This expansion showcased how people do not enjoy m+ at all

[CharlieIrwin]

at the end of the day all m+ does is keep dungeons relevant and challenging in the same time, its a far better system than wrath or mop with badges and valor tied to them

[DeusX]

I love M+! However, being stuck at +14 keys now, I do not like how people decide to quit, leave, or not read-up/learn the mechanics. I have no problem pushing a key and depleting it, but I hate when people just leave with 2 mins left to finish. The community has made it so bad this time around. I actually don't mind running them over an over again as it feels good with different challenges each time based on your comp. Its the people.

Your post kindof proves the OP. You think it's a coincidence you are stuck at 14s? The exact key level providing highest loot in the weekly vault?! Hehe! You are stuck there because people stick around for a 14, sometime even through tens of deaths. So it has quite a higher chance to time. But very few people do higher keys and even fewer stay after a wipe (usualy only guild groups).

[huth]

M+ is fun if you have a group. Pugging M+ where people pull random packs, do subpar DPS, don't interrupt/stun/dispel, run terrible routes, and everything else that depletes keys is not fun ESPECIALLY when there's not much loot to be gained.

Pugging M+ with people that act like everybody should already be a pro isn't much fun, either. Temper your expectations. People need to learn before they can become good, and you're not helping with that.

[Garybear]

But that they enjoy the loot it gives.

In BfA you could reach Mythic level of gear by just doing a weekly +15. People were so used to easy gearing like that, that they cry about it this expansion.
People do not enjoy m+ for the content it brings, they solely enjoy to do it because of the loot it gives.

Only a small minority seems to enjoy m+ so much, the rest only cares about the gear.
So many people crying that the gear isn't a high enough ilvl and that it's not often dropped.

I thought that people enjoyed this content regardless? I thought m+ was fun? What happened?

The content is now hard and full of tryhards. Difficult =/= fun

[LedZeppelin]

I dont think ive seen more people with KSM

[zeidrich]

Loot fills two roles, one is reward, and the other is player progression.

Loot was changed in shadowlands so that M+ dungeons provided loot options through the great vault, but not through drops. Reward can be intrinsic and extrinsic. Intrinsic reward is like feeling satisfied for defeating the next keystone level. Extrinsic reward is like getting a new piece of gear. This change shifted the reward model to more of an intrinsic reward, which is what you mean about whether people "enjoy" m+.

But there's another part to this, which is getting stronger or better. There's a level of pushing you can do within your gear level to do better through execution, but everyone has a slightly different limit there. At that point the only way to improve is by getting more gear. If you enjoy M+, your gear improvement will quickly stall, and your skill improvement will hit a wall, and you will be stuck at a key, basically waiting for another few pieces of gear to give you that little bit more DPS to make the check. No amount of running the dungeons will give you the gear that you need, because they're statted below the ilvl of an upgrade. You need to wait for your weekly chest, to get one item.

Skill doesn't stop, and you'll be able to kind of master the dungeons a bit, if you're in a steady group. It will be slow going, especially as there's 8 dungeons. But some of the skills are transferable, and some make a big difference once you've learned them. Even without gear upgrades you can progress through mastering the content.

But if you're a PuG you run into a couple of new problems. One is, whatever level you are on, when people master it, and tanks in particular, they want to move to the next level. This is the most noticable in the 10-13 range. 14 is when you start getting 226 gear from the vault. 10 is when the complexity of the dungeon ramps up with pride. If you're a good tank for a 11 or 12, you can be a good tank for a 14. So when you PuG you get a tank that is less confident and comfortable with the routing, screws up pride timings, generally has problems. It's the same with DPS and healing, especially this week with grievous. But you end up with a group of people who fail through 10-13, but at the same time, don't get gear. It's even hard to get experience because the groups do everything wrong. Add to that the fact that these levels are the point where chest drops are the ilvl that people who haven't done dungeons will be looking to for upgrades. In the 203-207 range, it seems like the appropriate place for someone who has hit the gear wall from world quests and covenant gear around ilvl 200 to queue for an upgrade. So you get people who feel like they deserve a spot in these groups without even necesarrily knowing the boss mechanics.

