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  1. #41
    Arthas was essentially Darth Vader. Both were willing to do questionable things for the sake of what they perceived as the greater good but neither was outright evil. Both had their original personalities erased/twisted when they fell. What I'm trying to say is, post-Frostmourne Arthas was no longer the Arthas we'd known. If his soul was restored to its original non-corrupted state, it wouldn't be right to judge him for all the atrocities he had done as a Death Knight/Lich King.

  2. #42
    The Lightbringer Minikin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pebrocks The Warlock View Post
    Why do you believe all that will be retcon? I see nothing going on now or the future that could possibly do that.
    I feel like they might use anduins state in the next patch to kind of grey out what Arthas did after he laid hands on the sword. Possibly using the "Whomsoever takes up this blade shall wield power eternal. Just as the blade rends flesh, so must power scar the spirit."

    Just speculation though, who knows which way this is going.
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  3. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by Minikin View Post
    I feel like they might use anduins state in the next patch to kind of grey out what Arthas did after he laid hands on the sword. Possibly using the "Whomsoever takes up this blade shall wield power eternal. Just as the blade rends flesh, so must power scar the spirit."

    Just speculation though, who knows which way this is going.
    Why would that be a retcon? Arthas was corrupted the moment he took the blade. His last sane words were that he was ready to pay any price to save his people. After that he only heard froustmourne
    Last edited by Tarba; 2021-02-21 at 06:12 PM.

  4. #44
    Legendary! Dellis0991's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KSM899 View Post
    Yes he did bad things, but if it wasn't for Frostmourn he wouldn't have done the things that everyone thinks are unforgivable.

    As for stratholme, what was he supposed to do?

    When I was reading the novel "Rise of the Lich King", I didn't feel that he was full in control after taking the blade, he was changed, the blade changed him to the core, so regardless if he had free will or not, he wasn't the same.

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    He kinda was.

    In wrath we were told by Uthur ghost that the only thing keeping the Lich King from kill all life is the renaming part of Arthas, so in a way Arthas had no control.

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    Oh yeah .. I did, that's why I am asking this question

    I kinda wish they stuck with the old story, it would have ended his story with his death, but the new story opens the door for more speculations.

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    In the original story he was under the influence of Ner'zhul as a death knight, then when he merged with him, Arthas as an independent character ceased to exist.

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    This +1 ...

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    Nah .. he did not.

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    Anduin knew everything before being turned, Arthas thought the blade will grant him power to save his people.
    Yes he did, he was in full control of himself all the way till he got ahold of frostmourne. Anduin is walking a meat puppet.

  5. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by Pebrocks The Warlock View Post
    Anduin is being directly mind-controlled. Arthas burned a city, killed allied mercenaries, doomed his soldiers to die, and this is before touching Frostmourne. Afterwards, he was never controlled, only lead. His emoted were sapped but he still had free will. He chose to kill his father and destroy his kingdom.
    The whole stratholme thing was absolutely the right thing to do though
    But yeah,everything after that is fucked up

  6. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by ONCHEhap View Post
    The whole stratholme thing was absolutely the right thing to do though
    But yeah,everything after that is fucked up
    He gave zero chance to every civilian, didn't try to quarantine them. Even if they had turned, if they were captured instead of killed then eventually the Lich King's hold over them would break and they would get their sanity back. That's what the Forsaken are.
    Goodbye-Forever-MMO-Champ
    Quote Originally Posted by HighlordJohnstone View Post
    Alleria's whispers start climaxing

  7. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by Pebrocks The Warlock View Post
    He gave zero chance to every civilian, didn't try to quarantine them. Even if they had turned, if they were captured instead of killed then eventually the Lich King's hold over them would break and they would get their sanity back. That's what the Forsaken are.
    In both WC3 and WoW the civilians started to turn the moment Arthas entered Stratholme and Mal'Ganis popping up to taunt him, there was no chance for him to do any quarantine and had to make a quick decision to both give them a swift and merciful death and to avoid giving mal'Ganis an even bigger army. There is even an event where if you fail the mission in WC3, your base gets overwhelmed with the zombies with no way to survive. I doubt that the kingdom at the time was interested in keeping around zombies and have a repeat where they could possibly break out like the orcs did.

