximum level and raid-lead at the maximum level at the same time. One or the other will suffer.
He actually also said that there are many occasions where it is more efficient to raid-lead from "within the game" even if your performance would suffer.
He also said that for the majority of guilds it would be detrimental to have a "21st man" and that is solely was a world 1st issue.

How you got WA's involved in your fake outrage about the "21st man" goes beyond me.

Thats a given. It literally doesnt take 2 braincells to figure that out. Anyone who has ever been a raid leader(not an, I MAKE RAID, I DECIDE. An actual raid leader. A person who calls out things and help his teammates perform better) knows that it takes away focus from what you are doing. Some people are better at it then others but it stands to reason that in world first guilds where they are literally making the strategies other people are using months after and discovering new things each pull, its gonna take away from your focus.

This has nothing to do with addons

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Oh yeah, the rank 1 guild and raid leader that kills bugged bosses that have x3 times the personal weight mechanics from past bosses and literally helps Blizzard hotfix them knows less than Pandragon, the Raid Leader that doesnt suffer in performance.

You cant make this shit up anymore.

Some people think raid leading equates to: "I have leader icon. I make group. I decide you not come today"