Previously, performing at your level would give you gear upgrades and practice. Now, performing at your level doesn't give most people gear upgrades from the chest. The gear is tuned too low, so only people performing at well above average skill might see an upgrade. This means you probably need to be doing a key level that you don't get any upgrades from and you will only move to the next level by getting better at the game, not getting loot. This also means if you're playing with PuGs you're kind of screwed, because when people get better at the game, they stop doing that key level.

M+ would be more fun if it dropped items that were like 7-13 ilvls higher than they do right now. PuGs would be smoother, and players would see progression while improving, players would queue for lower level keys more often, and dungeons would feel easier to PuGs. Fixed groups would get a bit of a faster progression, but would generally feel similar. There would be a slightly lesser fixation on meta classes outside of keys higher than 15.

Valor will bridge this gap, but the proposed system seems like it's still too slow. One nice thing that valor will do is encourage people to run lower keys, which will mean higher skilled players might be there to support lower level dungeons. If your KSM character just needs to pug to get some valor, it might be less stress to cap valor with a few +12s, which means that the overall quality of a +12 pug might increase. Right now, the KSM character has no reason to do anything less than a +14 as anything less won't provide good loot in the vault.

People enjoy M+, but the loot changes make M+ more frustrating in PuGs and the progression from tier to tier slower because of no gear upgrades from chests for most. There is a change to the extrinsic reward, but it's not just reward, it's also power progression.

[Spramp]

But that they enjoy the loot it gives.

In BfA you could reach Mythic level of gear by just doing a weekly +15. People were so used to easy gearing like that, that they cry about it this expansion.
People do not enjoy m+ for the content it brings, they solely enjoy to do it because of the loot it gives.

Only a small minority seems to enjoy m+ so much, the rest only cares about the gear.
So many people crying that the gear isn't a high enough ilvl and that it's not often dropped.

I thought that people enjoyed this content regardless? I thought m+ was fun? What happened?

While I also enjoy raiding, if it weren't for M+ being added to the game I would have quit a long time ago and not returned. Its the most fun aspect about the current game for me. I avoid pugging it though.

[Yuli]

I'm playing M+ more than the past two expansions. I have no idea what you're talking about.

[Tarba]

I never liked timed content, particulary in a rpg. M+ is something that pushed me out of the game.
I never had problem with wiping->explaining->downing. But that's not a m+ thing.

[FarmerEd]

I did enjoy legion M+ more than BfA and Shadowlands. Something about the dungeons not being designed with the competition in mind made them feel a lot more varied, which was fun.

That said, I still enjoy running M+, and from what I read in these forums, it seems like a lot of the people with complaints are pugging it. I honestly couldn't imagine pugging M+ or raiding, running them with a friendly guild really is what makes the experience enjoyable for me, and I can't recommend it enough.

[ghost]

I'm quoting Zeidrich here because if you've not read the comment, you should.

Loot fills two roles, one is reward, and the other is player progression.

Loot was changed in shadowlands so that M+ dungeons provided loot options through the great vault, but not through drops. Reward can be intrinsic and extrinsic. Intrinsic reward is like feeling satisfied for defeating the next keystone level. Extrinsic reward is like getting a new piece of gear. This change shifted the reward model to more of an intrinsic reward, which is what you mean about whether people "enjoy" m+.

But there's another part to this, which is getting stronger or better. There's a level of pushing you can do within your gear level to do better through execution, but everyone has a slightly different limit there. At that point the only way to improve is by getting more gear. If you enjoy M+, your gear improvement will quickly stall, and your skill improvement will hit a wall, and you will be stuck at a key, basically waiting for another few pieces of gear to give you that little bit more DPS to make the check. No amount of running the dungeons will give you the gear that you need, because they're statted below the ilvl of an upgrade. You need to wait for your weekly chest, to get one item.

Skill doesn't stop, and you'll be able to kind of master the dungeons a bit, if you're in a steady group. It will be slow going, especially as there's 8 dungeons. But some of the skills are transferable, and some make a big difference once you've learned them. Even without gear upgrades you can progress through mastering the content.

