Theory: "Zovaal, the Jailer" is an Imposter

[Nagawithlegs]

I assume Torghast is a Zovaal thing not something that was always there.

I believe a dev confirmed that the lore of the Maw was that it originally was only Torghast, and Zovaal used chains to drag the rest of the landmass in. Hence why he also drags Korthia into the Maw.

The landmass within the Maw consists of pieces of land that have been ripped from a realm that was destroyed upon entering the Maw's atmosphere and whose pieces have become burned and desiccated. The Jailer pieced these together into a single landmass by throwing out chains in every direction within the Maw from Torghast and pulling them inwards.[13] The Maw was sealed and made inescapable with the magic of the Heart of the Forest, with the goal of banishing The Jailer forever.[14]

https://wow.gamepedia.com/Maw

[rowaasr13]

Heh... that's an interesting idea. Especially when you remember Ve'nari warning you not to trust anyone imprisoned in that tower (not that you should trust her either).

It was mentioned in the 9.1 trailer he was the archons brother when they were interacting. Was it a figure of speech or literal, I don't know.

It was mentioned far earlier - he was called "like brother to us" in leveling campaign. But turn on the subtitles and look closely at the quote in the trailer: https://youtu.be/cbkQEgf_TAs?t=134. He never says he's that brother.

Come to think of it... Who puts a prisoner room directly beside prison gates? That's a place for a jail guard - i.e. Jailer.

There's one more thing that bothers me about the Jailer we know. He never says directly "I'll destroy/conquer you/your world" he always refers to actor of such deed in 3rd person "Death will destroy everything you know", "Death will claim soul of your world", etc. Is Blizzard playing some "he wasn't threatening, he was warning you, stupid heroes!" game? So in the end they will yet again play same twist they played in previous expansions "hahaha, you've collected McGuffin for real Big Bad through entire expansions" and tell us that "bald Jailer" is some noble guy fighting against real Jailer and we've just restored a complete set of domination memories to real Jailer.

This still would be uber-stupid storytelling because a) they did that already many times, b) PoorCommunicationKills/CannotSpitItOut trope is stupid and false drama as it is, and even more so when used on a cosmic scale.

[Nagawithlegs]

This still would be uber-stupid storytelling because a) they did that already many times, b) PoorCommunicationKills/CannotSpitItOut trope is stupid and false drama as it is, and even more so when used on a cosmic scale.

If the Runecarver is the real Jailer, I don't think he's the real villain. I think whatever "Zovaal" is is some kind of aspect of Death, hence why he always uses third person.

He wouldn't have removed Runecarver's memories if he worked for him.

[cparle87]

And we're feeding him soul ash every week. Like if I was going to go all 'subverting expectations' this is what I'd do.

They've done this to us before. Remember Teron Gorefiend in BC and Drakuru in Wrath?

[huth]

But why the Primus? What is his relevance to crafting leggos? Is it just because he's missing?

The Primus is specificially stated to be a capable runesmith and in particular, Heirmir's teacher, during the Maldraxxus part of the leveling campaign.

[rowaasr13]

They've done this to us before. Remember Teron Gorefiend in BC and Drakuru in Wrath?

Uh, they've done it just a tier ago. Remember bringing HoA to the palace and thus releasing N'Zoth?

[Aeluron Lightsong]

I believe a dev confirmed that the lore of the Maw was that it originally was only Torghast, and Zovaal used chains to drag the rest of the landmass in. Hence why he also drags Korthia into the Maw.

Ahhh ok, good to know. The Runecarver room suspiciously looks like the place where the Jailer is shown in that CGI esque trailer of Shadowlands. Granted there is a difference but...still.

[Nagawithlegs]

I think it's most likely that RC is Zovaal, someone who betrayed the Eternal Ones a long time ago, but he is going to be sympathetic and an ally.

"Zovaal" is someone else that is manipulating things and making people think that the true Zovaal is fighting back.

[rowaasr13]

He wouldn't have removed Runecarver's memories if he worked for him.

I never said "he's working for him". I said directly the opposite - we could be facing attempt at twist "baldie is someone fighting real Jailer".

[Nagawithlegs]

I never said "he's working for him". I said directly the opposite - we could be facing attempt at twist "baldie is someone fighting real Jailer".

Oh okay. In that case I think baldie is someone using the forces of the true Jailer to attack the Shadowlands, and is NOT fighting the RC. Otherwise he would have killed him.

[Hitei]

This theory falls apart sort of quickly when you look at it in more detail. For example, the Primus' very next line indicates that the Jailer should look like a prisoner, not a warden, because it's only recently that he's turned his chains into something that can be used against others.

Also

Let's go back a bit to when we saw the first leaked image of "The Jailer".

