Masterloot should return

[kaminaris]

Only on MMO-C will someone call a Meritocracy based system, communism. It is the OPPOSITE of communism my dude. It's using gear as a TOOL so that the whole GUILD can raid BETTER, based on personal performance. That's as far as Communism as it gets man.

I've seen loot drama. Hell, I've even CAUSED loot drama when the guild's founding principles were forgotten.

"Loot goes to whoever it benefits the raid, the most".

There is really no point in arguing when you didn't even understand what I meant. You are promoting communism where everyone works together as a team and power of friendship is the most OP power that lets you overcome worst hurdles.

Sooner or later some people will think or even say they deserved loot more. Cause humans aint perfect no matter how much you wanna "fair" loot system, master looter is far from it.

And again, "whoever it benefits the raid the most" is gonna be hard for anyone to actually definitely decide. You know it right?

[Dalinos]

There is really no point in arguing when you didn't even understand what I meant. You are promoting communism where everyone works together as a team and power of friendship is the most OP power that lets you overcome worst hurdles.

Sooner or later some people will think or even say they deserved loot more. Cause humans aint perfect no matter how much you wanna "fair" loot system, master looter is far from it.

And again, "whoever it benefits the raid the most" is gonna be hard for anyone to actually definitely decide. You know it right?

Uhm...you are aware of the existence of Warcraft Logs, correct? "Whoever it benefits the raid the most" is actually quite easy to see, through logs, if the people looking at the logs know what to look for. It's...really not that hard.

[czarek]

Master looter? Just look at gbid runs on classic. That is mind blowing bussines. Pay loads of gold for an item >< NO TNX. Personal loot is ok. Its not perfect but hella better than master looter.

[Dalinos]

Master looter? Just look at gbid runs on classic. That is mind blowing bussines. Pay loads of gold for an item >< NO TNX. Personal loot is ok. Its not perfect but hella better than master looter.

GDKP has always been in the game. I was selling Zul'Aman bears during TBC 2 times a week (3-day resets ftw). Our last bear, on the reset before it was removed, sold for 9,000 gold. In OG TBC. Silvermoon EU - Alliance side. Guy's name was Dragonkimber.

You seem to be against the concept of hiring a team of good raiders to clear content for you so you can get loot/mounts/achievements. I'd advise you log on Retail and look at Trade chat. Heroic Castle Narthria clears will be sold shortly, if they haven't started already.

[neik]

I pity you, and all players like you, who have never spent more than a couple of months in the same guild, and can't understand ML is the ONLY way to run a loot distribution system based on meritocracy.

I honestly feel sorry for you, for never having been in a situation where YOU were happy for SOMEONE ELSE getting loot. Cause it's a damn good feeling man, it really is. Or when OTHERS get happy YOU got loot. Also a really nice feeling. Cause remember, without them, you wouldn't have jack shit. Without you, they wouldn't have jack shit.

Then again, I see you have a 10year MMO-C tag, same as me. Which means you've been here for a while. Which means, that in all these 10 years + you've been playing WoW, you've never been in a guild that was based on integrity, group effort, recognition of said effort and like-minded people coming together. Otherwise you wouldn't only have bad experiences with ML. That's sad dude. It really is sad.

You call them "Tyrants" - I see a Guild-Master and Officer team that use THEIR time, THEIR effort, to make the raids YOU attend as successful and seamless and enjoyable as possible.

You call "players getting BULLIED" - I see GOOD players trying to teach their guildies to be BETTER, more successful players/raiders. If gameplay advice from someone who is objectively better than you comes out as bullying, that's your problem, not anyone else's.

You call "newcomers getting fucked" - I see new RECRUITS, that need to PROVE THEIR WORTH, both socially AND gameplay-wise, in order to be treated the same way as your year-long members that have been with you through thick and thin.

Maybe at some point in your life you will manage to join a mature guild, that puts progress first and keeping lootwhores happy second. I sincerely hope you do.

Too bad you live in a dream world, Blizzard clearly understands that delusions like yours doesn't stand any merit, hence the very much needed personal loot indeed.

[Dalinos]

Too bad you live in a dream world, Blizzard clearly understands that delusions like yours doesn't stand any merit, hence the very much needed personal loot indeed.

What a nice way to wave off all my arguments, while continuing to spout your bullshit. My "dream world" has been my reality for 12 years + of raiding. Why? Cause I looked for guilds that have mature leadership and fair loot rules. I pity you and feel sad for all the bad times you've had in WoW. I wish you find a guild that suits your playstyle so you can actually have some fun in the game.

You sound just like the parasites @marcusblood is talking about. It's doubtful you've ever had a parse above 80%. You sound like a person who's leeched off the efforts of others, for many many years, if the removal of ML is such a gleeful event for you. No serious raider wants 0 control over who gets what loot.

[MidnyteTV]

What a nice way to wave off all my arguments, while continuing to spout your bullshit. My "dream world" has been my reality for 12 years + of raiding. Why? Cause I looked for guilds that have mature leadership and fair loot rules. I pity you and feel sad for all the bad times you've had in WoW. I wish you find a guild that suits your playstyle so you can actually have some fun in the game.

