Minimum Wage increase Good? Bad? Ugly?

[kail]

No it's a pretty solid rebuttal as it highlights the negative effects in a more obvious way.

It's a logical fallacy, pure and simple. By your argument, there should be no minimum wage and jobs could legally pay $2 an hour. Minimum wage exists to protect lower-end workers and as it stands it is not enough for most areas.

There is no magic number to the appropriate minimum wage as it depends on the cost of living which is insanely diverse between areas.

[Katchii]

The problem is I understand completely what I'm talking about it's why you backpedaled hard and tried to hand wave away savings. There are certain realities we have to accept. The poor is one of them. Causing rapid inflation isn't going to improve people's lives.

Support your claim that an increase in minimum wage would result in rapid inflation. Before you make shit up though, go look at the last 100 years of history of wage increases and see what impact wage increases have actually had on the cost of goods and services.

[Jeezy911]

A one size fits all solution to Minimum wage is incredibly stupid. You get to stay poor in NYC or lose your job to a robot/insolvency in Mississippi. Take your pick.

[Felya]

A one size fits all solution to Minimum wage is incredibly stupid. You get to stay poor in NYC or lose your job to a robot/insolvency in Mississippi. Take your pick.

How about you demand a pay cut to compensate?

[Fuiking]

More and more I read the upsides seem to way outweigh the downsides.

And if the downsides are there, you start to nibble away at the minimum wage increase by increasing taxes ... netherlands style.

[postman1782]

This minimum wage increase is a symbolic gesture at best.

If this truly was -enforced- it would have a hugely negative impact on small business owners and starting entrepreneurs.

Generally speaking people ignore regulations like this though and there is an endless amount of people who would "gladly" work for less than $5 an hour, even if illegal. (Actually even more so in countries with strong social welfare, because this often means it's quite profitable compared to working legally under high income taxes).

LOL, you actually think there are people, besides illegals that would gladly work for less than $5 an hour? I don't know what you are smoking, but you either need more or stop completely.

[postman1782]

It's why I wrote "gladly". Perhaps it's indeed not the right word, but people are lining up in droves whenever such job openings are made known at least.

Find me one fucking example. Because I guarantee there isn't a single person, besides maybe illegals, that are lining up for a job that pays only $5 an hour, that isn't something like babysitting for some 14 year old.

[Specialka]

It's why I wrote "gladly". Perhaps it's indeed not the right word, but people are lining up in droves whenever such job openings are made known at least, including children.

Maybe in your country, but in mine, you have something called RSA that guarantees you money (around 500 euros a months which is low but you can still buy food and stuff). So no, people are not lining up for such a low wage per hour.

On a regular basis, I hear people whining how they can't find people to work in manual labor job for low wages.

[postman1782]

Try it sometime.

That is the best advice I can offer, we're specifically talking about something that is illegal / an underground activity. Of course you won't find mainstream examples of it besides perhaps businesses / employees that get busted by tax services. It's just sadly the reality that there's a multitude of desperate people who would gladly earn a bit of extra money even if it's far below minimum wage.

AKA you can't find a single fucking example to back up your position, because you are lying. No one would willingly take $5 an hour, especially when they can get more even after taxes taken out.

[postman1782]

Unemployment money in my country is around ~1500 Euros / month. Social welfare is extremely strong and high in my country.
A lot of the people who line up for such jobs -are- people who receive unemployment money (or longterm sick leave) or other benefits. It's why I often have a good laugh too when US-based posters on this forum claim that "welfare queens" are a myth...

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If you're going to disregard a massive part of society, eg. the underground and illegal activities and everything that is borderline so, you'll never have a grasp of how things truly are.

My position is that you'll have tons of job applicants if you let it be known in the right circles that there are below minimum wage job offers. On what do you base your opinion that this isn't so? Do you have any personal experience with it?

Ah yes, the feelings over facts bullshit? Got it.

[Specialka]

Unemployment money in my country is around ~1500 Euros / month. Social welfare is extremely strong and high in my country.
A lot of the people who line up for such jobs -are- people who receive unemployment money (or longterm sick leave) or other benefits. It's why I often have a good laugh too when US-based posters on this forum claim that "welfare queens" are a myth...

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If you're going to disregard a massive part of society, eg. the underground and illegal activities and everything that is borderline so, you'll never have a grasp of how things truly are.

My position is that you'll have tons of job applicants if you let it be known in the right circles that there are below minimum wage job offers. On what do you base your opinion that this isn't so? Do you have any personal experience with it?

You are talking about unemployment money when I am talking about the RSA which is something you get after you ran out of rights to get unemployment money.

And even when you get the RSA, people are not rushing to get a minimum wage job.

