Thrall's panel really shows how out of touch the writer's are with the Horde.

[Grazrug]

Those were not mind controlled.

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Thrall is the reason the Horde exists what are you on about.

The warlords of the past are the reason the Horde exist. Thrall is just a green human in the wrong faction. He should not lead any Horde race at all.

[geco]

Paladins can't accept evil or serve evil leaders. All true Horde paladins should strive for a more humane and peaceful future for our faction, like I indeed do.
IC I've never trusted Sylvanas and so joined the opposition as soon as such option was available, and in the past I heartily supported anti-Garrosh uprising when he lost his mind.

All the leaders who followed Sylvanas in the genocides must be overthrown.
What would they be? Everyone except Talanji and the Vulpera.
And Trall

[Kelduril]

The warlords of the past are the reason the Horde exist. Thrall is just a green human in the wrong faction. He should not lead any Horde race at all.

You mean those dudes who lost the war and got their people put in slave labor camps? Yeah, great warlords.

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It's simple. The burning of innocents who surrendered is too big a stain for the Horde.

The Horde did no such thing. Sylvanaas did.

my friends who were still playing WoW took it.

Good for them

[Grazrug]

You mean those dudes who lost the war and got their people put in slave labor camps? Yeah, great warlords.

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The Horde did no such thing. Sylvanaas did.



Good for them

They would have won the war against the alliance if some idiots would finally stop starting rebellions all the time. All the traitors of the Horde council should be executed for that. I spit on the Horde council and everything it stands for.

[geco]

The Horde did no such thing. Sylvanaas did.

Sylvanas gave the Order.
The Horde burned them and no one complained about it.
Sylvanas returned to the capital and no one complained about that.
The war started and nobody complained about it.
The Horde defended Sylvanas throughout the war and no one complained about it.
Sylvanas committed more attacks against Civilians and Nadise complained about it.
Sylvanas revived elves against his will and made them attack his siblings and no one complained about that. (Confirmed by the novel)

And nobody complained until they touch Jaina's brother.

When I say nobody I mean the Horde NPCs. The Players of the Horde did complain.

They would have won the war against the alliance if some idiots would finally stop starting rebellions all the time. All the traitors of the Horde council should be executed for that. I spit on the Horde council and everything it stands for.

Did you realize that at no point in BFA did the alliance fight 100%.
In fact, the Kaldorei never fought 100%.

[Kelduril]

Sylvanas gave the Order.
The Horde burned them and no one complained about it.

Oh okay so the Alliance is guilty of attempting to genocide the Blood Elves because Garithos gave the order.

Gotcha.

The war started and nobody complained about it.

The war was 100% justified. Genn Greymane tried to assassinate the Warchief and Anduin didn't do shit.

[geco]

Oh okay so the Alliance is guilty of attempting to genocide the Blood Elves because Garithos gave the order.

Yes. But the Garithos alliance.
Which would be like blaming the current Horde for what the W1 Horde did.

Now if Tyrande right now jumps with an army to assassinate everyone in Ogrimmar including the children.
Tyrande and all the Kaldorei Leaders would be guilty. Tyrande for doing it others for not stopping her.

Or a simpler example. When Anduin chose to attack the Zandalari instead of helping the Kaldorei. The Horde blames the Alliance for killing the Troll King. He doesn't say something like "it's just Anduin's fault" or "it's just Jaina's fault."

Soldiers or ordinary people may say that they only follow orders.

The war was 100% justified. Genn Greymane tried to assassinate the Warchief.

We agree. I would have loved that they had followed that Thread.
Let War Be Started by the Alliance. May Sylvanas burn Teldrazzil as revenge or a failed attempt to defend her own.
So we could tell that the Horde weren't being bad. Just being his way of being morally gray.

But Blizzard seems like they just want us to write like bloodshot monsters. Like Orcs without Honor who use Honor as an excuse not to die in the end.

[Powerogue]

I don't see the problem. That is Thrall's story, everything they're saying about it meshes with what we've seen in-game.

Some amusing highlights:
"Garrosh was also raised not a “real orc” because of the shame of his father, forced him to become the “Orc-iest of the Orcs, Orc all the time” (verbatim) which leads to problems because "if that goes unchecked a lot of bad things can happen"
RIP Garrosh, the Orciest Orc to ever Orc


"Cinematic team didn’t have the technology at the time, but when Grommash/Thrall have their last exchange, Grommash was burned “to a crisp” in felfire. It was a moment of fragility for Grommash."
Even so I think they did a fantastic job, the voice actor really pulled off that moment. One of the most memorable moments in WC3, for sure.

