[TV] WandaVision

[TheramoreIsTheBomb]

so catchy

[ProphetFlume]

A better way of phrasing it is to use the Marvel canonical universe labelling. AoS isn't "the MCU", because the C in there is "cinematic", and AoS is on TV. So it's the "MTU", kind of thing. But both the MCU and MTU are part of the same Earth-199999 universe. Much the same way that a regular Fantastic Four comic and a Moon Knight comic might both take place in Earth-616 continuity, even if neither references the other and they have wildly different tones and graphical styles and so on.

AoS and the MCU are part of the same continuity. Canonically. We could argue if that maybe changed in the very last seasons, between the time jumps and all that; that may have shunted AoS out of Earth-199999 into a new separate universe, but until that first break in Season 5? Seasons 1-4? Absolutely continuous with the MCU universe, without real question.

It’s more like when someone else considers you a friend and you don’t feel likewise, but you let it go and don’t feel the need to outright state they’re not. The shows play in that sandbox but they’re not officially part of it according to the people (person) in charge of that universe and it’s been acknowledged as far back as by whedon during s1 of Aos that The studio doesn’t consider them canon. Now that feige is in charge of all of marvel the D+ shows are (obviously.)

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so catchy

It’s been cool to see that actress get to go nuts. I loved whenever she showed up in parks and rec.

[Krunxx]

so catchy

Yeah. This song is stuck in my head. Can't wait until the new episode on Friday.

[rhorle]

Except it isn’t. Every single person who fought Thanos was labeled an Avenger the second Cap said the infamous line in Endgame. Avengers are heroes who fight to protect the Earth from annihilation. Hell, most of the “Avengers” we recognize never officially joined anything. They’re simply known as Avengers because they are willing to come together to defeat threats they can’t defeat alone. Trust me, she counts from the second she got her powers.

So by your very words there is no Avenger in Wandavision because they haven't come together with other Super Heroes yet. Nor is she currently fighting to protect the Earth from Annihilation. Again not every super hero that is "good" is automatically an Avenger. The people that came together to fight Thanos did so under the Avengers so they were temporarily part of the Avengers.

[Evil Midnight Bomber]

She’s an avenger level hero and will be one during this series. They have three of those on site, any more an it may as well be an Avengers movie.

"Avenger-level hero" is a meaningless phrase. Avenger level Heroes range anywhere between Hawkeye and Black Widow to Thor and Captain Marvel. And you literally said:

We have an Avenger intervening. Her name is Monica.

Again, Monica is not an Avenger. She will very likely be an Avenger sometime in the not-so-distant future...but she is not one now.

He said heroes. Hence my response.

They weren't "heroes" in the first 2/3 of the movie, either. First, They were HYDRA Assets and then they were working for Ultron. Takes a real long time for them to figure out that they are on the wrong side of things. It's debatable if Quicksilver was ever an actual Avenger. Wanda gets the "You walk out that door...you're an Avenger" Speech from Hawkeye and she's in the new team lineup at the end of the film. Pietro gets killed before any official Avenger status is bestowed upon him.

Yes, he was. From the writer’s PoV. Which is where I’m looking at it from. Just like Captain America was an Avenger in WW2 before the Avengers were even a thing.

No, he wasn't. It's an Origin Movie. The writer is writing a movie about a guy that eventually becomes an Avenger...but is not one yet. Because, Again, at that point, the Avengers do not exist.

Even in Captain America...the only time the word "Avenger" is ever used is in the title.

Official MCU lore...the term "Avenger Initiative" comes from Carol Danvers Call-sign.

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I can agree with most of this minus the Steve Rogers part. His first movie is literally titled Captain America: The First Avenger.

And at what point in the movie is he actually an Avenger? Official MCU Lore...the idea of the Avengers doesn't even exist until the 90's.

Steve's team in that movie were the Howling Commandos.

[Endus]

No, he wasn't. It's an Origin Movie. The writer is writing a movie about a guy that eventually becomes an Avenger...but is not one yet. Because, Again, at that point, the Avengers do not exist.

Even in Captain America...the only time the word "Avenger" is ever used is in the title.

Official MCU lore...the term "Avenger Initiative" comes from Carol Danvers Call-sign.

This is where a concept like "diegetic" can be useful. It's usually used in reference to sound; a musical score that the characters in a film don't hear is non-diegetic; the audience hears it, but it doesn't exist within the narrative itself to be experience by the characters. If a character hits "play" on their Walkman and the music starts pumping, though, that's diegetic; the music exists within and is experienced by the characters in the film.

In this case, the title of the first Cap film is non-diegetic. It's a signal to the audience, from writers who know they're building up to an Avengers film. It isn't a concept that exists anywhere within the actual narrative of the film in any way whatsoever.

Cap will be the first Avenger, and this is his origin story. But he is not an Avenger at any actual point in this chapter of his story.

