"Pay to win"

[Selvari7]

If I would use it, or if others would use it is an entirely different discussion. The entirely fictitious scenario I presented is intentionally absurd to present an example of what I consider to be a very egregious example of P2W, with the only more severe scenario i can think of being purchasing powerful items/buffs that are entirely unobtainable through gameplay.

If a friend wanted to pay real life money to boost a character to play with us I wouldnt be upset or anything, but that doesnt suddenly make it any less P2W.

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How is a sub fee P2W? And no, I have already explained it to you - only if the purchase offers an advantage. You can continue to be extremely disingenuous all you want, it doesnt bother me at all. In the end, other users are smart enough to see through your ridiculous hyperbole and silly examples.

Technically by paying a subscription you're paying to win as opposed to someone who can't even afford the game. In essence, all games are pay to win.

[arkanon]

Technically by paying a subscription you're paying to win as opposed to someone who can't even afford the game. In essence, all games are pay to win.

No, its not - You cannot have an advantage over someone in a game they do not own or play.

[Fisher557]

Boosting character through content with higher level characters can be done equally, or even more efficiently without paying for a second account. This is a massive difference to literally skipping 58 levels, its entirely bypassing the process of getting from 1-58. There is no in game version of this skip - you cannot unlock a certain token on your main and then gift it to an alt granting it 58 levels.

Your argument relies on boosting a character by purchasing two accounts and paying two subs giving you an advantage over others players - and it doesnt.

The closest thing we ever had was when you used RAF and could "gift" levels to other characters - i loved watching some lowbie walk into ironforge suddenly ding a couple dozen times - always made ppl who were unaware of the system freak out.

Your scenario for this is bringing in a third party (another person) to do it for you. I can't see how you aren't understanding this. Also when you do this it either costs you gold, real life money, or a something to pay to person to do it. With a second account you do this for yourself, saving all this money/gold for yourself.

This

Is

An

Advantage

Period.

Your own definition is

>If it provides an in-game advantage for money, it's pay to win

My example is exactly this. There-for it's pay to win. Unless you still want to argue how it isn't, there are a TON of similarities between paid boosts and boosts that I could also argue paid boosts also aren't pay to win.

Honestly this is like explaining how water is wet to a 3 year old at this point lol. At least you're making entertainment from your mental.....issues lol.

[Elbob]

Honestly this is like explaining how water is wet to a 3 year old at this point lol. At least you're making entertainment from your mental.....issues lol.

You are thinking this is so black and white but it isnt. Many people, myself included, would argue unless the service provides a power advantage or rate that can only be earned by using the service its not pay to win cause there is no advantage over the existing players. IE getting 2 raid lock outs per week or gear that is stronger that existing gear but only obtainable via these transactions

Also water isnt wet so pretty weak closing, it makes things wet. (this is a joke btw cause its more nuance which this entire topic is about. Wasn't going to mention this but hey its mmoc so who knows)

[arkanon]

Your scenario for this is bringing in a third party (another person) to do it for you. I can't see how you aren't understanding this. Also when you do this it either costs you gold, real life money, or a something to pay to person to do it. With a second account you do this for yourself, saving all this money/gold for yourself.

This

Is

An

Advantage

Period.

Your own definition is

>If it provides an in-game advantage for money, it's pay to win

My example is exactly this. There-for it's pay to win. Unless you still want to argue how it isn't, there are a TON of similarities between paid boosts and boosts that I could also argue paid boosts also aren't pay to win.

Honestly this is like explaining how water is wet to a 3 year old at this point lol. At least you're making entertainment from your mental.....issues lol.

As others are trying to explain to you, your scenario is not P2W. You are now modifying my argument by saying you can only achieve similar results by paying someone else - even though I provided two examples where no payment is made. I have run hundreds of dungeons with friends and no payment was made.

Additionally, I hope the irony of your closing statements is not lost on you - water is not wet.

You also continue to ignore some issues with your plan - such as the 5/hour 30/24hour limits - meaning your system cannot be run "infinitely" as you claimed earlier. I bring this up again now, because it is one of the many holes in your argument that just don't add up.

[Argorwal]

They reduced the experience required for 1-60, added quests and quest hubs (apart from blood elf/draenei hubs) and later on in TBC also introduced recruit-a-friend. They would never think for a second to introduce boosts. TBC wasn't about being a separate game, it was an expansion to an already huge game that people are now just trying to ignore for their instant gratification purposes. It's not like you're missing out on a huge part of the game because you have to level first, leveling is also a big part.

This isn’t TBC. This isn’t an expansion onto the base game, and the only version of the game available at the time.

This is TBC classic, a re-release of an old game. When TBC classic launches there will be 3 independent simultaneous versions of WoW being run for players to choose from (classic era, TBC classic, shadowlands).

The boost allows people who want to play a re-release or TBC to, actually start playing in TBC.

