Flying tricked AGAIN

[Dhrizzle]

Because its designed around ground mounts. They can design questing around flying mounts to fix this problem. And for world pvp, they can simply disable flying in warmode

How are people in Warmode supposed to complete quests if they're designed for flying mounts? What might make sense is an extra toggle like Warmode that allows people to fly but halves the rewards.

[Kumorii]

TBC had flying and more world PVP than ever before. Immersion happens at a person level, so its impossible to define what feels immersive for millions of other people. If you want the challenge of wanting to fight over all content instead of flying over it, go ahead, its your choice. Do not put a flying mount on your bar.

Seems very simple to disprove. Maybe you just dont agree with it, but its still true.

Dunno, my experience from Vanilla to TBC was a reduction in world PvP as soon as people got flying. Everyone were just flying in the air.
It did make Ambushes easier though since you could just camp in the air and then attack from above out of sight much easier. So for me it reduced the world PvP, it did however increase ganking behaviour.

[unbound]

Thank the 'No flying' crowd. I cant imagine Blizzard ever going back to Flying in from the start. Why you thought this was ever going to be the case is one of the mysteries of the universe. Blizzard didn't trick you, you did that to yourself.

Stop blaming a segment of players for Blizz's decision.

Blizz didn't decide to try to remove flying starting with WoD because of those players. Blizz already decided to reduce costs by trying to eliminate flying in WoD. Without flying, they can reduce the cost to produce zones (i.e. they don't have to account for approaches beyond jumping), and they decided afterwards to leverage the few players that said flying was bad.

Because of the massive blowback to that cost-cutting decision, Blizz determined that the losses would be more than what they'd save in costs. But, because they didn't finish creating the zones enough to account for flying, they needed some other BS excuse to give them time...and thus the pathfinding achievement BS was created to give them time to finish the job.

However, they did figure out that they could still keep staff lower by continuing to delay the completion of the zones until later patches by continuing to insist on pathfinding (or equivalent) achievements.

Remember that Blizz had no issues creating fully flying designed zones at expansion launch for BC, Wrath, Cata, and MoP.

So, yes, Blizz has fooled people like you. They continue to offer less, and they get away with it because people like you defend their poor practices.

[h4rr0d]

You're not getting flying at the start, because that trivialises questing and world pvp.

Questing has been trivial for quite a while, and if by trivializes you mean "you wont have to run across half the zone so you can get up a cliff", I'd like your email address, so I can invoice you for all the time I "untrivially" have to navigate the tiny zones that are made artificially larger with convoluted geography.
And if you actually played the game, you'd know world pvp is beyond dead. Barely anyone has war mode on - in most of my pugs I'm the only one in war mode, and that's as horde. The only time there is something you could call word pvp is when alliance gets quest to kill horde (because almost no aliance players turn on war mode in the first place) and what happens then is organized raid of alliance spawncamping unsuspecting horde in a hub. Hardly something you could call world pvp and also hardly something that would get affected by flying

[Witchblade77]

Why do people care so much about flying? I get that it makes getting around more convenient but the bulk of the gameplay takes place in areas where you can't use flying anyways (raids, dungeons, battlegrounds, arena, torghast) so why does it matter that much?

because you forgot that a lot of us primarily engage in open world content, not instanced one, and GETTING to that content takes ridiculously long time without flying.

[Itori]

Id say just be happy Activision hasn't grabbed blizzard by the balls and told them to charge 25$ for flying unlock.

[Dhrizzle]

Stop blaming a segment of players for Blizz's decision.

Blizz didn't decide to try to remove flying starting with WoD because of those players. Blizz already decided to reduce costs by trying to eliminate flying in WoD. Without flying, they can reduce the cost to produce zones (i.e. they don't have to account for approaches beyond jumping), and they decided afterwards to leverage the few players that said flying was bad.

Because of the massive blowback to that cost-cutting decision, Blizz determined that the losses would be more than what they'd save in costs. But, because they didn't finish creating the zones enough to account for flying, they needed some other BS excuse to give them time...and thus the pathfinding achievement BS was created to give them time to finish the job.

However, they did figure out that they could still keep staff lower by continuing to delay the completion of the zones until later patches by continuing to insist on pathfinding (or equivalent) achievements.

Remember that Blizz had no issues creating fully flying designed zones at expansion launch for BC, Wrath, Cata, and MoP.

So, yes, Blizz has fooled people like you. They continue to offer less, and they get away with it because people like you defend their poor practices.

The original plan was to have something like Pathfinder anyway, and what massive savings would they make that could possibly counter losing sales of flying mounts? Is it really so hard to see that content like the the MoP Islands, Molten Front and Isle of Quel'danas were well received and since experiments with flying stalled back in WotLK it made sense to bring the open-world endgame content in line with the leveling, dungeon, raid,arena and battlegrounds.

BTW the issues with finishing zones for flying were things like invisible walls or mid-air dismounts that should have easier to clean up while building the zone. Keeping them in for later removal would be a false economy.

[h4rr0d]

Id say just be happy Activision hasn't grabbed blizzard by the balls and told them to charge 25$ for flying unlock.