He was a bearded old man decked out in robes, a domination crown and cool floaty armor. He had long pointy fingers and claws, chains all over him, but unlike Zovaal he isn't actually chained to anything nor are his armor pieces. He isn't a prisoner: he's the lord of the prison, even has that cool floating crest that the M+ meta mounts have.

This is inaccurate though, since we have the teaser from announcement where we can see that the Jailer, who Sylvanas serves, is clearly the same bearded "lord" model - it has the crown and the same armor and hair- but is also still just a prisoner, not a free warden:

[Kokolums]

Blizzard tells simple stories. He is not an imposter.

[rowaasr13]

I too hope it is not that cheap twist again. There's tons of arguments why baldie is not a good guy either. At very least we definitely know that he - i.e. this exact bald guy - tormented Jaina as he conjures his icy image in intro quest line. All of Jaina, Anduin and Thrall also recognize him as tormentor when they see him with Baine too and well - throwing people from top of towers is generally not a mark of good guy. There's also his direct quotes on summoning assassins and when you break death count in Torghast that support his "bad guy" image.

[StationaryHawk]

It's an interesting theory, but they wouldn't have shown the original design of the Jailer in both the trailer and at a Blizzcon panel if it was intended to be Zovaal's secret true identity.

And it doesn't change much either way. Imposter or not, the Jailer as we know him is the one trying to conquer the Shadowlands.

[Nagawithlegs]

This theory falls apart sort of quickly when you look at it in more detail. For example, the Primus' very next line indicates that the Jailer should look like a prisoner, not a warden, because it's only recently that he's turned his chains into something that can be used against others.[/IMG]

Both Jailers have armor with chains on it, I don't think this is damning. If both Jailers have a chain powerup, then Primus's statement still stands.

EDIT: Consider this as well: both a prisoner and a jailer utilize and own chains.

This is inaccurate though, since we have the teaser from announcement where we can see that the Jailer, who Sylvanas serves, is clearly the same bearded "lord" model - it has the crown and the same armor and hair- but is also still just a prisoner, not a free warden:

While its true that Sylvanas is answering to old Jailer design here, and has her old armor (which hints at this being a WIP or proof of concept type thing), I have a few suggestions:

1) The story got swapped around, from "the Lord of the Prison is the bad guy" to "an escaped prisoner is the bad guy".
2) This is actually a cutscene from later where the RC Jailer, still chained for some reason, is talking with Sylvanas who has reverted to her old armor. It's a big stretch but the endgame here could be that Sylvanas sides with the TRUE Jailer over "Zovaal" and becomes his lieutenant, leaving her trapped in the maw.

I think it's interesting that in the old shot, he's kneeling almost exactly like the Runecarver does, but then in the rendered cinematic the Jailer is up on his legs. It's such a drastic change in design (old regal lord to muscular, brutish prisoner) that I don't think it's as simple as them just doing a design 180.

I think the BIGGEST THING ingame pointing to Zovaal not actually being the jailer is that they've twice shown him needing other powers to create domination armor and weapon. You're telling me the JAILER OF THE DAMNED needs ANOTHER GUY to make his weaponry?

[Aeluron Lightsong]

I think the BIGGEST THING ingame pointing to Zovaal not actually being the jailer is that they've twice shown him needing other powers to create domination armor and weapon. You're telling me the JAILER OF THE DAMNED needs ANOTHER GUY to make his weaponry?

He has the dark powers, the Runecarver has the natural talent making the great armor and weaponry. The greatest smith in all of the Shadowlands is very good who else to help use to create your army to overtake all of reality?

[Nagawithlegs]

He has the dark powers, the Runecarver has the natural talent making the great armor and weaponry.

Possible, but he's the only Eternal One shown so far to need another giant god figure to do integral things for them.

Courts and Paragons are one thing, but Runecarver seems to do the bulk of the work for the Jailer.

[Th3Scourge]

They've done this to us before. Remember Teron Gorefiend in BC and Drakuru in Wrath?

Drakuru was shit-tier though, this would be titan-tier subversion

[Hitei]

I think the BIGGEST THING ingame pointing to Zovaal not actually being the jailer is that they've twice shown him needing other powers to create domination armor and weapon. You're telling me the JAILER OF THE DAMNED needs ANOTHER GUY to make his weaponry?

Yes? Because again, the Primus literally tells us that the chains were not supposed to be weaponry, they were weaponized. I.e. at no point was Zovaal the lord of chains or master of domination.

[Powerogue]

Not a bad theory all things considered, especially weighing the runes. One would think the carver of domination runes would be the one capable of jailing the dissidents using controlling runes would be The Jailer.

But then who is Baldy?

I have one guess.