  8. #48
    Light comes from darkness shise's Avatar
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    He called a purge in Stratholm because that was the only rational thing to do. In fact, as soon as he stepped into the city, all citizens were already becoming scourge. What else was there to do but to kill everyone and everything between those walls?

    Uther and Jaina both failed him, and costed Azeroth all that happened through a great part of WotLK. All because they acted irrational and emotional when the situation was dire. Would they have stood next to Arthas, maybe Mal´ganish would not have lured him directly into Ner´Zhul hands

    Arthas was willing to sacrifice himself to stop the events. Little did he know what was really coming with his sacrifice...

  9. #49
    The Unstoppable Force Lorgar Aurelian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pebrocks The Warlock View Post
    He gave zero chance to every civilian, didn't try to quarantine them. Even if they had turned, if they were captured instead of killed then eventually the Lich King's hold over them would break and they would get their sanity back. That's what the Forsaken are.
    The undead from before he got frostmourne were almost all mindless it’s the whole reason there still wondering around starthholme even after the forsaken all got there minds back.

  10. #50
    The Lightbringer Minikin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tarba View Post
    Why would that be a retcon? Arthas was corrupted the moment he took the blade. His last sane words were that he was ready to pay any price to save his people. After that he only heard froustmourne
    Example: Arthas raising Sylvanas and torturing her

    He could have just killed her and moved along. Like Anduin did with Kysteria. He got what he wanted and left.

    But instead he went out of his way to bring her back as a banshee none the less. His reasoning was that she was a pain in the ass.

    That specific part is the one they MIGHT (speculation) change or get rid of in the sense of, he wasn't in control vs he was in control. Which is the question in this topic and what Anduin will be faced with too. Does he get punished for what he did? Was he in control? Was Arthas?

    We don't know yet because after WC3 we are finally getting into the meat of how a mourneblade works. Is shalamourne even the same as frostmourne? Are there differences? Who knows.
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  11. #51
    Memebr when he burnt his own ships to strand his people on a frozen hellscape so he could go hunt a demon? Effectively dooming all his people to death?
    Last edited by Newname1234567890; 2021-02-21 at 08:13 PM.

  12. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by shise View Post
    He called a purge in Stratholm because that was the only rational thing to do. In fact, as soon as he stepped into the city, all citizens were already becoming scourge. What else was there to do but to kill everyone and everything between those walls?
    Well, for starters he could have at least tried to explain the situation to his superior instead of simply demanding his cooperation in what would at that time seem like total lunacy.

    Quote Originally Posted by shise View Post
    Uther and Jaina both failed him
    No. Arthas failed them by his refusal to explain the situation. Uther had no reason to follow Arthas' plan. Arthas acted irrational and emotional in that scene.

  13. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by Minikin View Post
    Example: Arthas raising Sylvanas and torturing her

    He could have just killed her and moved along. Like Anduin did with Kysteria. He got what he wanted and left.

    But instead he went out of his way to bring her back as a banshee none the less. His reasoning was that she was a pain in the ass.

    That specific part is the one they MIGHT (speculation) change or get rid of in the sense of, he wasn't in control vs he was in control. Which is the question in this topic and what Anduin will be faced with too. Does he get punished for what he did? Was he in control? Was Arthas?

    We don't know yet because after WC3 we are finally getting into the meat of how a mourneblade works. Is shalamourne even the same as frostmourne? Are there differences? Who knows.
    Went out of his way? He was waging a war and was getting new soldiers in his army by resurecting the people he killed. Sylvanas has been a pain in the ass but was also a strong valuable asset. He made her banshee like he made many others. And she was one of his main general later on.
    He was still doing his job by doing that.
    People turned have still some kind of personnality bit is completely twisted and corrupted.
    Last edited by Tarba; 2021-02-21 at 09:32 PM.

