Does Blizzard even have a design philosophy?

[SirBeef]

• Blizzard reinvents the wheel because otherwise the game grows stale.
• They can't just expand upon content and mechanics that players enjoy because otherwise the game grows stale, and if they don't dare to be ingenious we don't get fun stuff like Mythic+.
• Most didn't believe Valor Point was a great system. It was negatively criticized into oblivion. The version we are getting now is just similar to the old VP.
• The process of "just tuning and trying to perfect good system and mechanics" are literally what they always do, you just are part of the playerbase that don't like the current ideas.

You are only remembering the "unpopular" features without counting the popular ones - without innovation and audacity we wouldn't have Arenas, Pet Battles and Transmog.

The game is not unfriendly to alts, you just want two mains.

We all know these same people would be bitching about WoW being the same old game expansion after expansion if they kept things too similar.

[exsanguinate]

yes you're right

First time in history of mmo-champ I witness a moment where the first post of a topic is not disagreeing with OP

[JemiS]

We all know these same people would be bitching about WoW being the same old game expansion after expansion if they kept things too similar.

The success of Classic kinda disagrees with this sentiment.

[Forteofgray]

I recall when a new ability and talent row per expansion got a bit much... I understand the need to have power resets but as time has gone on they became addicted to lengthy tedious grinds.

If sl launched with just renowned I think it would of been alright but between grinding torghast and making most of the bis relics only upgradeable from the maw just kills alts for me.

we could just have customizations for current spells that are cosmetic

[Zorachus]

Good thread, last three expansions and we get three totally new and different systems.

I actually loved Legion, my fav of the recent 3 or 4 expansion releases.

They create Class Halls, Artifact gear and weapons, Netherlight Crucible, Mage Tower etc...then blow it all up and throw it out.

Next expansion we get Azerite gear and Essences and corruption garbage. And reworked talents, global cool downs and revised rotations.

Then they nuke that stuff, start all over again, but now with Covenant gear and soulbinds and legendary crafted items and Anima grind.

Isn't that ridiculous? Why create totally brand new systems the last three expansions, and not keep anything from the other two? Seriously why do that? Seems like wasted development time that could be better spent.

They should stick with a good system, keep it around for two or three expansions with just slight revisions and minor tweaks. But keep the overall feel and system for several years let people get comfortable and used to it.

[JemiS]

we could just have customizations for current spells that are cosmetic

That would cost us a raid tier.

Other things that would cost us a raid tier: archeology in SL, a working glyph system (remember when we had one of those?), customization options for allied races, quivers, dance studio....

[Orwell7]

Okay, let me say it again:

NO ONE but Blizzard said that classes in MoP got too homogenous and that is a problem. No one, but Blizzard.
NO ONE but Blizzard said that Valor/Justice Points are garbage. No one, but Blizzard.
NO ONE but Blizzard said that separate PvP gear is a problem, be it resilience or increased ilvl in pvp. No one, but Blizzard.
NO ONE but Blizzard said that players getting BiS gear makes them unsub (they just level their hundredth alts and gear them up too). No one, but Blizzard.

Well, tbh, nobody gives a flying f--- if we believe what Blizzard says or not. They are too big to fail.
WoW's unique combat system, eye-catching "understandable" grapchics/art is what carries this game. They could erase all gear or make them just transmogs, delete all classes and still MILLIONS would play this game. Just because the looks and familiarity.

[Amariw]

Okay, let me say it again:

NO ONE but Blizzard said that classes in MoP got too homogenous and that is a problem. No one, but Blizzard.
NO ONE but Blizzard said that Valor/Justice Points are garbage. No one, but Blizzard.
NO ONE but Blizzard said that separate PvP gear is a problem, be it resilience or increased ilvl in pvp. No one, but Blizzard.
NO ONE but Blizzard said that players getting BiS gear makes them unsub (they just level their hundredth alts and gear them up too). No one, but Blizzard.

