The Most Profond M+ Meta Ever?

[Matthias]

DH Tank, Boomy, Hunter, Mage, Rshaman.

I wanna be clear in terms of design, SL M+ is probably my favorite, I love how certain classes can shine within certain encounters and I feel it really encourages ones tool kit.

Legion was kind of just an AoE Stun fest (with more interesting boss encounters). BFA was overloaded with trash, with a lot more to interrupt but the tank could take care of most of it. All though most of the weight is on the tank once again in SL it feels more collobarative needing CC for kitting, dispelling enrages, mob displacement, etc. Each pulls feel a bit less like a DPS zerg and more like a fast paced puzzle that needs to be addressed ASAP. It kind of reminds me of TBC Heroics in a way when you consider its a bit easier to pull aggro this xpac.

I think it's cool to not just seek out the highest IO and look for class that provides, Lust, Brez, the ability skip packs, etc.

Problem is you have several classes that just aren't built for the new found design. I'm constantly struggling to find groups a Protection Warrior, and I'm used to having tank priviledge. Yet to get all of my 15s timed I often had to push my own key. Now that I'm trying to go beyond 15s the same problem occurs.

I can't even get mad because when I personally want to time my key I seek out some combo of Boomy, Hunter, Mage and while most healers are viable if I really want it timed I go with a Resto Shaman.

I've never seen this. Last season of BFA I got to 2700 and while of course some classes statistically performed better than others, the spot was sold to the highest bidder on IO. Shadowlands it breaks my heart when I see high io DPS Warriors or Ret Paladins app, whisper that they've even made the effort to become engineers to boost their utility and I have to look them over because they're utility is just so meager in comparision to other options.

What are your guys thoughts and what do you think should be done? If you ask me I think Blizzard should add a fourth column to Talents, the current talent system was developed prior to Mythic+ I think an additional option for each class that may boost their utility at the expense of some DPS could help.

[LosiroWoW]

There's enough variety since you didn't even list the meta. Which is DH / Boomy / Rogue / Mage / Hpal.

[RobertoCarlos]

Blizzard doesn't really seem to care about balancing utility. It's been this way forever with healers. Disc, holy pally, and shaman have had lots of utility for a while, and resto druid, mistweaver, and holy priest have had very weak utility, and it just stays that way, patch after patch after patch. So while the throughput numbers are the same, everyone prefers the three utility specs. This mostly been the case since late Cata, when shammies, which up until that point were a meme spec, got spirit link. You still saw a resto druid here and there in mop, and disc went through some reworks, but shammy, holy pally, and disc have been mainstays for 5+ expansions now, druid has been niche at best, mistweaver has had very brief moments where they became viable but has mostly sucked, and holy priest is forgotten.

Don't expect it to change, just make sure you're playing one of the classes blizz favors.

Right now if you look at shammy versus mistweaver in raids, it's ridiculous. Shammy has spirit link, ankh totem, mana tide which gives the other healers mana, healing tide, and better throughput than mistweaver. Mistweaver has revival, which is awful unless you need a mass dispel, one of the worst tank cds in the game, and is the first healer to call for an innervate because they have no mana. It's crazy and obvious, but they don't care.

resto druid has weak utility?

Ok......

[RobertoCarlos]

True... resto druid has some, but shammy almost always has more.

Idk, you look at them currently and its pretty close. So many dungeons need Soothe. Let alone battle res etc

Resto druid does more damage as well. But shammy's healing output is better and with tanks taking so much damage I can see why shaman get the nod over druid but its close. And if they nerf tank damage received from dungeons druids could push ahead if being able to damage becomes more viable which normally happens as players get mad end of expac gear regardless of nerfs to content.

[RobertoCarlos]

My comment was focused on raids, where spirit link’s utility has made it very difficult to ever argue for druid over shammy. Sorry that wasn’t clear.

ohok yeah fair enough. Be nice if they removed the raid tax on tranquility at least.

[Skillslam]

Seems balanced to me OP.

Treants, Solar Beam, Ursol's, Typhoon, Mass Entanglement, Soothe, Brez, Innervate, uncapped AOE

vs.

Rallying Cry

KEKW

[Argorwal]

Idk, you look at them currently and its pretty close. So many dungeons need Soothe. Let alone battle res etc

Resto druid does more damage as well. But shammy's healing output is better and with tanks taking so much damage I can see why shaman get the nod over druid but its close. And if they nerf tank damage received from dungeons druids could push ahead if being able to damage becomes more viable which normally happens as players get mad end of expac gear regardless of nerfs to content.