"Lore Team was created because Metzen basically didn’t trust his own brain lol (verbatim)"
Not surprised, lol. Isn't Falstad dead?

"“Tauren are the heart of the Horde, they really are. They are the moral compass of the Horde. I’m not biased or anything. /chuckles” -Golden"

I actually have no objections to that. They're the balanced voice of reason that helps bring everyone together, especially since Thrall stepped down. Contrast BFA and MOP for a moment with the blood elves. In MOP, they were ready to abandon the Horde in order to preserve themselves due to Garrosh, yet in BFA we see Lor'themar willing to aid in rescuing Baine, speaking very highly of him, and eventually even using their forces to help maintain order in the post-Sylvanas Horde. Baine, and the tauren in general, are a big part of what makes the Horde not just an allegiance of convenience, or a militarized dictatorship under a warchief, but people that care for each other.

If you think the writers' summaries of THEIR OWN writing are out of touch, have you considered you might be wrong?

[Kelduril]

Yes. But the Garithos alliance.

And that was the Sylvanas Horde.

[Ermelloth]

Tbh, don't forget that Garrosh got possessed by Sha of Pride, which eventually led to his corruption. In the start of Cata he wasn't like this at all. Do you remember "to be Horde" - Stonetalon questline ending? He punished genocidal warlord Krom'gar for committing atrocities in the area and spoke of morality and honor.

Again, writers did a poor job with him in MoP. They turned him to the darkside, though originally he wasn't there. Unless corrupted, he could remain a strong leader of the Horde. Only the future need to unite the factions could possibly explain why he was dealt with in such manner.

On the other hand, Sylvanas was always evil. Remember what she did to Kol'tira in Andorhal?

[geco]

And that was the Sylvanas Horde.

Yep. which is the WoW Horde. From Vanilla to now. That Horde was never disbanded.

While Grithos's literally included a couple of humans and some dwarves.
All human kingdoms were destroyed and they had no other allies.

Then another alliance was made in Stormwind. When Stormwind was rebuilt.

We can in any case blame the Dwarves... but I'm not sure which dwarves were following Garrithos.

PS: If today someone did the same as Garrithos and they were not punished, the alliance would be guilty.

It is more to give another example. When the Kaldorei engulfed the Broken Spear, both Tyrande and Malfurion can be blamed. I do not know if it comes higher because it is an event that we have little data. (Another good point to put gray weft that blizzard throws away). But in this case we do know that everyone knew what Sylvanas did and they all didn't care. And those are the ones who would have to react with something like that. They are not sweepers or spearmen.

[cparle87]

Here's the TL;DR list:
https://us.forums.blizzard.com/en/wo...nscript/877992

Some points I'd like to talk about:
Orcs:
Thrall is seen as a "Orc raised as a Human". So far, we were always under the assumption that the Orcs were tricked into the whole demon blood thing. Until Grommash told Thrall they took it voluntarily. One thing that WoD added was that their planet was full of life that tried to kill them. Even the rocks to the very plants were all carnivores. You can imagine what a brutal world that is, so the Orcs are "bloodthirsty" from nature. They were raised in a hostile world.

But then again, does that mean that Orcs can't thrive without conflict? Since Thrall was the only succesfull Orc on building a society that involves Orcs, but also Taurens and Trolls included. Does that mean Orcs are a lesser, dumber race?

Tauren:
Christie Golden said: "Taurens are the moral compass of the Horde". After she chuckled saying that she's not biased clearly. Okay, so Golden really does mean that the Horde is evil in its own. That Orcs, Undead, Trolls, Blood Elves, even Goblins and the Pandaren that joined under Garrosh' rule are all evil and that the Taurens act like their moral compass. Basically saying that the Tauren are what's keeping the Horde together, as they're just a bunch of ragtag goons, who can't stick together. (I'm also going to assume that there are no more Pandaren left but a handful, if what Golden says is true. No Pandaren would want to join a faction where only one race has a "moral compass")

They also stated that Cairne was the most influential friend Thrall had. How? What about Doomhammer and Drek'thar? What about them? Saurfang? Why Cairne? Why couldn't they have left Cairne to be inspirational for his no good son Baine?