Well, tbh, nobody gives a flying f--- if we believe what Blizzard says or not. They are too big to fail.
WoW's unique combat system, eye-catching "understandable" grapchics/art is what carries this game. They could erase all gear or make them just transmogs, delete all classes and still MILLIONS would play this game. Just because the looks and familiarity.

Agreed with everything and would even add that MoP had what were possibly the game's most innovative and creative speccs design. MoP demonology... The nerdchills.

[Traveler Voltin]

Legion was the best secondary system for abilities/passives.

everything now is just a mess and they cant balance anything right.

[A Chozo]

Covenants (and artifact weapons, and the artifact necklace) are very new in that they are systems that expand your player power in a completely temporary fashion. They completely replace long-term character growth and development (talents, talent trees, glyphs) with things that are seasonal/transient, which was the whole point of my post.

Pet Battles are almost completely stagnant and in maintenance mode. A few tweaks here and there, but no truly meta-shaping new pets, no new pet classes, no increases in pet levels or changes to team structures. We have copy + paste pets with new skins, the same type of pet-battle world quests we've always had. Given how much you seem to think things need to "change and grow" to "keep people interested", I'm surprised you're defending pet battles when they're exactly what you don't want the rest of the game to be.

Professions have always been shitty, but this is the first expansion we've seen a profession (archeology) be completely left out of any updates for an expansion. No new additions to the skill at all.

Oh please. Covenants and Artifact weapons are just quest hubs that add a talent roll and/or a new skill to your bar. Being temporary doesn't make it "very new".

Pet Battles are not completely stagnant, nor in maintenance mode, otherwise you wouldn't have the Pet Battle dungeons nor each new expansion would bring new battle pets. Just because you don't use the system doesn't mean it is being update.

Agree with archeology tho. It's a first. But alas, the playerbase did demonstrate that they don't have interest in such gameplay. It would be like Blizzard investing into Island Expeditions after all the vocal feedback.

- - - Updated - - -

NO ONE but Blizzard said that classes in MoP got too homogenous and that is a problem. No one, but Blizzard.
NO ONE but Blizzard said that Valor/Justice Points are garbage. No one, but Blizzard.
NO ONE but Blizzard said that separate PvP gear is a problem, be it resilience or increased ilvl in pvp. No one, but Blizzard.
NO ONE but Blizzard said that players getting BiS gear makes them unsub (they just level their hundredth alts and gear them up too). No one, but Blizzard.

Bullshit.

People complained like hell about how every class feels the same. Hell they do it even now, saying that it's all builder-spenders.
Resilience was criticized like hell, hence why they joined the reward systems.
"Blizzard there's nothing to do reeeee" said Billybob after getting his BiS gear. "It's all unrewarding". So they do the obvious thing and stretch that treadmill.

[Selah]

So, just my opinion here but I think the focus has been far too much on player power growing. Instead I think we should just see classes expand to include a wider set of character fantasies. Lets ditch soulbinds, conduits, azerite, artifacts, and all of that. Instead, lets give DKs the ability to wear cloth and use a staff (necromancer or blood mage anyone?), lets give sword and board abilities and plate armor to warlocks (void knight), let warriors actually use bows, and so on. Lets remove restrictions on class and armor types and instead give artifact weapon style trees to these classes and allow them to be more than they were and support it. GW2 and their weapon trees are a fantastic example of what I'm talking about.

Don't want to do that? Fine, lets give classes the ability to access other core parts of other classes. Shaman able to pick up the combat skills of Monks? Mages wearing plate armor because of warriors? Rogues picking up blood plagues from DKs? Hunters gaining proper stealth abilities from rogues?

Let player power grow from better ilvl armor that we get in the game. That's all it needs to be. We don't need to soulbind to the Jailer to 1v1 Saurfang, that's nothing more than a waste of time and we'll have to lose it come the next expansion. We don't need titan blood in the veins of our armor, we don't need to power up the ashbringer.