[ProphetFlume]

This is where a concept like "diegetic" can be useful. It's usually used in reference to sound; a musical score that the characters in a film don't hear is non-diegetic; the audience hears it, but it doesn't exist within the narrative itself to be experience by the characters. If a character hits "play" on their Walkman and the music starts pumping, though, that's diegetic; the music exists within and is experienced by the characters in the film.

In this case, the title of the first Cap film is non-diegetic. It's a signal to the audience, from writers who know they're building up to an Avengers film. It isn't a concept that exists anywhere within the actual narrative of the film in any way whatsoever.

Cap will be the first Avenger, and this is his origin story. But he is not an Avenger at any actual point in this chapter of his story.

I mean, yeah, I think we all agree to that? Like the difference between what the writer has the character do and why the character chooses to do it.

Same kinda reasoning for the shows not being part of the mcu - they’re all business reasons outside of the content in the shows.

I’d be ok with more daredevil though. Cox was perfect. JJ as well. Luke cage and punisher were fine too I just didn’t really care about seeing more of them.

[rhorle]

And at what point in the movie is he actually an Avenger? Official MCU Lore...the idea of the Avengers doesn't even exist until the 90's.

To be fair though the last scene of the movie is Steve and Fury shaking hands. So he essentially becomes an Avenger there even if the protocol isn't officially reactivated until the next movie (which was the first Avengers).

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Nope. There are at least 2. Have you been watching the show at all? It has these two people named Wanda and Vision in it... and Monica is a phase 4 Avenger, so they have 3. No need for more.

Vision is considered dead and not an active Avenger. Sword is actively hunting and trying to stop Wanda so she wouldn't be an Avenger on site either. Monica is not an Avenger at all and just discovered her powers. Have you actually been watching the show? None of them are referred to as Avengers. Stop trying to call every single super hero that is, or once, was a good guy an Avenger.

It is clear why they haven't been called in. Because Sword and Shield didn't call the Avengers for every little problem. Eventually though when they grow big enough they call in the Avenger team to deal with it. Sort of like how Jimmy Woo called in Sword to help out with an oddity instead of the FBI going directly to the Avengers.

[Ophenia]

We have an Avenger intervening. Her name is Monica.

Ok by that logic, this Quicksilver (even if he's not Wanda's brother) and Agatha are Avengers. And Mordo is an Avenger as well. Well well well, that's an awful lot of Avengers in MCU !

Do Stark, Hawkeye and Black Widow even qualify as Avengers for you ? They don't have any superpower and that seems to be the only prerequisite for that.

[Evil Midnight Bomber]

To be fair though the last scene of the movie is Steve and Fury shaking hands. So he essentially becomes an Avenger there even if the protocol isn't officially reactivated until the next movie (which was the first Avengers).

Not even then. The Avengers Initiative was a scrapped project by the time Steve Shows up.

They don't become the Avengers until Coulson dies. That's what binds them together.

[ProphetFlume]

I regret opening this can tbh.

It did make me think of things in terms of Avengers and ends of phases. We have a lot of movies and shows announced so far in phase 4 but no hint of a team movie. Feige said they were going to move on from avengers after Endgame, which most people just assumed he meant the characters, or that the new team movie would be called New Avengers or w/e. I wonder what the plan is in that regard.

[rhorle]

Not even then. The Avengers Initiative was a scrapped project by the time Steve Shows up.

Fury was obviously making plans because you don't go from "nothing" to "lets reactivate and here is the team I want" in a matter of months. The Avenger initiative was reactivated a few months after Steve woke up when Loki started the invasion of earth. For all intents and purposes Steve was the first avenger recruited by Fury.

[Endus]

It is clear why they haven't been called in. Because Sword and Shield didn't call the Avengers for every little problem. Eventually though when they grow big enough they call in the Avenger team to deal with it. Sort of like how Jimmy Woo called in Sword to help out with an oddity instead of the FBI going directly to the Avengers.

Something that really hasn't been talked about in-universe; the Avengers are essentially WMDs. Super destructive, and the risk of collateral damage is huge. You don't call the Avengers in to deal with a minor domestic issue for the same reason you don't respond to gang activity in a city by blowing up their central base with a small thermonuclear device. It'd be effective, but so far beyond overkill.

The Avengers are a last-resort option for when such force is necessary if the Earth is gonna survive. That's why the four times they've canonically been brought together involved three separate alien invasions bent on destroying the Earth, and Ultron, who was going to use a massive bit of Sokovia to shatter the Earth's crust and destroy all humanity.

What Wanda's doing is just harming one small town. That's bad, but it's not Avengers-level bad. The last thing they'd want to do is push Wanda, or whoever's responsible, into charging up the 10,000 inhabitants into heavily-armed mindless soldier drones and then throwing them at the opposition, forcing the Avengers (or whoever) to kill those innocent people. We can see how easy it'd be for Wanda to do that in how casually she seizes control of Hayward's own troops, getting them to aim on him instead of her. That was like 12 guys. Imagine thousands. Especially if she takes a "come and get us" approach and bunkers down, where she can twist reality freely.