But if you're a PuG you run into a couple of new problems. One is, whatever level you are on, when people master it, and tanks in particular, they want to move to the next level. This is the most noticable in the 10-13 range. 14 is when you start getting 226 gear from the vault. 10 is when the complexity of the dungeon ramps up with pride. If you're a good tank for a 11 or 12, you can be a good tank for a 14. So when you PuG you get a tank that is less confident and comfortable with the routing, screws up pride timings, generally has problems. It's the same with DPS and healing, especially this week with grievous. But you end up with a group of people who fail through 10-13, but at the same time, don't get gear. It's even hard to get experience because the groups do everything wrong. Add to that the fact that these levels are the point where chest drops are the ilvl that people who haven't done dungeons will be looking to for upgrades. In the 203-207 range, it seems like the appropriate place for someone who has hit the gear wall from world quests and covenant gear around ilvl 200 to queue for an upgrade. So you get people who feel like they deserve a spot in these groups without even necesarrily knowing the boss mechanics.

Previously, performing at your level would give you gear upgrades and practice. Now, performing at your level doesn't give most people gear upgrades from the chest. The gear is tuned too low, so only people performing at well above average skill might see an upgrade. This means you probably need to be doing a key level that you don't get any upgrades from and you will only move to the next level by getting better at the game, not getting loot. This also means if you're playing with PuGs you're kind of screwed, because when people get better at the game, they stop doing that key level.

M+ would be more fun if it dropped items that were like 7-13 ilvls higher than they do right now. PuGs would be smoother, and players would see progression while improving, players would queue for lower level keys more often, and dungeons would feel easier to PuGs. Fixed groups would get a bit of a faster progression, but would generally feel similar. There would be a slightly lesser fixation on meta classes outside of keys higher than 15.

Valor will bridge this gap, but the proposed system seems like it's still too slow. One nice thing that valor will do is encourage people to run lower keys, which will mean higher skilled players might be there to support lower level dungeons. If your KSM character just needs to pug to get some valor, it might be less stress to cap valor with a few +12s, which means that the overall quality of a +12 pug might increase. Right now, the KSM character has no reason to do anything less than a +14 as anything less won't provide good loot in the vault.

People enjoy M+, but the loot changes make M+ more frustrating in PuGs and the progression from tier to tier slower because of no gear upgrades from chests for most. There is a change to the extrinsic reward, but it's not just reward, it's also power progression.

I think part of the problem is that gear (except pvp trinkets) gained in one area is equally useful in others. And so they have to try to restrict loot so as not have to many side effects in other areas of play.

What if gear was tagged with a type of content, and when used in that type of content it gained +13 ilvl. It'd still be worth using cross type occasionally but it'd mean you didn't need to worry about Raid gear breaking PvP, M+ gear devaluing progression in raiding, or raid gear trivializing M+ leaderboards. You could be more generous with loot, giving more rewards, while maintaining progression in multiple paths.


I suppose the counterpoint is my experience. Because of how easily obtainable PvP gear is this expansion, I got in to RBG's. If you believe RaiderIO, I'm the #2 mythic tank on my server. Half my gear comes from PvP because I could get rating and just go buy the 6 pieces of gear that I needed to fill out my gearing set, that let me set to do high M+'s. The restrictive loot from M+ & raiding drove me to PvP. Which I guess from Blizzard's view is me engaging more with the game, so is a success?

[Marrilaife]

M+ used to be fun, then they removed some of the affixes and added new ones, much worse, so now every week is "shit affix" week. Double so if you're a tank or melee dps.

[Ygg]

I like m+. It is basically all I do with the little time I have. I don't raid or pvp anymore.

I think having 3 vault options is better than 1 chest.
I dislike that I can go half a year without getting that weapon upgrade that matters the most due to rng. I think it does not feel good to be locked to a farmable ilvl 210 weapon when you can get 226 from vault or even 233 from raid or pvp.

I would rather that raid, pvp and m+ were self sufficient. I don't agree with the idea that raids or pvp in should be more rewarding because it is more diffi ult like many seem to argue. Clearly m+ can be equally difficult, in its own way, or key level progression would never halt, which it clearly does.

In my 15 years of wow I have gone through periods of only pvp, only raid and only dungeons. I get that blizzard would rather have us do all if it all the time. But I know that I am not alone in zooming in on one of them at a time.

I don't mind working for gear progression. But I hope blizzard improves the current system.

After you start doing m+14s, it takes like 16 weeks with perfect luck to upgrade all your pieces to 226. More than likely the season will be at its end before that happens. Wouldn't it be cool to actually get a chance to see how far you could push in m+ after you get your gear? Instead of spending the whole season waiting for good luck?

