For the Forsaken loyalists

[Minikin]

Why would Kel'thuzad be a factor? If you're a Forsaken and still a loyalist then it doesn't matter who Sylvanus allies with. She's trying to help kill everyone on Azeroth. You have to be insane to still follow her.

Don't ask me the why man (cuz that confuses me too). I just wanna know if people like that exist. Looking at the poll, I guess we got some (and I guess since its public people feeling shy). I'm not gonna bother asking why because that's a rabbit hole I'd rather not explore.

[Sondrelk]

Arthas has a much larger body count than Sylvanas and his Scourge made a giant out of dead women and children that were all fully aware as they screamed for you to put them out of their misery. He has done absolutely everything Sylvanas has done + another one in pretty much every aspect and Scholomance alone, which is only one outpost of one aspect of the Scourge dwarfs the entire activity of the R.A.S. over their seventeen year in-game existence. There's much that can be said about Sylvanas, but let's not kid ourselves here.

Further, the whole gist of Sylvanas's argument and why this motivation would halfway work if it was her own plan rather than some BS Satan told her is that her actions are reversible. Sure, those souls are now burning in hell and sure, it sucks to be them, but once she has the necessary power she'll free them and everyone else into paradise. The complete sociopathy of this kind of thinking where she judges herself as being able to decide that women and children are fine being picked apart by Sauron wannabes plus the iffiness of everyone getting a happily ever after no matter what harm they did in life would already be reason enough for her to be a main antagonist, while also grounding her perspective. The game toys with this perfectly servicable animu tier-goal, but it doesn't go the whole distance because we know that she has no independent plan to actually do this, but is entirely reliant on someone who obviously doesn't give two shits about this. This story is reliant on Sylvanas, an extremely vain and prideful character who's based most of her decisions on what helps her and thinking she knows best, to be both inexplicably trusting and inexplicably deferring to a figure she has no reason to trust. Nevermind what Kel'thuzad did to Lordaeron you can at least say she's past giving a shit about that, what he brought on her alone to get her into this point alone while not being essential to giving her more power like the Jailer should be reason alone for her to conspire to get rid of him. Her not caring about Kel'thuzad because she's already done so much bad shit and is desensitized would be one thing, her not caring about Kel'thuzad but trusting the Jailer and feeling bad about Anduin is quite another.

@Minikin

Arthas and Anduin's situations are similar only in terms of visual design. Past that Anduin's basically a sockpuppet whereas Arthas was still lugging his own soul around in Frostmourne and was obviously able to think and act given we have a whole book from his perspective that largely takes place after the fact. Not to say that this discounts the Arthas redemption route, quite the contrary. Their ability to completely miss the point with Sylvanas reinforces that they'll also completely miss the point with Arthas.

Given the benefit of the doubt I guess we have not gotten any definitive evidence that SSylvanas is actually subservient to the Jailer. She could in theory still be planning that Backgammon checkmate against the Jailer intending to have her own plans.

[Enclave]

Kelthuzad did nothing wrong so what's the issue?

[Super Dickmann]

Given the benefit of the doubt I guess we have not gotten any definitive evidence that SSylvanas is actually subservient to the Jailer. She could in theory still be planning that Backgammon checkmate against the Jailer intending to have her own plans.

They missed the chance to make her the end boss. A lot about the story in its own right hinges on if they can get anything out of the Jailer in the next one since he'll have to carry the rest of the expansion, be it one or two patches, which I'm really not seeing.

[Tarba]

If you are forsaken AND a sylvanas loyalist, would you still remain by her side if you found out she is on the same team as Kelthuzad?

What's the meaning of that question?
In wow what a character, player or non player, do is not linked in any way with what he did before. So why would a character think about what an other character think about what an other character did before? That would be crazy. I mean, what he did a patch before... maybe, but more than that it's madness..

[Sondrelk]

They missed the chance to make her the end boss. A lot about the story in its own right hinges on if they can get anything out of the Jailer in the next one since he'll have to carry the rest of the expansion, be it one or two patches, which I'm really not seeing.