  14. #54
    The Lightbringer Minikin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tarba View Post
    Went out of his way? He was waging a war and was getting new soldiers in his army by resurecting the people he killed. Sylvanas has been a pain in the ass but was also a strong valuable asset. He made her banshee like he made many others. And she was one of his main general later on.
    He was still doing his job by doing that.
    Iam not talking about that and you are missing a few points here.

    I am saying that until now in the debate for "was Arthas evil", the answer was a resounding yes. Because on the info we HAD he did everything wrong. There was no concrete evidence if the sword or the helm or both controlled him.

    Now however we have something. We can see anduin is under control, because he breaks out of it for a split second to realize what he's done.

    Thus we now have some evidence that Arthas MIGHT be under control too. That maybe he wasn't totally to blame for his actions. HOWEVER there are two problems with that if they go that route.

    Foremost. Yes he did go out of his way to raise Sylvanas. This is not speculation. We have proof of this from when Sylvanas asks for a clean death and instead he says that no such merch awaits her and he brings her back as a banshee. This was not motivated by strategy, it was motivated by spite. We have concrete proof of this.

    If they do go the route of mind control then that part will be affected.
    Blood Elves were based on a STRONG request from a poll of Asian players where many remarked on the Horde side that they and their girlfriends wanted a non-creepy femme race to play (Source)

  15. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by huth View Post
    Well, for starters he could have at least tried to explain the situation to his superior instead of simply demanding his cooperation in what would at that time seem like total lunacy.



    No. Arthas failed them by his refusal to explain the situation. Uther had no reason to follow Arthas' plan. Arthas acted irrational and emotional in that scene.
    As prince of Lordaeron, Arthas had the higher authority there, that why Uther could do nothing to stop Arthas, again, as Shise explained, the moment he enters the city they start to turn, there was nothing to explain, nothing to do, he had 2 options, 1-Retread and give Malganis a bigger army or 2-Do what he did, as for Uther/Jaina, they did abandon Arthas, if they would have stayed and seen the situation with their on eyes instead or running like cowards they would had reached the same conclusions

  16. #56
    The Lightbringer Nathreim's Avatar
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    Arthas murdered a bunch of his own men before even touching Frostmourne or becoming undead.

  17. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by McNeil View Post
    In both WC3 and WoW the civilians started to turn the moment Arthas entered Stratholme and Mal'Ganis popping up to taunt him, there was no chance for him to do any quarantine and had to make a quick decision to both give them a swift and merciful death and to avoid giving mal'Ganis an even bigger army. There is even an event where if you fail the mission in WC3, your base gets overwhelmed with the zombies with no way to survive. I doubt that the kingdom at the time was interested in keeping around zombies and have a repeat where they could possibly break out like the orcs did.
    There was every chance. Anyone alive is shoved into a 1 person room and locked. If they turn smash head in, if not get them out.

  18. #58
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    Except he did most of this shit before ever picking up the sword.

  19. #59
    Quote Originally Posted by kaelix1 View Post
    As prince of Lordaeron, Arthas had the higher authority there
    No, he doesn't. Uther even states that outright. Uther is Arthas' superior, not the other way around.

    He also had plenty of opportunity to explain why his actions were necessary - but he'd rather waste that time on trying to order his friends and superior around.
    Last edited by huth; 2021-02-21 at 10:17 PM.

  20. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by kaelix1 View Post
    As prince of Lordaeron, Arthas had the higher authority there, that why Uther could do nothing to stop Arthas, again, as Shise explained, the moment he enters the city they start to turn, there was nothing to explain, nothing to do, he had 2 options, 1-Retread and give Malganis a bigger army or 2-Do what he did, as for Uther/Jaina, they did abandon Arthas, if they would have stayed and seen the situation with their on eyes instead or running like cowards they would had reached the same conclusions
    So wait, refusing to help him is cowardice but murdering his own people because he was too much of a pussy to face the undead is the height of bravery?

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