Idk. I will keep doing my dungeons, but I hope they figure something out. Maybe valor will help.

[yuze]

I enjoy m+. I only pug it and it can be frustrating but when you get a good group together and the run goes flawlessly it's the most fun I've had in this game. I think gear has been in a good place. The Valor update will help me gear even faster but I don't think it was needed. Im capable of doing all 15s in my current gear. The only ilvl barrier I have is staying ahead of the people applying so I can be the one to get the invite

By a stroke of luck I got invited to a key well above my own, this was before I knew about the weakaura so I would randomly join keys, I was like 700 at the time while the others were 1200 and it was the smoothest, most sensual run I ever had - then I understood the power of rio and focused on improving my score so I could play with people of that caliber. I haven't had the same luck unfortunately I'm playing Ret Pala which isn't meta at all and very average but that one run prooved to me that I understood the mechanics and pulled my own weight respectably. In short: very fun. As for the rest? MEH.

[Wavebossa]

2; rules make a game toxic. Go and find toxicity in chess, for example. It is still a highly competitive AND complicated game, but not toxic.

Kinda offtopic but I had to laugh at this.

The Chess community is dealing with unprecedented levels of toxicity in the past year due to the influx of attention from streamers, the purists who want bullet gone, the reignited debate over WGM vs GM rank separations, reignited debate over Table vs Online, pre-moving, and a ton of other stuff.

The fact that you would make a post like this is odd, unless you just randomly chose Chess as your analog without knowing anything about community at all. Some of their debates sound exactly like Classic vs Retail

[Roundhound]

I never liked timed content, particulary in a rpg. M+ is something that pushed me out of the game.
I never had problem with wiping->explaining->downing. But that's not a m+ thing.

M+ did the exact same thing for me. Timed content just completely ruins the experience and makes it toxic. I used to enjoy doing dungeons in older expansions between raiding with my friends but once Legion came around I had to do this time trial stuff to keep up in gear. I was already playing less, mostly just raiding as an alternate, and when M+ came around and I had to start doing that to feel like I deserved a raid spot, I called it quits.

I personally feel that M+ with timers is the most damaging content added to the game. You already had "problems" in older expansions with gogogo pugs but now this gave them a reason to be "correct". So now everything is all about going as absolutely fast as possible and using the most annoying crap all to skip one add that will pat into the back of the group.

[T-34]

M+ did the exact same thing for me. Timed content just completely ruins the experience and makes it toxic. I used to enjoy doing dungeons in older expansions between raiding with my friends but once Legion came around I had to do this time trial stuff to keep up in gear. I was already playing less, mostly just raiding as an alternate, and when M+ came around and I had to start doing that to feel like I deserved a raid spot, I called it quits.

I personally feel that M+ with timers is the most damaging content added to the game. You already had "problems" in older expansions with gogogo pugs but now this gave them a reason to be "correct". So now everything is all about going as absolutely fast as possible and using the most annoying crap all to skip one add that will pat into the back of the group.

So just because you are unable to do or don't enjoy a particular aspect of WoW then it is toxic?

[Roundhound]

So just because you are unable to do or don't enjoy a particular aspect of WoW then it is toxic?

This is exactly what I mean. The community has gone downhill since M+. I don't enjoy M+ because I hate the group dynamic which is often toxic. So I quit.

[T-34]

This is exactly what I mean. The community has gone downhill since M+. I don't enjoy M+ because I hate the group dynamic which is often toxic. So I quit.

Fair enough. I have the opposite experience with M+ as it has become easier to find and play with competitive people, which has made the game far less toxic for me.

[Raava]

I love mythic plus. I really enjoy the challenge that higher keys bring. I'm quite the opposite to most peoples approach to it too, to be honest. I think that the game shouldn't be split into PvE and PVP, but should instead be split into raids, player versus player and mythic plus. I think that if people want to, they should be able to get the same item level from mythic raiding by doing high keys.

By that, I don't mean doing 15s and getting 226 item level. I mean doing 20's in time for better gear. It's a bit bizarre to me how you can buy gladiator with gold or IRL money and it has the item level it does, whereas you'd be pretty hard pressed to find people selling timed 20s consistently.