You sound just like the parasites @marcusblood is talking about. It's doubtful you've ever had a parse above 80%. You sound like a person who's leeched off the efforts of others, for many many years, if the removal of ML is such a gleeful event for you. No serious raider wants 0 control over who gets what loot.

Pretty much this. They were those loot whores in a guild that thought any piece of gear that dropped they could equip belonged to them. We can see right through their bullshit.

[rrayy]

What a nice way to wave off all my arguments, while continuing to spout your bullshit.

Ironic because that is exactly what you are doing.

[Jastall]

Checkmate. 10/10 well said.

- - - Updated - - -

If there's one absolute truth in this thread is that there are a lot of entitled parasites who never had the guts or skill to run a guild.

Calm down there, Ayn Rand. Running a guild is mostly tedious bullshit for a lot of people, not something exclusively reserved to superhumans. The truth I see is that the monumental arrogance of some posters only reinforces the notion that players having control over loot is better left to history.

And before you try the personal attacks, I've been in guilds for years and got my Cutting Edges, so stow it with that sort of nonsense. Being a sweaty nerd that kills pixels for phat lewt can be fun, but hardly makes you special.

[MidnyteTV]

Calm down there, Ayn Rand. Running a guild is mostly tedious bullshit for a lot of people, not something exclusively reserved to superhumans. The truth I see is that the monumental arrogance of some posters only reinforces the notion that players having control over loot is better left to history.

And before you try the personal attacks, I've been in guilds for years and got my Cutting Edges, so stow it with that sort of nonsense. Being a sweaty nerd that kills pixels for phat lewt can be fun, but hardly makes you special.

LOL Ayn Rand? My preferred loot system for my group(s) was EPGP, which leaned more towards Socialism than anything.

To the bolded part, if you ran a guild you'd know that tedious is the least of the concerns of the hardworking, gutsy people that give people like you a chance at your CE's. It's stressful. Why? People of parasites like the people on this thread who care more about themselves than getting the CE's you claim to have.

Like I've always said, walk a mile in a GM's boots or STFU.

[Jastall]

LOL Ayn Rand? My preferred loot system for my group(s) was EPGP, which leaned more towards Socialism than anything.

To the bolded part, if you ran a guild you'd know that tedious is the least of the concerns of the hardworking, gutsy people that give people like you a chance at your CE's. It's stressful. Why? People of parasites like the people on this thread who care more about themselves than getting the CE's you claim to have.

Like I've always said, walk a mile in a GM's boots or STFU.

You really are trying to fit every single negative stereotype about raiders in your posts, aren't you. "Parasite"? If only you could see how cartoonish you sound when spouting that.

It's another of the reasons I'm glad to only be running Heroic anymore. Far less drama about... well... everything down there, not just loot, and a big reason for that is that nobody here thinks they're God's very own gift to their guild. Guess I'll take it if it makes me some filthy casual parasite that should never see loot ever, lol.

[MidnyteTV]

You really are trying to fit every single negative stereotype about raiders in your posts, aren't you. "Parasite"? If only you could see how cartoonish you sound when spouting that.

It's another of the reasons I'm glad to only be running Heroic anymore. Far less drama about... well... everything down there, not just loot, and a big reason for that is that nobody here thinks they're God's very own gift to their guild. Guess I'll take it if it makes me some filthy casual parasite that should never see loot ever, lol.

If I didn't see it with every PL supporter, I wouldn't call it out. Secondly, if people like PL and use it, I'm cool with it. But agreeing with its removal from guilds that used it effectively and to their liking is BS.

Finally, I ask you, please show me where people argued for ML's removal BEFORE it was removed in the BfA alpha datamining.

SPOILER: You won't find it.

[Jastall]

If I didn't see it with every PL supporter, I wouldn't call it out. Secondly, if people like PL and use it, I'm cool with it. But agreeing with its removal from guilds that used it effectively and to their liking is BS.

Finally, I ask you, please show me where people argued for ML's removal BEFORE it was removed in the BfA alpha datamining.

SPOILER: You won't find it.

Oh, if I bothered I would definitely find it (and would have a field day on the official forums! boy oh boy do the people there hate perceived elitism), but then you'd likely call those people parasites as well and reject what they say, same as you do here and now, so I question the validity of the experiment. Besides, opinions change, I was against the removal of ML before BFA, but steadily grew to appreciate how much drama it removed from guilds even before I stepped down from Mythic due to RL constraints.

[MidnyteTV]

Oh, if I bothered I would definitely find it (and would have a field day on the official forums! boy oh boy do the people there hate perceived elitism), but then you'd likely call those people parasites as well and reject what they say, same as you do here and now, so I question the validity of the experiment. Besides, opinions change, I was against the removal of ML before BFA, but steadily grew to appreciate how much drama it removed from guilds even before I stepped down from Mythic due to RL constraints.

That's what I thought. Listen, we've already proven people on this forum have lied about their experiences in guilds. It's all just a fantasy. I get it, I've looted so many bosses. I see a trinket drop, everyone in raid thinks it belongs to them. Then it goes to someone else. We don't like it. However, people like me like seeing everyone get gear and be happy.