The people with the actual advantage are those playing classic right now, which is a completely different game and wasn’t even stated to be migrating to TBC until last week, who will be walking into TBC with hundreds of thousands of gold, full T3, and multiple 60s. All for playing a version of the game many people don’t consider good compared to TBC, and when when TBC launches will still exist also as a standalone game.

Those who want to play TBC classic, focused on actual TBC, are WAY behind those who played vanilla classic.

Call it p2w all you want, it’s happening and it’s the right decision.

[arkanon]

who will be walking into TBC with hundreds of thousands of gold, full T3, and multiple 60s.

Gonna press a massive X for doubt about that one - your point isnt "wrong" but man, if you think people playing Classic have hundreds of thousands of gold, i have a bridge to sell that you might be interested in.

[Kyanion]

Gonna press a massive X for doubt about that one - your point isnt "wrong" but man, if you think people playing Classic have hundreds of thousands of gold, i have a bridge to sell that you might be interested in.

I mean there will be people with enough gold to cause massive headaches on realms. I think it is the main reason why I've no interest in TBC unless they make realms where these 58s can go and don't let transfers happen to those realms. The multiple 60s and gear does not bother me really, as levelling eventually fixes that, but the gold disparity is quite real.

[Argorwal]

Gonna press a massive X for doubt about that one - your point isnt "wrong" but man, if you think people playing Classic have hundreds of thousands of gold, i have a bridge to sell that you might be interested in.

Half my guild plays 10k death rolls for fun during a raid. Losing 10k, 20k, 30k with no sweat at all. Hundreds of thousands is probably a bit of a high estimate, but MANY players will be walking in with 10k-50k gold easily. Epic flyers will be absolutely everywhere as soon as players start hitting 70.

Even looking around at classic, where its almost impossible to find a 60 NOT on an epic mount, makes it pretty clear the gold situation is not anything at all like classic.

Also GDKP runs where people pay insane prices for items, often 5-10k on a single solid item or more.

[ztkraptor]

Do you not understand that some people actually like this game and want to support Blizzard? That we're adults capable of making informed decisions?

Why would I want video games to be what they used to be? I'm not who I used to be. My tastes aren't what they used to be. I've got a raspberry pi hooked up to my tv, filled with nearly every Nintendo, Super Nintendo, Genesis, and GBA game, and you know what? I never touch it. I love those games with all of my heart and I can barely play them anymore. So, no, I don't want games to be what they used to be. I want them to evolve and change with the times.

You know what I don't want? What I really, really want to avoid? What I hope I will never have to do again? Level through Vanilla WoW content.

I might actually come back for TBC Classic and the level 58 boost is the entire reason why.

Since you like questions so much, here's one for you: Who the fuck do you think you are to tell us how to enjoy games? How to spend our money?

Well,

I don't mind the boost really, however I think that there are a lot of people who aren't you, who dislike it and think it will impact their experience.

As you said you barely play any games, so why should the game cater to the very few who generally won't even play to begin with instead of those who have been sticking with classic. You are not who the game is meant for, you are a passer by a onlooker not the gamer who TBC classic should be targeted towards.

[Dhrizzle]

Technically by paying a subscription you're paying to win as opposed to someone who can't even afford the game. In essence, all games are pay to win.

Let's not forget the advantages people get buying fancy mice and decent computers, I'd like to see someone get world first or dominate arena with minimum spec Pacard Bell, cheapest gfx card with enough RAM and a 2-button track-ball mouse.

[ztkraptor]

Gonna press a massive X for doubt about that one - your point isnt "wrong" but man, if you think people playing Classic have hundreds of thousands of gold, i have a bridge to sell that you might be interested in.

I have over 500k gold over all my characters in classic. Making gold is extremely easy.

[Freedom]

Of course I’m getting fuckingworked up over it. I have a fucking right to express my anger that every aspect of our lives are becoming hyper-minmaxed for profit with predatory microtransaction practices and bullshit. My question is why the FUCK aren’t more people this angry? Why the FUCK don’t people express their fucking anger anymore? It’s fucking baffling what the world is fuckijg turning to and people are taken aback when people SUDDENLY show a little bit of fucking human PASSION?

Honestly, fuck human passion. I will take a calm, level headed individual with a drive and ambition untainted by "strong and barely controllable emotion" any day over someone so excited about something they can barely hold themselves together. You can function perfectly well with muted emotions. Passion gave us the likes of Adolf Hitler, and many other excitable idiots not as evil as he was, and that's a "gift" I'll pass on, thanks.

[Devilyaki]

This isn’t TBC. This isn’t an expansion onto the base game, and the only version of the game available at the time.

This is TBC classic, a re-release of an old game. When TBC classic launches there will be 3 independent simultaneous versions of WoW being run for players to choose from (classic era, TBC classic, shadowlands).

The boost allows people who want to play a re-release or TBC to, actually start playing in TBC.

The people with the actual advantage are those playing classic right now, which is a completely different game and wasn’t even stated to be migrating to TBC until last week, who will be walking into TBC with hundreds of thousands of gold, full T3, and multiple 60s. All for playing a version of the game many people don’t consider good compared to TBC, and when when TBC launches will still exist also as a standalone game.

