Lost Codex and Bellular Lore Interview. [Spoilers]

[Lorgar Aurelian]

This is actually really fucking stupid, and better be a "perspective" thing they keep referring to, like how Chronicle is the Titans perspective.

Sentient beings coming before absolute forces of certainty and probability? Seriously?

Ya I’m really hoping they misspoke or it’s coming cross wrong or something because of light and void were made by something else that’s incredibly stupid.

[Super Dickmann]

I don't know what's up with the writers and Ner'zhul. Ever since Chronicle he's been dicked again and again. I half-expected Danuser to turn to stone like a vampire upon being reminded Ner'zhul exists. And it's not just him, this started since Warlords when Metzen was still around or hell, even Wrath had him bumped off of-screen so Arthas can be the only Lich King. What did Ner'zhul ever do to you?

One thing I do like is that they weren't caught off guard by the question about the draenei soulbinders and just went along with there being loopholes to the collection process. Ditto they didn't retcon Thros but gave a more sensible explanation for it than Afrasiabi's. The Maw thing though is baffling to me - if fucking Galactus isn't irredeemable and neither is the doctor from Scholomance or Kel'thuzad, then who is?

I dread what they do with our boy Garrosh.

[AwkwardSquirtle]

I don't know what's up with the writers and Ner'zhul. Ever since Chronicle he's been dicked again and again. I half-expected Danuser to turn to stone like a vampire upon being reminded Ner'zhul exists. And it's not just him, this started since Warlords when Metzen was still around or hell, even Wrath had him bumped off of-screen so Arthas can be the only Lich King. What did Ner'zhul ever do to you?

One thing I do like is that they weren't caught off guard by the question about the draenei soulbinders and just went along with there being loopholes to the collection process. Ditto they didn't retcon Thros but gave a more sensible explanation for it than Afrasiabi's. The Maw thing though is baffling to me - if fucking Galactus isn't irredeemable and neither is the doctor from Scholomance or Kel'thuzad, then who is?

I dread what they do with our boy Garrosh.

Let's be fair to the current crop of writers, they've been screwing Ner'zhul over since at least Wrath when the Arthas novel ended with Arthas bullying him into submission and then assimilating him.

[MikeBogina]

Danuser and Bellular need to learn how to differentiate from Arthas as a DK and Arthas as the Lich King. DK Arthas was under Ner'zhul's control, why would this even be brought up when discussing Zovaal??

Also Danuser saying it's not a shade or echo needs to go back and watch all the evil undead dude's die who expressed relief and gratitude.

Starting to not like this expansion, at least in the lore. They sweep under the rug how important Ner'zhul was to the existence of the Lich King and keep bringing up how Zovaal tried to control them, basically ignoring the whole story that was Ner'zhul rebelling against the Legion.

[TickTickTick]

wait is this saying that the first ones made light and void or are light and void first ones or what?

At first I thought they structured it in a confusing way and they meant that the First Ones created the Light and the Void.

But then it got me thinking:

Velen compared Elune to Naaru. Tear of Elune opened the Light's Heart.
The First Ones are the ones who created the Shadowlands. The clash of Light and Void is what created the universe.

It could be that Elune is one of the First Ones and the Light itself. Whether the only First Ones are the Light and the Void, or there were more from the very begining, or the clash between the Light and the Void created more First Ones (but would they be First Ones at this point?) is still a mystery.

Maybe we'll learn something from the Brokers. They seem particularly interested in the First Ones and "the Purpose" and they seem to me that they are not of Shadowlands itself, some of them is just in there for now doing research and trading knowledge.

[Nerovar]

dayuuum, so they are actually bringing ner'zhul back
5 bucks say hell be killed forever in the raid, as a final disrespect to his character-.-

Raid? Let's make it a 5 man dungeon.

[Magical Mudcrab]

This is actually really fucking stupid, and better be a "perspective" thing they keep referring to, like how Chronicle is the Titans perspective.

Sentient beings coming before absolute forces of certainty and probability? Seriously?

That's how virtually every fantasy universe works. From the chaotic forces of a primordial universe, one or more intelligences or forces begin to form. These entities/forces then begin imposing some form order onto the primordial chaos, allowing for the rise of other beings either through direct creation or as a consequence of the nature of the order imposed. This holds for universes like D&D, Pathfinder, LotR, Elder Scrolls, etc. If we found the Light and Void were created by the First Ones, that would be the least important retcon in the history of Warcraft as it has not impacted the story in any meaningful way.

