TBC players might get pre-nerf bosses

[DeltaLimaCharlie]

I'm all for tuning and changes to make TBC feel closer to how it felt originally. I hated listening to people talk about "If only Blizzard rolled out patches in phases, classic would have been so much harder and super challenging". Sure I would have been fine with that but I played all through Vanilla and I'm sorry the only way you make that content even remotely "challenging" is through changes and tuning. The only challenging part of Naxx right now is simply getting enough raiders on who still wanna raid.

[Akka]

The only challenging part of Naxx right now is simply getting enough raiders on who still wanna raid.

When people actually do the content without stacking WB and consummable and not having trained on the content for months already, I'll take this affirmation seriously.

[DeltaLimaCharlie]

When people actually do the content without stacking WB and consummable and not having trained on the content for months already, I'll take this affirmation seriously.

That's my point though those were in the game and available to players...I'd have preferred it had been changed and Classic released without WB and consumables but we don't live in that world. I don't think anyone playing right now likes WB, at all. Truthfully even without WB and half the consumes most bosses in Naxx are not even in the realm of challenging. Saph is really the only roadblock and that's simply a numbers game, mechanically it's super easy. What I'm getting at is they need to make changes and tune fights so that there can be, in the very least, a sense of challenge.

[stevenho]

Naxx was laughed about "only 58 mn to clear it". Reality check : it's still challenging progress for a lot of guilds, and very few do it without WB, which completely cheapen the content.
TBC won't have WB to carry people, so while I don't expect any raid will be uncleared more than one reset, and probably not more than one evening, I'm pretty sure the vast majority of people not in overprepared (oh oh) hardcore guilds will have a decent (and even pretty hard) challenge in front of them.

You're probably right, but on the other hand if you took the people who will struggle in unbuffed TBC, they would struggle somewhere between LFR and normal difficulty on retail.
In other words - keyboard turners.

[exsanguinate]

Pre nerf alone won't be enough. Start with Patch 2.0 instead of 2.4.3 and progress upwards.
Still, for new players who never played TBC before they will have a rough time.

[Dundebuns]

and M'uru was never actually killed in pre-nerf form

I think maybe one or two guilds killed him pre-nerf? I remember we only managed ot push him into phase two once before he was hit.

[Crionics]

I'm very curious how Kael'Thas will go for the average raider. I remember a lot of moving parts for that fight. The advisors and weapons had to be killed in certain spots and tanked by specific people like Warlock tanking one advisor. I had to tank one of the weapons as a Rogue for the strat we ran. I wonder how necessary more intricate strats like that will be. It requires a level of coordination even raids today don't have with needing certain ads to die in certain spots and classes who aren't by any means tanks to tank an ad.

[Heathy]

kael wasn't so bad making sure you grab a weapon was paramount for some classes like healers grabbing the mace the buff reduces fire damage by something huge, so you had to make sure you kept that on the tank, similarly the tank has to get the shield or they might get one tapped by pyroblast.

the problem with kael was that it is a long fight and after 10 minutes of combat ppl start to make stupid mistakes. but there was some overlap on the adds abilities not getting fear bombed into conflag for one. the little pheonix adds did some sort of farting thing that hit pretty hard, couple ticks of that and you ded. I remember healing this and It was one fight where as a priest I got some use out of the lightwell, I left it for a druid tanking the hunter add, and he could keep himself alive with the well and kite the guy in a circle, for the most part, and I could help out on the other adds a bit. somewhat anecdotal but I do remember this being one of the only fights where I actually remember the lightwell being useful.

[Akka]

You're probably right, but on the other hand if you took the people who will struggle in unbuffed TBC, they would struggle somewhere between LFR and normal difficulty on retail.
In other words - keyboard turners.

Stop spreading the retail BS about "easier than LFR".
Naxx is easily as hard as a heroic raid in retail (not mythic, but heroic definitely).

[stevenho]

Stop spreading the retail BS about "easier than LFR".