I'm all for innovation and trying new things, that's how you get things like M+, but it's also how you get things like azerite armor when you want to make player power grow outside of armor. Truthfully, there's an argument to be made for revamping some of the armor slots to be more that just stat sticks. Things like rings, necklaces, and trinkets serve as nothing more than boring pieces of armor you're forced to collect in service to player power exclusively. What if rings came in sets of two and instead allowed us to minorly buff aspects of our classes? Like a ring set of two that gives us them the ability to extend their evasion by 10 seconds? Maybe a paladin ring set for ret that allows them to cast a version of beacon that gives X amount of healing to your beacon based on healing you received. Maybe a trinket that gives Shamans the ability to summon a little elemental to fallow you around, or a trinket that allows warrior shouts to cause players around them to shout as well.

What kills me is Blizz has such a good setup for really move player progression in a meaningful way that isn't just "you more strong" and allow us to flesh out *how* our characters play more. Instead, they choose to pursue more power driven options.

[Relapses]

Given that I think M+ was a horrible addition to the game, I'm obviously just not Blizzard's target audience anymore. I've accepted that. There's not even a way to give feedback when you cancel a sub anymore, which indicates how much they care about knowing why people are leaving. The focus on speed is not healthy for an MMORPG, in my opinion.

This is objectively false. The best way to give them feedback that you don't like the game anymore is to unsub. The thing is, for every person like you who unsubs, there are others who stay subbed specifically because of this feature (or features) that no longer appeals to you. Do you think it's fair to the people who do pay for a sub to have to be beholden to somebody who already voted with their wallet?

The alternative is to imply that there are an unknown number of people who are just too addicted to WoW to unsub even though they hate the game. And if you read most of the replies in this thread, you'd also be convinced that most of these people also post on forums. Thankfully, this forum is a microcosm of a microcosm (people who post on forums are already a small percentage; people who intentionally seek out fan-run forums are a minority of this minority) and even though you'd get that impression reading some of the *ahem* passionate criticism you see around here, the reality is likely far more positive (since happy players rarely feel the need to post on forums).

[Gasparde]

I'm pretty sure they have 1. And 4 others. All trying to compete with each other at the same time.

[Low Hanging Fruit]

Personally as much as people are going to hate this I am almost willing to give SL a mulligan on because of what went on during the world during its last year. I do see something that might have been great. I do see where they were going with it. But I think designing something like WoW from home and on zoom meetings just isn't an easy then. Even more so when it wasn't intended to be so. The patch cycle is going to suffer heavily from it as well. Systems will suffer.

Now that doesn't mean Blizzard would have made a perfect game without how things went down. Or that they weren't already on a road to make products like this on a pretty regular basis. But I cannot say they have "no idea what they are doing" or "no plan" or "do they even have a design philosophy" because I think they do have all those things. The problem is just that none of it is coming together fast enough or coordinated enough because of working from home though a lot of it.

[Vexuz]

No they don't have a design philosophy and why don't you try another game if you hate what WoW is so much?

I hear there are games like GW2 or FFXIV or SWToR around that ppl have good things to say about and soon you can try Ashes of Creation and Amazon's New World.

I really don't get it. If you hate a game or the decisions by the company behind it so much...why not find something else?

is it really in the end just a "sunk cost" fallacy?

I stick around with WoW because it has great core combat, i still haven't played an MMO were the combat feels as snappy and fluid as WoW and also because of all the time i have invested throughout the years with all the mounts and cosmetics i've farmed, and I think this goes for a lot of 99% of players. Like someone said prev, this game could be complete garbage and millions would still play at this point due to time invested and familiarity of the game, learning a new MMO takes lots of time.

With that being said, i don't play this game nearly as much as back in the days, I try every expansion due to nostalgia with WoW, then usually unsub after 2 months, I haven't subbed an entire expansion since MoP now. But it somewhat makes me sad cause at it's core, WoW is still the best MMO, but so much wasted potential and dev time throughout the years on a bunch of crap and every expansion they come up with new crap.