[Pebrocks The Warlock]

Raid? Let's make it a 5 man dungeon.

I think he'll be part of the "Fate of the Damned" boss fight in the new raid. It was mentioned these are some of the worst souls that the Jailer has personally tormented. This would be a fitting place for the failed Lich King to be at.

[Daronokk]

Ner'zhul and Garrosh show up? Sign me up. I might just play this expansion after all.

Now just waiting on confirmation that they aren't shit on some more. Please give them a good story arc. Garrosh needs a redemption of some sort, not character breaking but at least a positive note as opposed to what he got.

Ner'zhul I'm not sure about, he's kind of a sad hero that got used, should he be a good guy underneath or an evil force working with the Jailer? I don't know yet what I'd like, both could work if done right.

[SirFinlot]

Who created the First Ones?
Who created the creators of First Ones?
Who created the creators of the First Ones creators?

Can I be the one to name them?

Asspullarians
Thisloreisshitians
Whothefuckwritesthiscrapians

[Daronokk]

I don't know what's up with the writers and Ner'zhul. Ever since Chronicle he's been dicked again and again. I half-expected Danuser to turn to stone like a vampire upon being reminded Ner'zhul exists. And it's not just him, this started since Warlords when Metzen was still around or hell, even Wrath had him bumped off of-screen so Arthas can be the only Lich King. What did Ner'zhul ever do to you?

They got rid of Ner'zhul as well as Arthas leading up to Wrath of the Lich King. They replaced both for a generic evil villain known only as the Lich King.

It's explained in the book but the reasoning for that choice comes from elsewhere. The voice actor of Arthas demanded better pay for his iconic role for WotLK and Blizzard refused, which is why Arthas' voice was written out. They even came up with a stupid reason why both Arthas and Ner'zhul were no more and only an evil entity called the Lich King remained.

I fully expect Ner'zhul to be written out of the story at the same time just because of the Arthas voice actor thing.

Just look at the WotLK reveal trailer. That still has Arthas' voice actor in it and was before the whole debacle. Listen closely to the ending scene and you can hear Arthas' voice shift into that of an Orc. Especially the word "King". Then there is the storyline in Howling Fjord for Alliance where the Lich King talks about being a Shaman once. That's probably a leftover of an early storyline before writing out Arthas and Ner'zhul.

Long story short, Ner'zhul was planned to have a role in WotLK but was dropped due to voice actor stuff going on.

And now that more backstory to death magic, the Lich King and such is being explained it makes sense to touch some of the loose ends. So Ner'zhul showing up makes sense. In the book it's never confirmed he's gone, just that his form 'vanishes', which could just be temporary.

[Angelica Angelus]

There was still a sliver of Arthas/his good left that is what prevented the Scourge from rampaging across Azeroth

Why do they always have to do stuff like this?

[Raetary]

The First Ones created the cosmos, such as the Light and the Void.

Are they serious?
What a way to just completely throw out the chronicles.

My god.

[A Chozo]

"The First Ones created the cosmos, such as the Light and the Void"

...Fuck. They had a nice, good origin story and settled universe to expand, then they made... Titans again, but greater.

And then, 10 years from now, a new writter will say that the First Ones were created by the Original Lords.

[Nerovar]

...Fuck. They had a nice, good origin story and settled universe to expand, then they made... Titans again, but greater.

And then, 10 years from now, a new writter will say that the First Ones were created by the Original Lords.

The First Ones were created by the Death Lords and the Titans were made by the Order Lords.

Ultimately this shows the problem with exploring mythologies this way instead of using them as a backdrop for smaller scale stories.

[TheFirstOnes]

Ya I’m really hoping they misspoke or it’s coming cross wrong or something because of light and void were made by something else that’s incredibly stupid.

Why? It's not like the Chronicle is some 1 all, be all bible anyway. It's just a limited view of how the Cosmos works based on the Pantheon's perspective of things. Why isn't there a power beyond Light and Shadow?

- - - Updated - - -

The First Ones were created by the Death Lords and the Titans were made by the Order Lords.

Ultimately this shows the problem with exploring mythologies this way instead of using them as a backdrop for smaller scale stories.

Uhm, no? What's your evidence behind this weird claim?