Conclusion
I don't think this panel showed much what we didn't know already. They basically retold Thrall's storyline, then gave their own views on it. Views that weren't represented into the game at all. Yet they want the player to believe that what they say is true. Tauren's are supposed to be the moral compass of the Horde, yet all they do in game is be moral cowards. That is if we have to think that Baine represents the entirety of the Taurens, and God do I hope they do not think that.

Because all Baine did was not speak up when Sylvanas was blighting his own soldiers, raising them as skeletons afterwards. He did not speak up against the burning of Teldrassil. He only spoke out when Jaina was about the get hurt. If being a moral compass means running to the Alliance with your tail between your leg like some kind of traitor, then by all means turn the Taurens into bloodthirsty brutes aswell, since that's how Christie Golden sees the Horde.

Does being a moral compass mean that all you do is bow down to the Alliance and report to them whenever shit in your faction hits the fan? Does this mean that the Alliance is the morally good faction?

As for the Orcs, I don't know how you can save this race. It's basically made canon that Orcs are a race that are from a nature point, evil. They're bloodthirsty, without the demon blood. This has been established since WoD, where the Frostwolves are the only clan on "securing that beast within". While the other Orcs glorify their nature. (hence why frostwolves were the good guys)
And as for Thrall being the only reasonable leader that led them, it was all thanks to him being raised by humans.

So we can safely assume Orcs will always have some play as a villian role. Perhaps that the glorification of being brutish barbarians is over, considering the political statement some of the writers have made in the past about adressing toxic masculinity.

I don't think these writers are fit for the world of Warcraft. They have such a hard time depicting what they mean in the story itself, even though they're the ones making it. They come off as arrogant. They do not wish to build upon the lore and pretty much the foundation of what Metzen and other writers created. They instead want to tear it all down to install their own version and even some political statements.

This is just sad.

Why do people latch onto WoD and go "See, they're evil even without blood!" From the orcs' perspective they were launching pre-emptive attacks against entities they knew could annihilate them if they got momentum. The orcs remembered the draenei annihilating the Gorian capital when they had struggled for centuries about it. Garrosh filled them all in on the New Horde and the Alliance as these powerhouses who were hellbent on subjugating them.

[Thage]

It's not as if Baine challenging Sylvanas to a Mak'gora would have accomplished anything. Saurfang's own Mak'gora should have ended in vain, but that wouldn't have moved the plot forward so they had Sylvanas spill the beans on her own.

Cairne knew a one-on-one confrontation with Garrosh had a chance of succeeding.

At least in the context, Saurfang pissing Sylvanas off until she lost her temper and fucked herself over makes sense. It's the only reliably-written character trait she has other than rampant narcissism. She loses her temper easily when you know what buttons to push, and every time she loses her temper, she ends up sabotaging herself out of sheer petty sadism.

Baine didn't have the firsthand experience with Sylvanas Saurfang did. He didn't know what buttons to push to throw her off her game, he didn't know how to play her into getting what he wants. Baine's most reliable character trait is he's smart enough to know when he's in over his head, what he does with that knowledge is another matter entirely (he's just as often quick to be dumb enough to forge ahead regardless, like in the entirety of BFA, as he is to do the smart thing and put that knowledge to good use like when he acknowledged a mak'gora with Garrosh didn't serve anything but his grief).

[geco]

At least in the context, Saurfang pissing Sylvanas off until she lost her temper and fucked herself over makes sense. It's the only reliably-written character trait she has other than rampant narcissism. She loses her temper easily when you know what buttons to push, and every time she loses her temper, she ends up sabotaging herself out of sheer petty sadism.

Baine didn't have the firsthand experience with Sylvanas Saurfang did. He didn't know what buttons to push to throw her off her game, he didn't know how to play her into getting what he wants. Baine's most reliable character trait is he's smart enough to know when he's in over his head, what he does with that knowledge is another matter entirely (he's just as often quick to be dumb enough to forge ahead regardless, like in the entirety of BFA, as he is to do the smart thing and put that knowledge to good use like when he acknowledged a mak'gora with Garrosh didn't serve anything but his grief).

Under that logic, Well, it never should have been revealed about Jaina's brother.

[Thage]

Tbh, don't forget that Garrosh got possessed by Sha of Pride, which eventually led to his corruption. In the start of Cata he wasn't like this at all. Do you remember "to be Horde" - Stonetalon questline ending? He punished genocidal warlord Krom'gar for committing atrocities in the area and spoke of morality and honor.