I wouldnt say they missed it exactly. I have said before and I still stand by that the main antagonist we defeat is not necessarily the final raid boss of the expansion. Legion still ended with us defeating Sargeras even if the final boss was Argus. Similarly Sylvanas could survive the raid boss fight and then be the antagonist we need to defeat even in the final patches.

[Arrashi]

My character is not insane. Only poor people are insane, he is eccentric.

Words to live by.

OT: I would trade her for KT anytime.

[Super Dickmann]

I wouldnt say they missed it exactly. I have said before and I still stand by that the main antagonist we defeat is not necessarily the final raid boss of the expansion. Legion still ended with us defeating Sargeras even if the final boss was Argus. Similarly Sylvanas could survive the raid boss fight and then be the antagonist we need to defeat even in the final patches.

It's a possibility, just a fairly low chance given the way she's been framed. They're heavily investing in her as a duped minion regretting her choices more so than an unscrupulous one with her own plans waiting for the chance to strike. They could reverse track of course, but Blizzard telegraph their moves well in advance.

[bagina]

First I would ask Sylvanas why is she a minon of some lame dude now and why is she wearing that ridiculous outfit. Then I'd ask where is the real Sylvanas.

Speaking as a Forsaken and Sylvanas fan, making Sylvanas into a naive retard to build up Blue Satan is a worse story choice than having her be a cartoon evil. There's more technical skill to her interactions with Anduin, her motive is cool, but if anything too charitable for a character who, after her death was always focused on herself first, if anyone else can be helped that's a nice extra. Danuser appreciates the character the same way the Arthas fans clamoring for his redemption appreciate that guy's character - they want that character to be happy and good and succeed, even if that defeats the whole point of the arc up to this point. Making Sylvanas realize two destroyed kingdoms in that maybe Blue Satan is bad because Anduin told her to actually look at the art design of the helltower full of tortured souls is comedy. The crux of Danuser's complete missing of the point is that one line by the God-King about the ranger-general eclipsing the Banshee Queen - Sylvanas doesn't have the wherewithal and role in the setting to allow the men in suits to let him do three straight expansion cinematics with her because of herself as a ranger, anymore than the reason Batman movies are greenlit is because of how much viewers relate to baby Bruce Wayne as an obsessive Zorro fan.

Indeed. Excellently said. I'd rather they doubled down on her being Dick Dastardly then turn her into this... weak-willed, stripped of agency thing she's now.

Essentialy she's the Saurfang to Jailer's Sylvanas and that's stupid as fuck.

[Super Dickmann]

Indeed. Excellently said. I'd rather they doubled down on her being Dick Dastardly then turn her into this... weak-willed, stripped of agency thing she's now.

Essentialy she's the Saurfang to Jailer's Sylvanas and that's stupid as fuck.

She's the Baine to the Jailer's Sylvanas, except a step further in that she doesn't misread someone else's actions but her own actions just an expansion prior. Both are fine with watching and or actually doing things like genocide, mind control or human experimentation, but shy away when the one affected is a blonde human from a prominent bloodline. It's pretty funny in that sense.

I'm at a loss for the audience of a Sylvanas redemption story. The people who don't like the character want her dead for the things she's done and would be pissed if she got a crappy copout after having dunked on them over and over again, denying them the vengeance they're after. The people who do like her character, despite the trouble, aren't fans of her because of her as Ranger-General. The prospect of her reverting to her WC3 Reign of Chaos characterization is just weird and uncanny. This means that the only people who could possibly be serviced by this narrative are those who like the name Sylvanas and the broad stroke of the character and would like that name to be associated with someone who got a happy/sad ending, irrespective of both the audience and what the character's actually done and been associated with.

[Dead Moose Fandango]

Yes. I must obey the boobs. /s

[Sondrelk]

She's the Baine to the Jailer's Sylvanas, except a step further in that she doesn't misread someone else's actions but her own actions just an expansion prior. Both are fine with watching and or actually doing things like genocide, mind control or human experimentation, but shy away when the one affected is a blonde human from a prominent bloodline. It's pretty funny in that sense.