- - - Updated - - -

And here I was thinking that Light and Void were the primordial forces in the Warcraft universe...

They are, as the big bang created a lot of things from the Cosmos, or so it was once thought. It's not hard to imagine the First Ones made the primordial forces of the Cosmos. As it's implied by Ion and Steve that the First Ones made the laws or the framework of everything, and the Cosmic Pantheons and the influences (AKA the Cosmic Forces of Light, Shadow, etc) came right after. Hell, the Arbiter existed before memory itself on some accounts. No reason to assume the First Ones aren't akin to the true gods of WoW.

- - - Updated - - -

The First Ones created the cosmos, such as the Light and the Void.

This was NEVER stated, actually. They merely implied that the First Ones made the cosmic powers of Light and Shadow, etc. But that's it. Steve only said that: The First Ones scale above the Cosmic Pantheons, and that the First Ones architected the framework of the Warcraft verse, and that they were the progenitor's of the Cosmos.

I do, however, believe that the First Ones created Light and Shadow, and that hence caused the Big Bang.

- - - Updated - - -

Ya that’s what I was thinking. If there the first ones them selfs then it works but if they were made by the first ones then that’s even more lore thrown out the window.

Not really. Chronicle only explored the Cosmic Chart and bit and expressed the importance of each Cosmic Power. Light and Shadow were the primordial forces keeping things together, and that those 2 forces shaped the main factors of the Cosmos and the Cosmic chart we see today. HOWEVER, that does not mean they made everything. Blizzard's also mentioned multiple times that we're going to expand beyond the Cosmic Chart, which makes sense, if they're really going to hype up the First Ones as much as they are.

It's highly possible that the First Ones made the Cosmic forces of Light and Shadow, which went and caused the big bang that shaped the Cosmos with life, etc. And while that happened, the plane of Disorder was also made from light and Shadow, the First Ones focused on the Shadowlands and the other Cosmic Planes, and once everything was made, the First Ones created the Cosmic Pantheons to expand upon their designs.

There, you have a complete history of why the Warcraft Universe is the way it is, and nothing is retconned whatsoever.

- - - Updated - - -

Also, nothing implies the First Ones are of Light and Shadow. Actually, Blizzard implies the total opposite.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

Why? It's not like the Chronicle is some 1 all, be all bible anyway. It's just a limited view of how the Cosmos works based on the Pantheon's perspective of things. Why isn't there a power beyond Light and Shadow?

Because over righting primordial powers creating existence for some out of universe gods is just a stupid idea unless there is some major build up to it before hand.

[TheFirstOnes]

This is actually really fucking stupid, and better be a "perspective" thing they keep referring to, like how Chronicle is the Titans perspective.

Sentient beings coming before absolute forces of certainty and probability? Seriously?

The First Ones don't even need to be Sentient Beings. They could just be omnipotent, all powerful forces of nature such as Christianity's God, or something akin to that. Besides, certainty and probability aren't absolutes in terms of hierarchy of power. Concepts, laws, and platonic's such as those can infact be made by higher powers that will it.

[Nize]

So Garrosh leaving Revendreth. I'm going to assume (as it's the most fitting) that he's going to be a Necrolord and be involved in a story with Thrall, who should already be heading that way to unite with Draka.

[TheFirstOnes]

Because over righting primordial powers creating existence for some out of universe gods is just a stupid idea unless there is some major build up to it before hand.

Nothing is overwritten. Blizzard is just expanding upon what's already been established. The First Ones crafted the frameworks of the Cosmos, and the Light and Void were the means necessary in making the Cosmos a reality. Then, once that occurred, they expanded upon such a factor in different ways, while also working on the Cosmic Realms.

And there is a ton of build up to the First Ones. We're literally going to learn more about their existence throughout the next couple of expansions. Shadowlands is the first step into actually exploring the Warcraft Cosmos, outside of the fucking Burning Legion and Titan lore shit we've been seeing since forever.

- - - Updated - - -

So Garrosh leaving Revendreth. I'm going to assume (as it's the most fitting) that he's going to be a Necrolord and be involved in a story with Thrall, who should already be heading that way to unite with Draka.

Thrall and Draka reuniting in 9.1 would be heartwarming to see, tbh. Idk what they plan to do with Garrosh, however. If he does become a Necrolord tho, that would be cool. Especially since he's all about strength, power, etc.