This expansion showcased how people do not enjoy m+ at all

[Thage]

This might sound counterintuitive, but the more effort Blizzard puts into a system, the worse it becomes. They have a knack for stumbling upon a good system, and then when it's proven successful, moving in with deliberation and intention... and ruining it.

This is a good point. Blizzard will stumble on a winning recipe, and then the team's complexity addiction kicks in and the well-received system becomes disliked and controversial, because I would argue, most people just want a game to be a game. Every expansion, Blizzard says they want to move away from the game having homework, but every expansion, they introduce more systems layered on top of systems (fucking hell, Ion even called BFA 'System Soup') that inevitably lead to having homework. I don't know if it's pathological on Ion's end, or there's some meddling, out-of-touch, middle-aged middle-manager who keeps pushing for it, but just like their loot philosophy in SL was 'let loot be loot,' their design philosophy needs to be 'let a game be a game.'

The team needs to learn complicated and nuanced are not synonyms. You can have something be complicated and stupid, just look at Kingdom Hearts's story.

[Vampyrr]

Unfortunately that is a symptom of the gaming culture that became generalized. People no longer play games for fun and immersion, they only care about efficiency and the carrot on the stick. It's quite sad really

You do harder for the challenge and good rewards but without the reward whats the point of doing it?

[Metis]

idk I like M+

[Lucetia]

But that they enjoy the loot it gives.

In BfA you could reach Mythic level of gear by just doing a weekly +15. People were so used to easy gearing like that, that they cry about it this expansion.
People do not enjoy m+ for the content it brings, they solely enjoy to do it because of the loot it gives.

Only a small minority seems to enjoy m+ so much, the rest only cares about the gear.
So many people crying that the gear isn't a high enough ilvl and that it's not often dropped.

I thought that people enjoyed this content regardless? I thought m+ was fun? What happened?

I like M+ in general, what I do not like is how badly balanced it feels this expansion especially as a tank.

[Orwell7]

2 things, both are part of game design 101:

1; risk vs. reward. We got used to a lot lesser risk for a lot higher reward, so why cut it down?
2; rules make a game toxic. Go and find toxicity in chess, for example. It is still a highly competitive AND complicated game, but not toxic. With M+ and "against a timer", without proper "ranking" of players/specs, Blizzard is almost forcing toxicity. No wonder the "playerbase" got more TOXIC right after M+ is released!

[huth]

2; rules make a game toxic. Go and find toxicity in chess, for example. It is still a highly competitive AND complicated game, but not toxic. With M+ and "against a timer", without proper "ranking" of players/specs, Blizzard is almost forcing toxicity. No wonder the "playerbase" got more TOXIC right after M+ is released!

Did you just claim that chess doesn't have rules?

[Lolites]

well... what is fun about repeating the dungeons? i saw the dungeons and learned them in first week... then m+ is just the same dungeons i already did... with increased scaling...

isnt that truth about ANY content?
even pvp becomes repetitive, just take longer

- - - Updated - - -

Go and find toxicity in chess, for example. It is still a highly competitive AND complicated game, but not toxic.

as someone who is actualy in chess league, i can tell you have no fucking clue what you talk about
toxicity is made by PEOPLE, not game itself, so unless you play against computer, yes, even in chess you will meet toxic people...

[Lolites]

BFA season 4 have little under 30m runs in raider.io database, and was runing for 38 weeks

theres almost 20milion runs in this season, which is up for under 10weeks...

[erifwodahs]

Heck, way too many times we had a clean run and people decide to leave on the last boss after ONE wipe. Even if we have time for like 1-2 wipes more to finnish in time

I would really like to know how many times that happened, because I can count on my one hand fingers how many times people left after one wipe on the last boss even when we did not time it, not even talking about when you still have more than 5 minutes on the timer after the wipe and I did 100s of m+ for the last 3 seasons

[Lolites]

it took less time for pvp to become repetitive than for pve this time... tried playing it... first game i played... died instantly to a rogue... second game i played... died instantly to balance druid... third game played... died to a retri paladin from 100% in hammer of justice... fourth game... died instantly to a rogue... fifth game... died instantly to a rogue...

thats my point, EVERYTHING in game is repetitious, thats literaly the base of MMORPG that you repeat the same things over and over, so saying it like its M+ problem is pointless...

[M1r4g3]

This is a good point. Blizzard will stumble on a winning recipe, and then the team's complexity addiction kicks in and the well-received system becomes disliked and controversial, because I would argue, most people just want a game to be a game. Every expansion, Blizzard says they want to move away from the game having homework, but every expansion, they introduce more systems layered on top of systems (fucking hell, Ion even called BFA 'System Soup') that inevitably lead to having homework. I don't know if it's pathological on Ion's end, or there's some meddling, out-of-touch, middle-aged middle-manager who keeps pushing for it, but just like their loot philosophy in SL was 'let loot be loot,' their design philosophy needs to be 'let a game be a game.'

The team needs to learn complicated and nuanced are not synonyms. You can have something be complicated and stupid, just look at Kingdom Hearts's story.