Those who want to play TBC classic, focused on actual TBC, are WAY behind those who played vanilla classic.

Call it p2w all you want, it’s happening and it’s the right decision.

Then the boost should be free

[arkanon]

Half my guild plays 10k death rolls for fun during a raid. Losing 10k, 20k, 30k with no sweat at all. Hundreds of thousands is probably a bit of a high estimate, but MANY players will be walking in with 10k-50k gold easily. Epic flyers will be absolutely everywhere as soon as players start hitting 70.

Even looking around at classic, where its almost impossible to find a 60 NOT on an epic mount, makes it pretty clear the gold situation is not anything at all like classic.

Also GDKP runs where people pay insane prices for items, often 5-10k on a single solid item or more.

You realise 10k gold is quite a stretch from "hundreds of thousands" - its not a small differences, its the difference between a cheap car and a house (using real world examples, obviously). My issue isnt with the assertion that players have managed to accumulate large quantities of gold, i know they have, im one of them. My issue is with presenting it as typical or average, or representative of the majority of players. It is far from it.

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I mean there will be people with enough gold to cause massive headaches on realms. I think it is the main reason why I've no interest in TBC unless they make realms where these 58s can go and don't let transfers happen to those realms. The multiple 60s and gear does not bother me really, as levelling eventually fixes that, but the gold disparity is quite real.

What issue do you think will occur with the gold that will directly impact you?

[Zyky]

It's a p2w feature that anyone who wants to be competitive on alliance shaman or horde paladin will have to use, for sure.

See this king of idiotic reply is what's always been wrong with the WoW community. They explicitly said you can't use the boost on Draenei or Blood Elf, meaning you can't use it on Alliance Shaman or Horde Paladins.

[Mysterymask]

lmao get this fucker outta here , it ruins your pockets not the game

I don't think it will really touch the boost market..at worst will flood the seller market assuming a bunch of classic players who didn't have a mage might use it to boost a mage for the sake of boosting other people..add in the fact it only works once and not on Blood Elves/Dranaei and your going to see a bunch of folks still buying boosts from mages...hell add in the fact those 60 mages will then become 70 mages that are able to just destroy old content faster than the 60 ones and probably a market to boost people from 58-70 and if anything it might just lower the price of a boost a bit but still going to be used.

[Kyanion]

What issue do you think will occur with the gold that will directly impact you?

It will impact my fun, it will impact my enjoyment of playing the AH when I play the game. I'd be at a MASSIVE disadvantage that didn't exist in Vanilla going to TBC. I wouldn't have a chance trying to focus on jewelcrafting for massive gold returns because the market of mats would be destroyed instantly. Want to buy consumables? Yeah they are far far more expensive now, why? Because old gold from classic sets the market. I'd feel the impact of being not full strength because I wouldn't have the potions/flasks/drums/and so on.

That is my reason for staying away if it comes out as stated.

[Ludvig]

The people with the actual advantage are those playing classic right now, which is a completely different game and wasn’t even stated to be migrating to TBC until last week, who will be walking into TBC with hundreds of thousands of gold, full T3, and multiple 60s. All for playing a version of the game many people don’t consider good compared to TBC, and when when TBC launches will still exist also as a standalone game.

Those who want to play TBC classic, focused on actual TBC, are WAY behind those who played vanilla classic.

Call it p2w all you want, it’s happening and it’s the right decision.

They could just add fresh TBC servers if the concern is that classic players will have an edge. Servers that you can't migrate your classic characters to. They could do much better decisions than this garbage but they just have to choose the extremely greedy and embarrassing one and the retail players sit and cheer. Blizzard just keeps putting straws on the camel's back, they can't help their own greed. It's the right decision in your mind, certainly not in mine or literally any of the people I know who play the game.

Even the lead game designer for vanilla-wotlk WoW facepalmed and laughed at the option.

[Kyanion]

I don't think it will really touch the boost market..at worst will flood the seller market assuming a bunch of classic players who didn't have a mage might use it to boost a mage for the sake of boosting other people..add in the fact it only works once and not on Blood Elves/Dranaei and your going to see a bunch of folks still buying boosts from mages...hell add in the fact those 60 mages will then become 70 mages that are able to just destroy old content faster than the 60 ones and probably a market to boost people from 58-70 and if anything it might just lower the price of a boost a bit but still going to be used.

I mean the dude's profile is basically flat out advertising gold selling, why they've not been banned yet is beyond me. What you think they gonna do with that boosting gold they've got? Sell it to people coming to TBC for cash? Nah....

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Even the lead game designer for vanilla-wotlk WoW facepalmed and laughed at the option.

Yeah and plenty of people from Vanilla-Wotlk had terrible ideas about class balance and hybrid taxes, pointless keying to be eligible to do raids, reputation grinds on dungeons, what of it?