This expansion showcased how people do not enjoy m+ at all

[melodramocracy]

I've never enjoyed M+ all that much. The dungeons have fairly low replay entertainment value, and a month or 2 in to an expansion, I've already seen them all more than enough. The majority of affixes are just tedious to deal with, rather than actually entertaining.

I run them if guildies need, but outside of that I'll do one per week just to trigger the GV, and that's that.

[Soon-TM]

It is amazing how the BfA's version of M+ was worse than Legion's, and how SL's is worse than BfA's. Good job there Blizz

[justandulas]

It is amazing how the BfA's version of M+ was worse than Legion's, and how SL's is worse than BfA's. Good job there Bluzz

It’s a case of trying to fix what wasn’t broken, and breaking it in the process

[kaminaris]

It is amazing how the BfA's version of M+ was worse than Legion's, and how SL's is worse than BfA's. Good job there Bluzz

BfA version of M+ was best one. Legion was boring meatgrinder and sl is brick wall simulator.

[erifwodahs]

I've never enjoyed M+ and always hated it being a source of high-end gear for raiding.

Now raiders get items from vault too.
OP would find the same with raids too if, for some reason mythic and HC dropped same ilvl and only gave 226 from vault. You would get a group of pushers and then most of raiders would either drop or complain.

[Puri]

Where are people ever claiming that they did something for for and not for loot? It's a RPG, obviously the thing that brings fun to by far the vast majority of people is progressing their char, which is primarily done by getting better gear. I mean, in all seriousness, why would literally run the same dungeon for the hundreds time for itself be enjoyable?

M+ shows that perfectly, nobody gave a fuck about challenge mode dungeons (unless they gave gear as in the beginning of WoD). So that tiny fraction of players that actually liked challenge mode is the amount of people who would care for rewardless m+.

Or just take a look at arena games played: 156442 Arenas Played (past 24 hours EU+US). BFA season 1 (duration twenty weeks EU+US), overall arena games 2872551, which averages out to 20518 per day. Do you think that number increased eight fold because people now suddenly love PVP, or might it be because suddenly you can (once again) get reasonable gear from PVP?

[schwarzkopf]

I dunno, i do 5+ each week just fine.

Lucky you... most of us don't get to solo them.

[erifwodahs]

It is amazing how the BfA's version of M+ was worse than Legion's, and how SL's is worse than BfA's. Good job there Blizz

Legions was not best, it was fresh, but scaling was all over the place, there were no seasonal affixes and trash was mostly just target dummies with one dangerous mob in the pack.
BfA had Good M+, besides TD (wall pulling)
SL went too far on dangerous mobs, but they are coming back on that, dungeons itself are nice and interesting.

[bloodykiller86]

But that they enjoy the loot it gives.

In BfA you could reach Mythic level of gear by just doing a weekly +15. People were so used to easy gearing like that, that they cry about it this expansion.
People do not enjoy m+ for the content it brings, they solely enjoy to do it because of the loot it gives.

Only a small minority seems to enjoy m+ so much, the rest only cares about the gear.
So many people crying that the gear isn't a high enough ilvl and that it's not often dropped.

I thought that people enjoyed this content regardless? I thought m+ was fun? What happened?

i enjoy it and im not regularly doing +15s lol i would like more gear but im whatever about it. people just got used to getting handed 200 pieces of gear like it was nothing lol

[erifwodahs]

I love M+ ... if only there was a way to more than the 1 or 2 a week, I'd be in.

Raiding on the other had is monotonous and unrewarding.

find a group or roll a tank. Plenty of people looking for other people to do keys with and stop pugging.

[Soon-TM]

@Puri indeed. Those folks claiming that "I don't do X for the gear, just for the challenge" are either part of a TINY minority, or straight out lying. Your PvP example is spot on.

[dacoolist]

WoW is, and has always been a loot-driven game. Just like any other MMORPG since the beginning of time.

Remove loot and see how many people stick around.

Agreed here ^^ it's honestly about loot

If you run 1 M+ a week you'll be decked in 226 , I try to run 4 so I have two shots a loot (I did miss last week due to weather in TX)

Again M+ is the best option for gear imo other than having a group to run Mythic Raid and getting funneled gear of course

I also ran PVP to 1800 for gear as well because it was ok'ish gear for m+ as well (but not so hot for raid)

[schwarzkopf]

find a group or roll a tank

Well - there are no groups around, and not sure how rolling a tank will help get my mage through mythic + runs ?

Be rational dude.

- - - Updated - - -

Those folks claiming that "I don't do X for the gear, just for the challenge" are either part of a TINY minority, or straight out lying. Your PvP example is spot on.

I get gear to do X, I've been doing raiding for a while and have not got any loot from it, get one bit of loot from M+ runs.