[Seranthor]

This is objectively false. The best way to give them feedback that you don't like the game anymore is to unsub. The thing is, for every person like you who unsubs, there are others who stay subbed specifically because of this feature (or features) that no longer appeals to you. Do you think it's fair to the people who do pay for a sub to have to be beholden to somebody who already voted with their wallet?

The alternative is to imply that there are an unknown number of people who are just too addicted to WoW to unsub even though they hate the game. And if you read most of the replies in this thread, you'd also be convinced that most of these people also post on forums. Thankfully, this forum is a microcosm of a microcosm (people who post on forums are already a small percentage; people who intentionally seek out fan-run forums are a minority of this minority) and even though you'd get that impression reading some of the *ahem* passionate criticism you see around here, the reality is likely far more positive (since happy players rarely feel the need to post on forums).

I can find nothing in this to disagree with.

[Alraml]

Being somebody who plays both WoW and FFXIV it’s remarkable the difference in player base.

XIV fans are mostly hyper-positive about the game and ignore its obvious flaws and developer issues

Whereas WoW fans seem to really aggressively hate on the game and Blizzard themselves to the point that I wonder why people still play.

My answer though is the same as somebody earlier, they re-invent the wheel to keep things new and prevent it from getting stale.

I love XIV but that is an example of an mmo that hasn’t really changed its formula since Heavensward and I can tell you it starts to feel stale to the point that I know the layout of the patch content before the expansion even launches

[Pheraz]

Why does Blizzard try to reinvent the wheel every single expansion? Why can't they just expand upon content and mechanics that players enjoy instead of pooring resources trying to come up with new stuff that just ends up being scrapped next expansion cause they suck? Valor point system was introduced ages ago, and most believe it was a great system, why scrap it just to have to come back severel expansions later? Same with PvP vendors. Why can't they just tune and try to perfect good systems and mechanics?

Imagine all the time and money that went into Ashran, Warfront, Island Expeditions, Torhgast and whatnot. Instead they could have expanded upon content like mage towers from Legion, Challenge mode, creating more dungones and rewarding cosmetics. Instead they rush out Torghast, now they try "fix" it, still having no clue wtf they want to do with it, and by the time it might be good in 9.3 it ends up being scrapped next expansion.

Also why is this game so fucking unfriendly to alts? Everything except the lvling just screams "we hate alts".

As a casual player and/or mostly without guild player, I really enjoyed warfronts and islands expeditions.
Also I think Torghast is the best feature of SL. And I really do not enjoy SL so much.

[qwikz]

• Blizzard reinvents the wheel because otherwise the game grows stale.
• They can't just expand upon content and mechanics that players enjoy because otherwise the game grows stale, and if they don't dare to be ingenious we don't get fun stuff like Mythic+.
  
• Most didn't believe Valor Point was a great system. It was negatively criticized into oblivion. The version we are getting now is just similar to the old VP.
• The process of "just tuning and trying to perfect good system and mechanics" are literally what they always do, you just are part of the playerbase that don't like the current ideas.

You are only remembering the "unpopular" features without counting the popular ones - without innovation and audacity we wouldn't have Arenas, Pet Battles and Transmog.

The game is not unfriendly to alts, you just want two mains.

Bold of you to claim this with no proof yet in the same breath tell another user that his experience is not the whole playerbase. You're talking out of your ass as much as anyone else.

[Cosmic Janitor]

They have one, but they constantly change it when new people come into power because they think the lessons of the previous team don't apply to them. That is why Blizzard keeps repeating the same mistakes they've already told us about 10 years ago. Not all of it might be on the new guys though, some things may just me mandated, we don't know enough about their internal workflow to judge that, but it seems plausible enough.

Coming up with new things is a good idea as well. Just keeping the old stuff and doing it over and over gets stale extremely quickly. The problem simply arises from the fact that Blizzard styalized coming up with new stuff into a bad form of staleness, because every new system they make is not made with the intention of staying, it's made with the expressed intent of being thrown away after the expansion. So instead of innovating for progress, Blizzard has managed to make innovation itself stale.