I truly believe that it pisses them off super hard when players play how they want to play and not how blizzard wants them to, its like they feel personally attacked if you don't do things their way, which is kinda funny cause they are trying to outsmart millions of people...

[Bee76]

With M+ and "against a timer", without proper "ranking" of players/specs, Blizzard is almost forcing toxicity. No wonder the "playerbase" got more TOXIC right after M+ is released!

Not the timer makes m+ toxic. having to deal with unexperienced players that wanna do more, than they handle makes m+ toxic. and ofc dealing with bad players makes m+ toxic.

the timer is no problem, everyone who is annoyed by the timer and just wants a finish run for challenge, can open a grp and find ppl with thesame attidue. there are a lot of grps out there labeled with "just finish" "or not intime weekly run" and guess what, these grps are popular as athete's foot.
removing the timer and lowering the rewards will end up like choreghast:
blizz will need to force you to go into like they do now with soulash, otherwise it will end up empty and unloved.


But as mentioned, everyone got the freedom right now to play m+ without a timer, just find 4 more players with the same wish and rock it.

[Lolites]

But that they enjoy the loot it gives.

In BfA you could reach Mythic level of gear by just doing a weekly +15. People were so used to easy gearing like that, that they cry about it this expansion.
People do not enjoy m+ for the content it brings, they solely enjoy to do it because of the loot it gives.

Only a small minority seems to enjoy m+ so much, the rest only cares about the gear.
So many people crying that the gear isn't a high enough ilvl and that it's not often dropped.

I thought that people enjoyed this content regardless? I thought m+ was fun? What happened?

people whine raids dont give enough gear, does that mean nobody likes raids?
or maybe just maybe problem with m+ is not people dont like it but that it gives too little gear LIKE THEY COMPLAIN?!
people want to be rewarded for what they do, whether its in game or in real world, its not realy surprising when reward is shitty people start complaining...

[Squigglyo]

Lower the ilvl of loot that drops from raids and see how few people bother doing raids.


Enjoying something and optimizing your time don't neccesarily match up in an mmorpg.

EG: I hate PVP, but did it to gear up.

[GnomeEU]

I almost solely play for the great vault on 4 characters.
So I'm getting really mad about leavers and have a blacklist hardcoded in lua, so I never see them again.

I have fun in most of my runs I'd say 75%.
I don't like that you're *forced to do 10 runs a week. Especially when you get 3 duplicates then, which happened the last 2 weeks.

With the valor gear update I will farm dungeons alot more to get some bis 220 items.

I will push 20+ keys once I feel I have awesome gear for it.
But comparing a 215 group with a 229 is just not fun.
Here I wish they would bring premade challenge runs back or something where gear doesn't matter.

I did several realm first achievements back when they had real challenge modes.
Now its not possible anymore because 99.9% of players just don't have the gear for it, even if they're great. This is super lame IMHO.

[cparle87]

But that they enjoy the loot it gives.

In BfA you could reach Mythic level of gear by just doing a weekly +15. People were so used to easy gearing like that, that they cry about it this expansion.
People do not enjoy m+ for the content it brings, they solely enjoy to do it because of the loot it gives.

Only a small minority seems to enjoy m+ so much, the rest only cares about the gear.
So many people crying that the gear isn't a high enough ilvl and that it's not often dropped.

I thought that people enjoyed this content regardless? I thought m+ was fun? What happened?

The mythic level gear was only from the weekly chest, one piece per week, that hasn't changed. The stuff you get at the end of the run has always been lower, normal/heroic level, the only difference now is there's less of it.

This just in, people cry about things even, no especially, when there's no real issue. Next article, water still wet, fire still hot.

As for your final statement, people who claim they do content because they enjoy it are partially lying. The proof is in your very argument, that they cry because the reward was made less. There's no line between mandatory and useless anymore.

[bmjclark]

M+ is fun. Tanking M+ is not

[Irefusetodie]

M+ is fun if you have a group. Pugging M+ where people pull random packs, do subpar DPS, don't interrupt/stun/dispel, run terrible routes, and everything else that depletes keys is not fun ESPECIALLY when there's not much loot to be gained.

[Ermelloth]

I think TS is right about many people and he's definitely right about me.

I don't really enjoy M+. It's boring and repetitive (after doing same dungeon over and over), like all instanced PvE is, and affixes like Explosive or Necrotic make it extra stressful and thus even less fun.

But, since PvPers are limited to 550 conq \ week (so you buy one item per 2 weeks more or less + rely on RNG in vault, which usually fails you) and honor gear was limited by ilvl 184 and then 197 (which was pretty low already after first month of 9.0 considering M+ players were decked in 205+ more or less), anyone who wanted to get ANY rating in start of the season pretty much HAD to grind M+ to get the ilvls. As usual.

[intenz]

I don't do pve for the loot, I already have better pvp gear. But I think raids and M+ are fun in moderation to do with friends. I don't care if the loot sucks in M+ it's still rewarding to see how high you can time a run.