Stonetalon was the exception, not the rule, and was the result of Afrasiabi disagreeing on his direction with the rest of the writing team. I'll see your Stonetalon and raise you the introduction to Twilight Highlands, where he nearly got the Horde's best soldiers slaughtered because he sent his air guard to do a run on the Alliance, which saw said air guard quickly wiped out, and did so on the Twilight's Hammer's front doorstep--only to apparently be surprised when the defenseless Horde airships were attacked by dragons loyal to Deathwing???

Garrosh was many things, but above all else he was a case study in how being quickly promoted above one's competence can quickly lead to everything going to hell, a lesson Blizzard themselves still have yet to learn in their corporate culture. It wasn't a matter of 'if' Garrosh was going to crack under the weight of his pride and the responsibilities he was neither qualified for nor prepared for, it was a matter of when, and he was already showing signs of cracking long before any Sha found a home in his skull and began influencing his behavior.

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Under that logic, Well, it never should have been revealed about Jaina's brother.

Can you expand on that? Do you mean, Sylvanas should never have shown Derek off to everyone else? Because I agree, but Sylvanas's character outside being a petty sadist who gets stupid when she loses her temper is highly inconsistent.

Do you mean, Baine wouldn't have delivered Derek to Jaina in an attempt to bring her around to helping him do something about the war before it hit the point of no return? I disagree, because that's entirely in keeping with Baine's established character (and Baine is, for better or worse, one of the more consistent characters in the modern era of WoW writing).

[geco]

Can you expand on that? Do you mean, Sylvanas should never have shown Derek off to everyone else? Because I agree, but Sylvanas's character outside being a petty sadist who gets stupid when she loses her temper is highly inconsistent.

Do you mean, Baine wouldn't have delivered Derek to Jaina in an attempt to bring her around to helping him do something about the war before it hit the point of no return? I disagree, because that's entirely in keeping with Baine's established character (and Baine is, for better or worse, one of the more consistent characters in the modern era of WoW writing).

Baien does not hand over Jaian's brother in an attempt to make an alliance against Sylvanas.
At no time do they show us that Baien has some kind of plan. Baien only acts because he thinks this is wrong.

According to your logic. Baien should be clever enough to know that revealing himself without a plan is bad idae.

Well he's a consistent pj. It is indifferent to Morals when it comes to putting it into practice and only acts when the Horde is between a rock and a hard place. Playing devil's advocate. More than in BFA it has a huge help of the script.

[Powerogue]

Garrosh was many things, but above all else he was a case study in how being quickly promoted above one's competence can quickly lead to everything going to hell, a lesson Blizzard themselves still have yet to learn in their corporate culture. It wasn't a matter of 'if' Garrosh was going to crack under the weight of his pride and the responsibilities he was neither qualified for nor prepared for, it was a matter of when, and he was already showing signs of cracking long before any Sha found a home in his skull and began influencing his behavior.

Exhibit A. Paraphrasing, "I'm so prideful I'd rather the whole Horde die to an old god than ever work with the Alliance!" Surprisingly prophetic, actually.

[Kelduril]

Yep. which is the WoW Horde. From Vanilla to now. That Horde was never disbanded.

The Warcraft 3 Alliance wasn't disbanded either. It just moved headquarters.

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If today someone did the same as Garrithos and they were not punished, the alliance would be guilty.

A certain furry king tried to assassinate the Warchief and did not even get yelled at.

[geco]

The Warcraft 3 Alliance wasn't disbanded either. It just moved headquarters.

Well if so. Although I don't think so.
I do not see that the Belfos have forgiven the alliance.

[Raisei]

another alliance fanatic sputing their stuff. Keept it coming guys. I write all your crap down on a list of awful people in the alliance community.

So saying the truth qualifies me as a fanatic? But sure keep writing it down, at least this way you will be writing facts for once.

Your faction is a bunch of spoiled children who always gets the favorite treatment from Blizzard. You answer just proved my point.

Remind me, which faction just got away with the planned mass-murder of a civilian population without so much as a friggin slap on the wrist? Oh right, the Horde. And from your previous posts we know you probably enjoyed it immensely.

So tell me, how does the "favourite treatment" keep including mass death on our side without ANY repercussions for the Horde? I would really like to know how that sounds logical in your head.

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If you think the writers' summaries of THEIR OWN writing are out of touch, have you considered you might be wrong?

Oh dear, you are saying the creators might know things better then Random Guy #13 on a forum?? Heresy!!! Damnation!