It’s funny because resto shamans are virtually unchanged from BFA where they sucked in mythic+ and resto druids dominated.

Then in SL we add a little tank damage and bump their throughput and all of a sudden shamans are meta and people talk about their utility.

[Relapses]

Blizzard doesn't really seem to care about balancing utility. It's been this way forever with healers. Disc, holy pally, and shaman have had lots of utility for a while, and resto druid, mistweaver, and holy priest have had very weak utility, and it just stays that way, patch after patch after patch. So while the throughput numbers are the same, everyone prefers the three utility specs. This mostly been the case since late Cata, when shammies, which up until that point were a meme spec, got spirit link. You still saw a resto druid here and there in mop, and disc went through some reworks, but shammy, holy pally, and disc have been mainstays for 5+ expansions now, druid has been niche at best, mistweaver has had very brief moments where they became viable but has mostly sucked, and holy priest is forgotten.

Don't expect it to change, just make sure you're playing one of the classes blizz favors.

Right now if you look at shammy versus mistweaver in raids, it's ridiculous. Shammy has spirit link, ankh totem, mana tide which gives the other healers mana, healing tide, and better throughput than mistweaver. Mistweaver has revival, which is awful unless you need a mass dispel, one of the worst tank cds in the game, and is the first healer to call for an innervate because they have no mana. It's crazy and obvious, but they don't care.

R Druid's lack of utility in raids has always been the fact that this class can pump HPS like nobody's business. They're devalued now that other healers can pump similar HPS while also pumping DPS but that has less to do with class design and more to do with Blizzard's idiotic decision to validate the subsection of its playerbase that likes to DPS and heal at the same time.

[Th3Scourge]

Unless you're pushing 23+ keys this is a pointless discussion. It's perfectly reasonable that people pushing the highest keys would need to bring as much utility as possible.

You're weekly 15 will be fine with any comp...

[Tiberria]

resto druid has weak utility?

Ok......

In raids - absolutely. The biggest things that give RDruids strong M+ utility are largely useless in raids. BRezz doesn't add much in a raid when you probably have several DPS that can cast it. Stampeding Roar is largely the same, with every Druid spec bringing it, plus any Shaman able to effectively spec into something similar. Stealth is historically a big play in M+ but irrelevant in raids.

There's a reason the last 4-5 bosses in Mythic CN have 20x or more representation from Disc Priests, Holy Paladins and Resto Shaman than Resto Druids (or MW).

- - - Updated - - -

R Druid's lack of utility in raids has always been the fact that this class can pump HPS like nobody's business. They're devalued now that other healers can pump similar HPS while also pumping DPS but that has less to do with class design and more to do with Blizzard's idiotic decision to validate the subsection of its playerbase that likes to DPS and heal at the same time.

That is objectively false. RDruid HPS in raids is basically the same as that of every other spec, and hasn't been dominant at any point since at least early Legion. A 20 second look at WCL aggregate data would show you that.

[Roship]

Its fun queuing for groups for hours on end getting declined constantly as a dps warrior. Even though in the 15s I run, i consistantly sit overall 6k+ dps. Few runs I've even pulled 7.5k overall. But that doesn't seem to matter much, it feels very bad compared to last expansion i agree. Everything in dungeons seems to one shot everyone now, so if you don't bring multiple utility tools, youre fucked for a spot.

[GnomeEU]

Its fun queuing for groups for hours on end getting declined constantly as a dps warrior. Even though in the 15s I run, i consistantly sit overall 6k+ dps. Few runs I've even pulled 7.5k overall. But that doesn't seem to matter much, it feels very bad compared to last expansion i agree. Everything in dungeons seems to one shot everyone now, so if you don't bring multiple utility tools, youre fucked for a spot.

I've done many m15 runs with warriors.

The dps is just avg, on par with all other classes.
The utility is bad.
They die alot more than other dps.
They usually got their gear from pvp, which also gives them less experience in dungeons.
They take alot more dmg than other classes which means the healer can't dps as much or has to waste globals on them, while a hunter or mage takes zero dmg.

Overall my experience with dps warrior is not good.
You can be lucky and they're very good. Then they're on par with the other dps.

I think I haven't seen a single awesome dps warrior.
Most of the time it's, oh the warrior can't attack because there's fire.
Oh the warrior got hit by some cleave again.
So I understand why people won't pick them for their runs.