From my experience, PL creates such a random, uneven distribution that cant be controlled that winds up making it difficult to sustain a core group. People can gear up on one night and just find a way not to show up for progression.

[Jastall]

That's what I thought. Listen, we've already proven people on this forum have lied about their experiences in guilds. It's all just a fantasy. I get it, I've looted so many bosses. I see a trinket drop, everyone in raid thinks it belongs to them. Then it goes to someone else. We don't like it. However, people like me like seeing everyone get gear and be happy.

From my experience, PL creates such a random, uneven distribution that cant be controlled that winds up making it difficult to sustain a core group. People can gear up on one night and just find a way not to show up for progression.

So everyone that doesn't agree with you is just lying? Right, whatever lets you sleep at night. That's three posts from you with either direct or heavily implied insults.

I've seen the total opposite anyway. ML doesn't necessarily means favoritism, but it does mean high performing DPS get more loot while everyone else- lower performing DPS, healers, tanks- wait in line to some degree or another. It equalizes over time obviously, but I've seen some shit during Antorus especially where I got gear thrown at me because Fury was meta while the other plate DPS got bracers and shit. Some might say it's a meritocracy, but given that performance in this game relies on far more factors than just your own personal skills, it's a very flawed meritocracy indeed.

Of course, the larger issue right now in SL is raid gear being too rare and not being that good until Mythic, but that's not something ML would solve at all.

[MidnyteTV]

So everyone that doesn't agree with you is just lying? Right, whatever lets you sleep at night. That's three posts from you with either direct or heavily implied insults.

I've seen the total opposite anyway. ML doesn't necessarily means favoritism, but it does mean high performing DPS get more loot while everyone else- lower performing DPS, healers, tanks- wait in line to some degree or another. It equalizes over time obviously, but I've seen some shit during Antorus especially where I got gear thrown at me because Fury was meta while the other plate DPS got bracers and shit. Some might say it's a meritocracy, but given that performance in this game relies on far more factors than just your own personal skills, it's a very flawed meritocracy indeed.

Of course, the larger issue right now in SL is raid gear being too rare and not being that good until Mythic, but that's not something ML would solve at all.

No, somebody here claimed their guild screwed them over gear for 4 months. Upon contacting said GM, they denied anything like that (selling DKP) took place. So please, spare us your fantasies of being screwed over by gear.

[Jastall]

No, somebody here claimed their guild screwed them over gear for 4 months. Upon contacting said GM, they denied anything like that (selling DKP) took place. So please, spare us your fantasies of being screwed over by gear.

That's... what? First, I'm not that person, second, anecdotal evidence, third, I wasn't screwed out of loot, other DPS were in this particular instance, not out of spite from the loot council (or so I think) but just because of how the system works. Are you truly that incapable of nuance that all you saw there that you didn't even read my post and assumed I was complaining about not getting gear?

[kaminaris]

Uhm...you are aware of the existence of Warcraft Logs, correct? "Whoever it benefits the raid the most" is actually quite easy to see, through logs, if the people looking at the logs know what to look for. It's...really not that hard.

If you think it's easy to see who contributed to raid the most from logs then you are beyond redemption. And also the reason why master loot is gone. I am also pretty sure you never raid leaded.

I will give you something to chew on: who is contributed more, the A guy that did most dps but failed couple times or the B guy who did average dps but every single mechanic correct and never failed once.

[Popokolara]

If you think it's easy to see who contributed to raid the most from logs then you are beyond redemption. And also the reason why master loot is gone. I am also pretty sure you never raid leaded.

I will give you something to chew on: who is contributed more, the A guy that did most dps but failed couple times or the B guy who did average dps but every single mechanic correct and never failed once.

Logs have detailed analysis of a lot of things like mechanic failure, specific casts to see how someone reacted, consumables, movement with a small variety of indicator and features (new log replay is amazing!) i certainly hope a person using logs actually looks in depth for all these factors and not just the number.

if they want to use a number no need for logs, can just check details window.

The good player as an example is the warlock doing seeds on artificer while also doing high damage.

[kaminaris]

Logs have detailed analysis of a lot of things like mechanic failure, specific casts to see how someone reacted, consumables, movement with a small variety of indicator and features (new log replay is amazing!) i certainly hope a person using logs actually looks in depth for all these factors and not just the number.

if they want to use a number no need for logs, can just check details window.

The good player as an example is the warlock doing seeds on artificer while also doing high damage.

Dude, I've been raid leading, taking into consideration ALL the aspects takes tremendous amount of time. Especially the part when you confirm "what the hell happened at that moment" when you use replay.

Just checking how much someone died isn't enough. Neither is checking what was the average dps. Not to mention how you compare close people with guy A having +3% more dps vs guy B but died 1 more time than him.

It is far from simple. Somewhat another reason for ML gone is wannabe "log analyst expert" that do 3 minute skim and call it a day. And at the end it is impossible to compare players without huge amount of samples.