[Specialka]

So you have no personal experience with the matter, but somehow feel you're right because you're sticking to academic and journalistic facts?
Hm, curious. So in your reality companies never ever get busted for paying employees below minimum wages? I mean, it don't even need to be companies, these kind of below minimum wage services are often even offered by field experts too (electricians, plumbers, engineers, architects) to individual customers because they gladly want to earn a bit of extra tax free money on the side.

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I strongly disagree with this. Try it some time, you'll not have a lack of finding people for below minimum wage shitty work.
And with "try it" I don't mean, engage in illegal activities, but try to put out an advertisement somewhere sometime to test how many responses you'd get. I think you'll be left surprised by how eagerly many people will be calling for more information on the job offering.

And yet we still have people saying they can't find people to do manual labor for cheap wages in rural areas or in factories doing night shift.

[postman1782]

So you have no personal experience with the matter, but somehow feel you're right because you're sticking to academic and journalistic facts?
Hm, curious. So in your reality companies never ever get busted for paying employees below minimum wages? I mean, it don't even need to be companies, these kind of below minimum wage services are often even offered by field experts too (electricians, plumbers, engineers, architects) to individual customers because they gladly want to earn a bit of extra tax free money on the side.

Sure thing bud, sure thing. Let me know when you get examples.

[postman1782]

Sure, but I imagine those are then "taxed" jobs and being sorted legally with all the necessary paperwork involved.
When done out of sight of the fiscus / tax collector, eg. illegally, you shouldn't have issues finding employees.

Still going with that feelings over facts bullshit? So sad.

[postman1782]

Sometimes it's better to go with reality, than with flawed facts.

You still didn't answer my question: According to you nobody ever gets caught paying or working below minimum wage?

Reality, that you can't provide. Again, there is no one, in the US, that isn't a US citizen, that is working for a company, below minimum wage, to dodge taxes. Because if they get hurt, they can't sue, or get workman's comp, or anything else without getting screwed by the IRS.

[postman1782]

I'm going to try to explain to you why relying on facts is in fact a flawed method of engaging with the world around you, and why there is merit in 'feelings'.

Do you understand what Crime is? Crime is when people break the law. What usually happens when people are found out breaking the law? They get punished.
What do people do to avoid getting caught? Making sure that there are no observable facts about them breaking the law.

When you base your entire opinions purely on facts and completely ignore a large part of society which actively tries to remain 'unseen', you're going to have a very flawed worldview.

Do you know who gets punished when someone is caught working below minimum wage? Rarely the employers, often the employees, for tax fraud, for not reporting income, etc. etc. Nobody is ever going to openly admit anywhere that they are working a below minimum wage job except perhaps after the facts. So let's see...

UK: estimated half a million people paid below minimum wage: https://www.theguardian.com/society/...um-wage-report

This is why 'centrists' often have such flawed views despite being 100% convinced they're sticking to the facts. Sticking to the facts and empiric evidence is meaningless when you're willingly blind to half of existing society.

Sure thing bud, keep going.

[Specialka]

Sure, but I imagine those are then "taxed" jobs and being sorted legally with all the necessary paperwork involved.
When done out of sight of the fiscus / tax collector, eg. illegally, you shouldn't have issues finding employees.

EDIT: This is pretty typical for countries or states with high income taxes.

Ah, did not see we were talking about "non taxed" job. We call that "travailler au noir" and in that case, you have very much quite a high population willing to do that because you can then work on a untaxed job and still have your unemployment money.

But you should stop saying it is mostly an issue for countries where income taxes are high, because it is far more complex than that.

[Elegiac]

Sometimes it's better to go with reality, than with flawed facts.

You still didn't answer my question: According to you nobody ever gets caught paying or working below minimum wage?

Oh look, a silly strawman.

This is as inane as claiming “we can’t give out public assistance because it will encourage people to abuse the system” and only providing “trust me, I totally saw the Welfare Queen in her cadillac” in the way of evidence.

Tfw the ostensible progressive is repeating Reaganite talking points, kek.

[Felya]

I know entire construction worker teams that could put down an entire skyscraper building with their combined expertise who are all welfare queens or on the dole, but also work more untaxed jobs on the side than the average underpaid worker. The idea that nobody would ever abuse the welfare system is just absurd. Does that mean it's a reason not to provide welfare: No, not at all.

Do they wear mink coats and jive in Cadillacs?

[Elegiac]

I know entire construction worker teams that could put down an entire skyscraper building with their combined expertise who are all welfare queens or on the dole

Which implies that the minimum wage is insufficient to live on without public assistance, not that "minimum wage just encourages people to work under the table".