[Evil Midnight Bomber]

Fury was obviously making plans because you don't go from "nothing" to "lets reactivate and here is the team I want" in a matter of months. The Avenger initiative was reactivated a few months after Steve woke up when Loki started the invasion of earth. For all intents and purposes Steve was the first avenger recruited by Fury.

I'm not saying Fury doesn't recruit Steve. I'm saying he doesn't recruit Steve until he shows up in the gym...which is in The Avengers. A handshake five minutes after Steve wakes up isn't really "recruiting". At that point, Fury wouldn't know enough about Cap's Mental State to put him on the team. Remember, they were trying to ease Steve into the idea that he had been sleeping for 70ish years.

Fury probably was always intending to bring the Avengers in when he needed them... But they still only existed as a concept.

[rhorle]

I'm not saying Fury doesn't recruit Steve. I'm saying he doesn't recruit Steve until he shows up in the gym...which is in The Avengers. Fury probably was always intending to bring the Avengers in when he needed them... But they still only existed as a concept.

Steve was already working with Fury and Shield. He is given a mission by fury and not recruited by fury. You can technically say he was recruited for that specific mission/initiative but that is a game of semantics. Steve was the first Avenger recruited by Fury at the end of the origin movie. He also says there is a debriefing packet in his apartment at the end of the gym scene. So he may not have been on a mission but he was in some sort of active relationship with Shield.

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Once again, the biggest issue is Hayward. He hates people with powers so regardless of the level of threat he isn’t calling them in.

But doesn't that defeat your own argument? Why would he need to call anyone in if there is already two Avengers on scene?

[Evil Midnight Bomber]

Steve was already working with Fury and Shield. He is given a mission by fury and not recruited by fury. You can technically say he was recruited for that specific mission/initiative but that is a game of semantics. Steve was the first Avenger recruited by Fury at the end of the origin movie. He also says there is a debriefing packet in his apartment at the end of the gym scene. So he may not have been on a mission but he was in some sort of active relationship with Shield.

Again, I'm not saying he wasn't recruited by Fury...just that he wasn't recruited by Fury at the end of the First Avenger. Steve may have been on SHIELD's Roster as an asset...but he wasn't an Avenger. Every indication is that the mission Fury sends him on is his first assignment for SHIELD...and it's certainly the first Assignment he's sent out as Captain America.

Again, at the end of TFA...Steve has been awake for about 5 minutes. He'd need to go under a psychiatric evaluation before he was even offered a job at SHIELD.

[rhorle]

Again, at the end of TFA...Steve has been awake for about 5 minutes. He'd need to go under a psychiatric evaluation before he was even offered a job at SHIELD.

But he was still offered a job by Fury at the end of CA:TFA. Which for all intents and purposes is recruitment. The gym scene wasn't a recruitment but is where Fury gave him a mission. Fury also states at the end of the movie that the scientists thought a period-era room was better for Steve to get used to the new idea. That clearly didn't work so Fury gave another approach. The truth and a job.

[rhorle]

That scene takes place after he already has Black Widow and Hawkeye working for him. Steve being the first Avenger is his work in WW2, not him being offered a job at the end of the movie.

Once again being a super hero doesn't make you an Avenger. The Avengers is a specific team created by fury/shield to protect the planet and later it morphed into its own distinct thing. The recruitment of Steve is likely the point where Fury started work to create the new Avengers and Steve was the first person on that new team. It also is what likely helped fury get the support by having a hero like Captain America on his side since we know from the various films and stuff that shield is often filled with politics.

[Evil Midnight Bomber]

But he was still offered a job by Fury at the end of CA:TFA. Which for all intents and purposes is recruitment. The gym scene wasn't a recruitment but is where Fury gave him a mission. Fury also states at the end of the movie that the scientists thought a period-era room was better for Steve to get used to the new idea. That clearly didn't work so Fury gave another approach. The truth and a job.

He wasn't offered a job as an Avenger. Because there were no Avengers.

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That scene takes place after he already has Black Widow and Hawkeye working for him. Steve being the first Avenger is his work in WW2, not him being offered a job at the end of the movie.

No, Steve's work in WW2 was as a Howling Commando. The Avengers don't even exist as a concept in WW2.

Black Widow and Hawkeye were both SHIELD Agents...not Avengers. They were Spies...not Super Heroes. BW even says so when she's talking to Clint...they were never trained for this.

[rhorle]

He wasn't offered a job as an Avenger. Because there were no Avengers.

Maybe that is why he was the first avenger? Because he was the first superhero recruit by Fury in his attempt to reactivate the Avenger protocol/initiative.