I'm at a loss for the audience of a Sylvanas redemption story. The people who don't like the character want her dead for the things she's done and would be pissed if she got a crappy copout after having dunked on them over and over again, denying them the vengeance they're after. The people who do like her character, despite the trouble, aren't fans of her because of her as Ranger-General. The prospect of her reverting to her WC3 Reign of Chaos characterization is just weird and uncanny. This means that the only people who could possibly be serviced by this narrative are those who like the name Sylvanas and the broad stroke of the character and would like that name to be associated with someone who got a happy/sad ending, irrespective of both the audience and what the character's actually done and been associated with.

All we can do really is cross our fingers and hope that Blizzard knows better.
The redemption stuff is a meme, but really it has only been Kerrigan where they played it straight that a person who willingly became evil got a redemption for hamfisted reasons. Even with Illidan the game and even Illidan himself agreed that he didnt actually deserve any redemption.

I am legitimately curious what they will do with her story now though. Any sort of action where she actually cares for anyone would seem grossly out of character when she even got rid of Nathanos just recently.
The idea that she turns because of Anduin is pretty laughable. Even treating Anduin like the story wants us to treat him he hasnt actually done anything to make Sylvanas believe that he is her road to redemption. The best we can do is that she might have reasons to believe that he cares more for her people than she does, but so does seemingly literally anyone else even remotely positive to Forsaken in general.


A Sylvanas redemption is pretty much exactly like redeeming Kerrigan, except with even less justification. Kerrigan's redemption was somehow supposed to be fueled by appealing to her humanity, but she had not shown any good reason to care previously, she just suddenly decides that she doesnt want to kill people wantonly. I guess we are to infer because of Raynors mean face whenever she starts slaughtering people.

[Firefall]

It depends heavily on who is in charge to me, and if we actually believe Blizzard, KT would be a minion of Sylvanas now, right? Because she's supposed to be working with the Jailor and not a minion of him, they said they are a pair. (Not that the game really gives that impression most of the time...)

Using one of the people responsible for the majority of pain in your life? In character for her and makes it forgivable if you still believe that she has some greater end goal. Setting aside the past and working *with* them for a greater goal? Awful.

[omeomorfismo]

If you are forsaken AND a sylvanas loyalist, would you still remain by her side if you found out she is on the same team as Kelthuzad?

yes sure, thats the point of roleplaying a fanatic (or at least they were when i created the character)

[bagina]

She's the Baine to the Jailer's Sylvanas, except a step further in that she doesn't misread someone else's actions but her own actions just an expansion prior. Both are fine with watching and or actually doing things like genocide, mind control or human experimentation, but shy away when the one affected is a blonde human from a prominent bloodline. It's pretty funny in that sense.

Ha, completely forgot about Baine. Agree on the rest.

[Minikin]

Ha, completely forgot about Baine. Agree on the rest.

I for sure thought you'd vote yes.

[Powerogue]

There are still forsaken sylvanas loyalists? I'm pretty sure the point of the end of BFA was to end even the thirstiest of them. My forsaken loyalist wants her head on a pike after talking about how she pitied the forsaken before abandoning them. That should've been the end of it. If you're still a loyalist, she has, pun very much intended, forsaken you.

Speaking of, anyone seen Nathanos? Because as of right now my best guess is soul #347 that went spiralling over me in the River of Souls in the Maw, talking about how Sylvanas would save him.

[Itisamuh]

Yep. I sided with her, and chose this race and faction in the first place, in the hopes of getting to play the bad guy later. I could not care less about the factions, if siding with her meant wiping them all out and spreading death, all the better.

[Frozenbeef]

I'm not a sylvanas fan but...She is obviously acting for the greater good...in her own way... as she has always done...she hated the lich king with her entire being, the second he died she found he was just a puppet, so she went after the puppeteer, the only way to do that was get close to him and show she can be trusted (ergo one big enkindled stump)

[RCA]

Highsights 20/10 imo. Can’t help saying that as after I hear the 20/20 saying. Ummm yea her story is all over the place now that everyone is going to like/hate her for whatever reason. My lastest gripe is how can she be so naive if the story goes the way we think it will, her redeeming herself in someway. Hey maybe when that happens will get her shock death by tyrande jumping out of nowhere and chopping her in two.