Where can I subscribe to that?

[Lei]

How is it getting more and more true though? There used to be even less outdoor content way back. Before the days of WQs/Callings/Emissaries people only really did dailies until they hit exalted and then it was pretty much raidlogging. Legion/BFA/SL definitely seem to encourage you to spend more time in the wild (WQs, rares, treasures, events etc).

Yes, because chasing paragon chests and hitting exalted 10 times over with a faction is content. Meaning: more content than just hitting exalted once. Because.. logic I guess. Freeing Suesh 100 times is more content than freeing him just 10 times in some way. Right.
Being done with something is not bad. But the outdoor world and its content (quality wise) is getting shittier and shittier, elongated more and more.

[Witchblade77]

The original plan was to have something like Pathfinder anyway, and what massive savings would they make that could possibly counter losing sales of flying mounts? Is it really so hard to see that content like the the MoP Islands, Molten Front and Isle of Quel'danas were well received and since experiments with flying stalled back in WotLK it made sense to bring the open-world endgame content in line with the leveling, dungeon, raid, arena and battlegrounds.

every single one of those that you bring up - are small and compact. every single one of those was tightly packed, easy to navigate AND provided amazingly efficient way to catch up on gear whether for main or alts. they were well received because of THAT. not because they had no flight.

[Dhrizzle]

every single one of those that you bring up - are small and compact. every single one of those was tightly packed, easy to navigate AND provided amazingly efficient way to catch up on gear whether for main or alts. they were well received because of THAT. not because they had no flight.

All if them were also a lot more fun than the dailies in WotLK, Cata and MoP where you were just dropping on whatever mob you needed then hopping away again. For all people praise WotLK the world content for endgame was probably the worst in the game so far especially when compared to the Isle of QD.

[Eosia]

Once again flying will only be unlocked for already outdated content while being unavailable in the Maw and Korthia. This is Argus all over again. Next expansion MUST have flying in from the START and it must be usable EVERYWHERE.

You're shocked that, over half a decade later, Blizzard is still making you engage in content to earn flying when they wanted to eliminate it themselves? No one was "tricked". And, just like Argus, only idiots thought that flight would be enabled at some point. Besides Argus being the Legion's Homeworld and the "unofficial Hell" of Warcraft, it was never designed with flight in mind. It uses the same 2D tricks that Vanilla/Classic/BC used. The Maw, which is the literal Hell of Warcraft, probably uses a lot of the same tricks. And Korthia isn't a new zone, it is a sub-zone of the Maw, so you shouldn't be surprised there either.

The Next Expansion WILL have Pathfinder unless they decide to go back to the BC/Wrath design model where zones had content that required flight in order to reach such as Storm Peaks and Icecrown. But given what happened with flight in Cataclysm, that is probably not going to happen. So you either learn to accept it oyur visit here and cancel. Those are your two options.

[vashe9]

Once again flying will only be unlocked for already outdated content while being unavailable in the Maw and Korthia. This is Argus all over again. Next expansion MUST have flying in from the START and it must be usable EVERYWHERE.

This is exactly how it should be. I dont see the problem in current flying unlocking

[Zantera]

Yes, because chasing paragon chests and hitting exalted 10 times over with a faction is content. Meaning: more content than just hitting exalted once. Because.. logic I guess. Freeing Suesh 100 times is more content than freeing him just 10 times in some way. Right.
Being done with something is not bad. But the outdoor world and its content (quality wise) is getting shittier and shittier, elongated more and more.

I'm not saying it's amazing content but it's content that did not exist before and the game in its earlier incarnations (especially TBC/Wotlk around that time) had very limited outdoor content and that was a reason most people spent their time afk in Shattrah/Dalaran/Org/SW waiting for their raid or dungeon or whatever.

For me the outdoor content has always been the garlic bread you have on the side to your actual dinner (raids/dungeons/pvp) so again I don't find the flying vs no flying to be that big of a deal. Yeah it makes things more convenient and faster to get to, it also sadly excludes you from using most of the best looking mounts in the game (the ground ones) in favor of something with wings. Personally I think it's fair to experience half the expansion from the ground and then giving us flying halfway through when we've seen everything anyways. They seem to be easing up on that even more in SL by giving it to us in the .1 patch already.

[Lei]

All if them were also a lot more fun than the dailies in WotLK, Cata and MoP where you were just dropping on whatever mob you needed then hopping away again. For all people praise WotLK the world content for endgame was probably the worst in the game so far especially when compared to the Isle of QD.

WQs. Which iteration? Legion, BfA and Shadowlands wqs are not comparable.
Legion Wqs: Go here, kill this one dude, get more rep if it was beefier, get more reward if it was beefier, use whistle, fly wherever you want.
BfA: Nonononono, only a very small amount of "kill this one dude" WQs, more tedious ones, overall less selection of WQs than in legion. Uniform rep per wq, but still got the whistle.
Shadowlands: Yeah fuck everything, tedious WQs, no whistle, minimum amount of WQ selection per zone. Least amount of flight points to make space for the travel network, maze-y zones. And you gonna fucking walk in the maw. Portals that you can unlock are mostly useless.

