Arthas did Nothing Wrong

[schwarzkopf]

After seeing the latest patch cinematic, is Anduin responsible of what he did in it? if no, then the same goes for Arthas as he was under the Jailer influence all along.

If Anduin is innocent, then that means most of the villains in WoW history were innocent.

Is Sylvanus under the control of the Jailer ?
Was Guldan under the control of the Fel?

[Pebrocks The Warlock]

If Anduin is innocent, then that means most of the villains in WoW history were innocent.

Is Sylvanus under the control of the Jailer ?
Was Guldan under the control of the Fel?

Sylvanus and Guldan choose their servitude and can rebel at any point. Anduin is literally a puppet with no choices of his own.

[schwarzkopf]

Sylvanus and Guldan choose their servitude and can rebel at any point.

Well - no, they can't rebel at any point, that's sort of the definition of being under control of something.

[Stormwolf64]

This is the case of "everyone seeing the same, but at the same time seeing completely different things" Arthas didn't betray anyone. At least where Stratholme is concerned. I'd rather say he was betrayed or abandoned. Arthas knew Stratholme needed to be purged and that's what he did and he was completely right (the place was tainted to hell and beyond afterall). Yet his friends and allies abandoned him before going into Stratholme.

I mean, you'd have to be the "stick head into sand and pretend nothing is wrong" personality to put that blame onto him. There was a problem and he dealt with it. The consequences of not purging Stratholme would be 10 times more severe.

[Pebrocks The Warlock]

Well - no, they can't rebel at any point, that's sort of the definition of being under control of something.

They have the choice of doing so. Gul'dan was able to rebel till he got too overconfident. Sylvanus is obviously going to go against the Jailer at some point. The difference between them and Anduin is he has no control. He cannot plan his rebellion or do anything for himself. He is literally a puppet.

[Baroclinic]

Putting Stratholm aside (means justify the ends).
Ignoring burning the ships, because there was a war to finish...

He still lied to his men about the ships and had his own allies murdered for his crime. And that was all pre-Frostmorne.

[EntertainmentNihilist]

I mean Lordaeron as a whole. How did it benefit from Arthas killing his father and burning the kingdom?

Less scourge = less lives lost. Less people died. Arguably, the Battle For Mount Hyjal could have gone differently with an extra major city worth of scourge at the Legion's disposal.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

We don't actually know 100% whether Arthas had the ability to do either of those things in current lore, but the original Warcraft Ultimate Visual Guide explicitly stated that Arthas did disband the order; however, subsequent books, such as the expanded version of the Visual Guide and Chronicle, have only stated he sent them away and considered their actions treason, so it may be considered a soft retcon, though not 100% confirmed to have been so.



This isn't the concrete evidence that you think it is. Terenas was the king, and had the supreme authority in Lordaeron. It would be trivial for him to reverse a degree made in the field by Arthas, especially given it was an order only heard by the Knights of the Silver Hand and Jaina. That Uther later held rank doesn't actually have bearing on whether Arthas' actions had weight.

We actually know from the ashbringer comic that they were 100% suspended, rather the king countermanded that or not is never said though.

[EntertainmentNihilist]

Putting Stratholm aside (means justify the ends).
Ignoring burning the ships, because there was a war to finish...

He still lied to his men about the ships and had his own allies murdered for his crime. And that was all pre-Frostmorne.

If he didn't, his men may have flipped on him. If they had, he couldn't beat Mal'Ganis (whom Arthas thought was behind everything).

Thus, from Arthas perspective, this was another trolley problem. If he told the truth, Mal'Ganis would live to keep scourging populations. If he lied, Mal'Ganis dies and the kingdom is saved.

[Magical Mudcrab]

We actually know from the ashbringer comic that they were 100% suspended, rather the king countermanded that or not is never said though.

In the current context it's not confirmed, which is the point. Arthas was explicitly stated to have the power to disband the Knights of the Silver Hand in the original Ultimate Visual Guide and, as you linked, the Ashbringer comic. That Arthas historically had this power isn't (or, at least, shouldn't) be in dispute. The problem is that Chronicle does not make mention of this and, in fact, this was also something removed from the revised version of the Ultimate Visual Guide. That's why I note that it may be a soft retcon, because it's status is in question due to it being omitted in the most recent sources.