I said harder than LFR, not easier.
Easier than normals. Played both retail and TBC extensively and this is my experience. Feel free to have yours, just dont rage.

[Argorwal]

Stop spreading the retail BS about "easier than LFR".
Naxx is easily as hard as a heroic raid in retail (not mythic, but heroic definitely).

From doing both CN and Naxx I would put Naxx more in the early boss heroic CN level overall.

And Naxx trash at a million times more likely to cause a wipe on a bad miss pull.

Naxx really is a big step up though, it was disappointing to see how easy MC/BWL/AQ40 were.

[Akka]

I said harder than LFR, not easier.
Easier than normals. Played both retail and TBC extensively and this is my experience. Feel free to have yours, just dont rage.

Saying Naxx is easier than normal implies that the rest is easier than LFR, which is BS.
And Naxx is DEFINITELY NOT easier than normal, that's just as much BS.

From doing both CN and Naxx I would put Naxx more in the early boss heroic CN level overall.

Yeah, but even that's only because of WB and consummable stacking. Without them it's probably harder than entire Heroic CN overall. Blizzard dropped the ball severely by never acting against WB abuse.

And Naxx trash at a million times more likely to cause a wipe on a bad miss pull.

Naxx really is a big step up though, it was disappointing to see how easy MC/BWL/AQ40 were.

MC was exactly as easy as I remembered. BWL and Naxx were a bit easier than expected but still roughly within what I thought.
AQ40 was the only real disappointment. I thought it would be more in-line with what Naxx with WB/consumables is, instead of "barely harder than BWL".

[Haosmash]

I would say that heroic sire is harder than whole classic altogether when done with proper ilvl

[Orwell7]

Oh come, if a sensible player sits down and play wow, and WANT to improve, the raids are not "hard".
Hell, we've had CLICKERS in my guild when we defeated Anub in ToC25 HARD mode! And those players were the shit "back in vanilla and tbc"

GTFO, raiding is NOT hard, at all. Having stoned, drunk players who watch some series on another monitor, those make raiding hard.

[Echocho]

TBC was the hardest raiding Blizz ever made.

If you ignore everything that came afterwards then yes.

If you want challenging raids you have that option with retail. I prefer piss easy content myself so I'm sticking to Classic.

I raid to relax not to stress myself out. Retail raids are too hard, in Classic I can talk shit with my friends and watch Netflix on a second screen. We don't have to minmax the shit out of the game and can play what's fun. We don't have to bench fun people in favor of high performing toxic assholes.

[vashe9]

Holy hell, Vashj fight prenerf. I was the one who had to kitting for the "aoe fear" mob during the whole phase... It was so good when we finally beat her

[stevenho]

Holy hell, Vashj fight prenerf. I was the one who had to kitting for the "aoe fear" mob during the whole phase... It was so good when we finally beat her

Guess what - it will die in 2 HoJs in classic. 10 seconds or so.

[krouger]

Pre-nerf Vashj and Kael was never hard.

The challenge started at Brutallus, and M'uru was never actually killed in pre-nerf form. The latter will only appeal to the hardcore raiders.

you are mistaking pre nerf with pre bug fix content

[Speedlance]

For 95% of guilds pre nerfed versions will be a solid challenge. However the short respawn timer on kael thrash is not fun, so that one they remove.

[Tehalbino]

There were 8 guilds that killed muru pre nerf. We got it the Monday before that patch, then just 1 shot it the next day. Not sure what this other bogus info was that so many more guilds downed it.

Kt wasn't Killable in original form unless you had an army of warlock alts to soulstone almost your entire raid (first brought to light around ToC in wotlk iirc) because he would just instantly kill everyone that had aggro (healers mainly) when he transitioned.

Original Vashj had a myriad of issues but aside from the major 'bugs' (eg. exponentially increasing amounts of puddles from sporebats) she was very much killable.


I did all the content when it was fresh and new, it's going to get steamrolled just as hard as classic was. I do miss doing bosses pre-mods with trial and error. We sent logs to the author of dbm back then to get the mod functioning.