It's the same with m+-es Legion was the honeymoon era when they introduced these and wanted players to interface it into their daily life. Then they are taking back from it more and more.
I could accept that Legion wqs were somehow better than old fashioned dailies, which I stronlgly disagree with, but BfA and Shadowlands WQs being better than anything from before WoD? Give me a break.

[chaoticcrono]

I stopped playing a long time ago cuz blizzturd keeps making the game worse and the community adds insult to injury.

[Seranthor]

Stop blaming a segment of players for Blizz's decision.

Blizz didn't decide to try to remove flying starting with WoD because of those players. Blizz already decided to reduce costs by trying to eliminate flying in WoD. Without flying, they can reduce the cost to produce zones (i.e. they don't have to account for approaches beyond jumping), and they decided afterwards to leverage the few players that said flying was bad.

Because of the massive blowback to that cost-cutting decision, Blizz determined that the losses would be more than what they'd save in costs. But, because they didn't finish creating the zones enough to account for flying, they needed some other BS excuse to give them time...and thus the pathfinding achievement BS was created to give them time to finish the job.

However, they did figure out that they could still keep staff lower by continuing to delay the completion of the zones until later patches by continuing to insist on pathfinding (or equivalent) achievements.

Remember that Blizz had no issues creating fully flying designed zones at expansion launch for BC, Wrath, Cata, and MoP.

So, yes, Blizz has fooled people like you. They continue to offer less, and they get away with it because people like you defend their poor practices.

Fooled in what way? I stopped giving them my money in 2017, I removed their software from my computer in 2017. You are apparently so clued into what they are doing and dont see it as a deal breaker that you continue to give them your currency and your time. Sir, The one being 'fooled' is YOU. Blizzard loves players like you, so hooked you cant walk away even if you want to.

[blankfaced]

Once again flying will only be unlocked for already outdated content while being unavailable in the Maw and Korthia. This is Argus all over again. Next expansion MUST have flying in from the START and it must be usable EVERYWHERE.

I thought there was going to be a link to a blue saying flying wasn't coming until after 9.1 in your post. Just assume they'll never allow you to fly in the most current of content. They even make us go to distant islands so they can be like "Ohhh nooo, the harsh winds of this island are too dangerous to fly in!"

[MasterOfNone]

Dunno, my experience from Vanilla to TBC was a reduction in world PvP as soon as people got flying. Everyone were just flying in the air.
It did make Ambushes easier though since you could just camp in the air and then attack from above out of sight much easier. So for me it reduced the world PvP, it did however increase ganking behaviour.

the battles in hellfire were EPIC. there has never been open world pvp like that since that time. every day i logged in, it was a fight with dozens of people fighting for control.

- - - Updated - - -

Fooled in what way? I stopped giving them my money in 2017, I removed their software from my computer in 2017. You are apparently so clued into what they are doing and dont see it as a deal breaker that you continue to give them your currency and your time. Sir, The one being 'fooled' is YOU. Blizzard loves players like you, so hooked you cant walk away even if you want to.

why are you even commenting then if you have had nothing to do with the game for 4 years? im not saying you arent entitled to your opinion, but it seems like YOU cant walk away if you are in here arguing about a game you havent played in almost half a decade.....

- - - Updated - - -

WQs. Which iteration? Legion, BfA and Shadowlands wqs are not comparable.
Legion Wqs: Go here, kill this one dude, get more rep if it was beefier, get more reward if it was beefier, use whistle, fly wherever you want.
BfA: Nonononono, only a very small amount of "kill this one dude" WQs, more tedious ones, overall less selection of WQs than in legion. Uniform rep per wq, but still got the whistle.
Shadowlands: Yeah fuck everything, tedious WQs, no whistle, minimum amount of WQ selection per zone. Least amount of flight points to make space for the travel network, maze-y zones. And you gonna fucking walk in the maw. Portals that you can unlock are mostly useless.

It's the same with m+-es Legion was the honeymoon era when they introduced these and wanted players to interface it into their daily life. Then they are taking back from it more and more.
I could accept that Legion wqs were somehow better than old fashioned dailies, which I stronlgly disagree with, but BfA and Shadowlands WQs being better than anything from before WoD? Give me a break.

yeah i agree. SL WQs are terrible. they take a lot more time. Emissary quests in BFA were acceptable from anywhere. now you HAVE to go to covenant to start them, and then do to the area to do them. Its all travel time. Its not immersion. Its stupid.

[Seranthor]

why are you even commenting then if you have had nothing to do with the game for 4 years? im not saying you arent entitled to your opinion, but it seems like YOU cant walk away if you are in here arguing about a game you havent played in almost half a decade.....

Hoping Blizzard changes course on some of the things they've done that drove me away. Whether I like it or not MMOC does have that pulse to provide relevant information even if one had to dig thru the hysteria of some of these threads to get to it.

WQ travel time was one of the things that drove me out, I see that you at least partially share that concern.