90% of the time I see a warrior in a group its because he's from the same guild as the tank or something.

[Roship]

I've done many m15 runs with warriors.

The dps is just avg, on par with all other classes.
The utility is bad.
They die alot more than other dps.
They usually got their gear from pvp, which also gives them less experience in dungeons.
They take alot more dmg than other classes which means the healer can't dps as much or has to waste globals on them, while a hunter or mage takes zero dmg.

Overall my experience with dps warrior is not good.
You can be lucky and they're very good. Then they're on par with the other dps.

I think I haven't seen a single awesome dps warrior.
Most of the time it's, oh the warrior can't attack because there's fire.
Oh the warrior got hit by some cleave again.
So I understand why people won't pick them for their runs.

90% of the time I see a warrior in a group its because he's from the same guild as the tank or something.

Yeah its understandable. We do 0 damage unless we can smack things, so having to move out from mechanics sucks. I think we also sim in the bottom like 3-5 dps specs. Hopefully next patch will bring some kind of changes to improve the class. Bringing Shockwave back as a baseline ability would be a much needed change.

[Relapses]

That is objectively false. RDruid HPS in raids is basically the same as that of every other spec, and hasn't been dominant at any point since at least early Legion. A 20 second look at WCL aggregate data would show you that.

They excel in situations that are hard to see in aggregate data which is exactly why I said what I said the way that I said it. But sure, let's all pretend that R Druids are mediocre raid healers with no purpose because, well, fuck Blizzard or something.

[Matthias]

I've done many m15 runs with warriors.

The dps is just avg, on par with all other classes.
The utility is bad.
They die alot more than other dps.
They usually got their gear from pvp, which also gives them less experience in dungeons.
They take alot more dmg than other classes which means the healer can't dps as much or has to waste globals on them, while a hunter or mage takes zero dmg.

Overall my experience with dps warrior is not good.
You can be lucky and they're very good. Then they're on par with the other dps.

I think I haven't seen a single awesome dps warrior.
Most of the time it's, oh the warrior can't attack because there's fire.
Oh the warrior got hit by some cleave again.
So I understand why people won't pick them for their runs.

90% of the time I see a warrior in a group its because he's from the same guild as the tank or something.

I've had plenty of success with off meta classes. Point is that when you're trying to maximize your chance of success with strangers, the more tools they bring to the table the better. I mean Boomkins with their burst and treants can just nullify an entire pack. Mages Combust can annihilate everything. Meanwhile Hunters do well....everything? Only time I seek out a DPS Warrior when I need a Venthyr, boom utility.

[TheAld]

Unless you're pushing 23+ keys this is a pointless discussion. It's perfectly reasonable that people pushing the highest keys would need to bring as much utility as possible.

You're weekly 15 will be fine with any comp...

Except it's not a pointless discussion. Yes, your weekly 15 would be fine with most comps. However, the community's perspective matters a tonne. When things like DPS warriors are known by the entire community to bring way less utility than other classes, or certain specs are known to be 15-20% behind (or more in AoE, etc.), then nobody is going to give them a chance over someone playing a meta spec in PuGs.

[Temp name]

I've had plenty of success with off meta classes. Point is that when you're trying to maximize your chance of success with strangers, the more tools they bring to the table the better. I mean Boomkins with their burst and treants can just nullify an entire pack. Mages Combust can annihilate everything. Meanwhile Hunters do well....everything? Only time I seek out a DPS Warrior when I need a Venthyr, boom utility.

And even if you want a venthyr, why bring a warrior when you can bring a resto shaman or Hpal? Both of which are meta picks, where venthyr is either the best or 2nd best covenant in m+.

Or if you want you can grab a VDH who can also go venthyr with only minor downsides (Though in your case as a tank yourself, you can't)

[Th3Scourge]

Except it's not a pointless discussion. Yes, your weekly 15 would be fine with most comps. However, the community's perspective matters a tonne. When things like DPS warriors are known by the entire community to bring way less utility than other classes, or certain specs are known to be 15-20% behind (or more in AoE, etc.), then nobody is going to give them a chance over someone playing a meta spec in PuGs.

I get the meta perception but it really is a pointless discussion because 1. you can't change it unless you remove the ability to form groups and 2. it's not going to stop you timing a key.

[Gourbaak]

Even for a meta class it's still hard to get grouped for 15 because there is so many dps tagging for so few tank. I don't know what blizzard can do about that

[Azerate]

No matter how much you balance things, there will always be the best combination of classes/skills/whatever.