[ro9ue]

This might sound counterintuitive, but the more effort Blizzard puts into a system, the worse it becomes. They have a knack for stumbling upon a good system, and then when it's proven successful, moving in with deliberation and intention... and ruining it.

Legion M+ (and WQ) were both imported systems from Diablo 3. They were just essentially copy pasted and fit very nicely into WoW. They saw overwhelming positive reaction - then it immediately became ok how can we fine tune these systems to fit into our 'extend player engagement model' and they started going mucking shit up. WQ became more obnoxious in what you have to do (no more kill 1 mob thing or fun puzzles), they removed the original 4 cache thing on the map (way easier for players) and instead made them callings that you have to go to the NPC to pick up first, M+ is now being exploited to see how long they can get players spinning their wheels on RNG shit. It happens to so many solid systems because they always either a) think they can be smarter than just a simple system that works or b) see something players like and purposefully go in and make it worse to extend it's life to milk player activity (grinds, RNG, etc).

Just look at how many years they tried all those bullshit PVP reward systems and players were just like "can we have the PVP vendor back". Finally got it back and people love it.

[Argorwal]

But that they enjoy the loot it gives.

In BfA you could reach Mythic level of gear by just doing a weekly +15. People were so used to easy gearing like that, that they cry about it this expansion.
People do not enjoy m+ for the content it brings, they solely enjoy to do it because of the loot it gives.

Only a small minority seems to enjoy m+ so much, the rest only cares about the gear.
So many people crying that the gear isn't a high enough ilvl and that it's not often dropped.

I thought that people enjoyed this content regardless? I thought m+ was fun? What happened?

You can say this about any content.

Notice how PvP participation tanked in Legion and BFA where it wasn’t rewarding? Notice how it’s massively spiked now that it is rewarding?

[Accendor]

But that they enjoy the loot it gives.

In BfA you could reach Mythic level of gear by just doing a weekly +15. People were so used to easy gearing like that, that they cry about it this expansion.
People do not enjoy m+ for the content it brings, they solely enjoy to do it because of the loot it gives.

Only a small minority seems to enjoy m+ so much, the rest only cares about the gear.
So many people crying that the gear isn't a high enough ilvl and that it's not often dropped.

I thought that people enjoyed this content regardless? I thought m+ was fun? What happened?

Like many other people you separate the loot from the experience of playing a certain type of content.
This is the wrong approach.
The reward IS part of the experience in any form of content. Character progression is an essential part of the game design and a motivating and rewarding factor for a lot of players, but those players would not have fun by simply taking BiS from their mailbox.
It is one joined experience and when the reward does not match the effort, the experience becomes less and less fun.

[Army Dreamer]

People do not enjoy m+ for the content it brings

Because it does not bring any new content, only more annoyances.

[Bee76]

But that they enjoy the loot it gives.

In BfA you could reach Mythic level of gear by just doing a weekly +15.

You can still do exactly this. Do 1 +14 or +15 a week and hope on the great frustration ....sorry i meant great vault. There is no diffrence between BfA and SL on this. The lack of wf/tf and the low ilvl of gear makes doint more than 4 or 10 m+ a week useless, and overall it feels like massive timewaste.

Besides that, this xpacs m+ is horribly balanced and tuned. try to time a +15 keystone with a party that could use those planned 220 upgrades. play it with palatank, destro lock, holy priest, frostmage und bm hunter all on ilvl 215 and bad covenants on all classes.

I think it will be possible, but it will be real hard work. Now play the same keystone, on the same ilvl with dh tank, resto shaman, firemage, boomy and outlaw with the fotm covenants for those speccs. It will be way way easier.

And spamming 4-10 m+ to get options in the gf....gv is annoying and starts to burn ppl out. Even worse when u play a specc that is not fotm and u have to pug it. Even with valor points and possible upgrades, m+ wont be in a good state in my opinion. Better balance and 1 additional option in the gv would help. Doing 1 +14/15 a week should grant u 2 possible rewards, doing 4 m+14 3 and doing 10 should offer 4 options. same with raiding and pvp.

[huth]

Lucky you... most of us don't get to solo them.

Has it ever occured to you that with you consistently having more trouble with these things than others, that maybe the problem is you?

[Razion]

For all the people pugging keys they aren't playing with friends and aren't getting nearly anything out of the experience except "the joy of dungeoneering with pugs" it is basically just the sense of progress of going up in keys and the loot and beating a boss on a new difficulty or using a new strat. A lot of these situations are rarer, so past discovery and improvement when players in this space hit a rut all they see is loot. So at that point, once they've been there done that, yes it is just loot all the way down or pushing ranking. And not everyone is competitive for ranking so if the people aren't there it won't be as bearable between those rarer moments of improvement and discovery and less loot.