[Shyning]

People who fault Arthas for anything pre-Frostmourne are not really worth debating, they live in a fantasy world where their facts replace anything anyone could ever say.

[huth]

In the current context it's not confirmed, which is the point. Arthas was explicitly stated to have the power to disband the Knights of the Silver Hand in the original Ultimate Visual Guide and, as you linked, the Ashbringer comic. That Arthas historically had this power isn't (or, at least, shouldn't) be in dispute. The problem is that Chronicle does not make mention of this and, in fact, this was also something removed from the revised version of the Ultimate Visual Guide. That's why I note that it may be a soft retcon, because it's status is in question due to it being omitted in the most recent sources.

I dunno about you, but i'm seeing "He does not have the power to take such action" right on that page there.

On that note

Domination magic was also how the Jailer intended to use the Lich King as a weapon on Azeroth. However while the Jailer was able to influence Ner’zhul and Arthas, they both retained their free will and thus were largely in control of their own actions.

[sam86]

Anduin is being directly mind-controlled. Arthas burned a city, killed allied mercenaries, doomed his soldiers to die, and this is before touching Frostmourne. Afterwards, he was never controlled, only lead. His emoted were sapped but he still had free will. He chose to kill his father and destroy his kingdom.

except burning the city, it was the right action
but everything else i agree with, he lost his mind, hard to blame him after the horrible act he did
HOWEVER
lot of ppl forget that even as LK, everything the scourge did was under Arthas control, Arthas novel clearly show Arthas in full control, he took all control from Nerz'hul

[Magical Mudcrab]

I dunno about you, but i'm seeing "He does not have the power to take such action" right on that page there.

The off-screen paladin are free to say Arthas does not have the power to do that, but that doesn't make it correct. We can see from what Lord Commander Dathrohan says, who undoubtedly outranks them, Arthas did and they had to wait for Uther to request for Terenas to overturn the decision. Hence why he said they were to "officially [do] nothing", and had to unofficially work towards stopping the Scourge; however, more recent sources call into question the canonicity of that event.

On that note

I don't know whether this was directed at me, but I'm not talking about whether Arthas as fully in control of his actions or not. This is simply about whether he had the ability to disband the Knights of the Silver Hand, which appears to be in question as the most recent interpretations of the events omit this. Previously, this was explicitly stated as something Arthas did in every mention of the Culling of Stratholme, but has not been mentioned since the revised version of the Ultimate Visual Guide was released, which had removed the note of Arthas disbanding the Knights of the Silver Hand that existed in the previous version.

[Kithelle]

Yes he did, he was in full control of himself all the way till he got ahold of frostmourne. Anduin is walking a meat puppet.

If Sylvanas can be forgiven then so can Arthas

[Musta]

Please dont touch Arthas. Sincerely, 90% of the playerbase.

[MikeBogina]

Please dont touch Arthas. Sincerely, 90% of the playerbase.

At this point, it's more disgraceful to just make a huge story revolving around Frostmourne, The Helm of Domination and Sylvanas and not include Arthas(who is wrongfully in the place we're going to) and to make it worse, copy all the things about Arthas and just paste it onto Anduin.

Rather of just had Arthas.

[huth]

The off-screen paladin are free to say Arthas does not have the power to do that, but that doesn't make it correct. We can see from what Lord Commander Dathrohan says, who undoubtedly outranks them, Arthas did and they had to wait for Uther to request for Terenas to overturn the decision. Hence why he said they were to "officially [do] nothing", and had to unofficially work towards stopping the Scourge; however, more recent sources call into question the canonicity of that event.

Actually, Dathrohan only says they're to officially sit by and wait while Uther discusses the matter with Terenas. Nothing about overturning anything. More likely to be meant to avoid causing diplomatic incidents than anything else.

You can order whatever you want even without having the authority and power to do so, you just can't expect the orders to be followed. That Arthas gave that order doesn't mean that it is actually valid.

And frankly, i'd trust these paladins to know what he can and cannot do over Arthas.

The rest wasn't really directed at you in particular, more at the topic in general. Arthas does carry responsibility post-Frostmourne.

[Dellis0991]

If Sylvanas can be forgiven then so can Arthas

^True....shitty but true

[Traveler Voltin]

If Sylvanas can be forgiven then so can Arthas

arthas did worse.