Lost Codex and Bellular Lore Interview. [Spoilers]

[Houle]

I don't know what's up with the writers and Ner'zhul. Ever since Chronicle he's been dicked again and again. I half-expected Danuser to turn to stone like a vampire upon being reminded Ner'zhul exists. And it's not just him, this started since Warlords when Metzen was still around or hell, even Wrath had him bumped off of-screen so Arthas can be the only Lich King. What did Ner'zhul ever do to you?

He is guilty of being a mortal master-manipulator, whose name isnt Sylvanas, and of being a previous LK whose name isnt Arthas.
Those are the worst sins imaginable in the eyes of the writers.
Therefore, they have made it their mission to either fully ignore, or stomp him in the dirt, every chance they get.

Danuser and Bellular need to learn how to differentiate from Arthas as a DK and Arthas as the Lich King. DK Arthas was under Ner'zhul's control, why would this even be brought up when discussing Zovaal??

Also Danuser saying it's not a shade or echo needs to go back and watch all the evil undead dude's die who expressed relief and gratitude.

Starting to not like this expansion, at least in the lore. They sweep under the rug how important Ner'zhul was to the existence of the Lich King and keep bringing up how Zovaal tried to control them, basically ignoring the whole story that was Ner'zhul rebelling against the Legion.

as many others have already realized, blizz hates ner'zhul. zovaal is just yet another way to further erase the characters previous importance in the lore.
funny enough, by adding zovaal, they turned LK, their most famous villain, into a glorified errand boy.

[TheFirstOnes]

They are the ones who came first.


The first......... ones.




When was this established?

Probably when Blizzard confirmed there was a Cosmic Hierachy? As in, the First Ones made everything, then the Cosmic Pantheons came to carry out the designs of the First Ones, etc?

- - - Updated - - -

He is guilty of being a mortal master-manipulator, whose name isnt Sylvanas, and of being a previous LK whose name isnt Arthas.
Those are the worst sins imaginable in the eyes of the writers.
Therefore, they have made it their mission to either fully ignore, or stomp him in the dirt, every chance they get.



as many others have already realized, blizz hates ner'zhul. zovaal is just yet another way to further erase the characters previous importance in the lore.
funny enough, by adding zovaal, they turned LK, their most famous villain, into a glorified errand boy.

Actually, Ner'Zhul and Arthas betrayed the Legion and Zovaal. So, in a sense, that actually amps Ner'Zhul's manipulation up a ton. Also would explain why he'd be trapped in the Sanctum of Domination. Poor guy, tortured by KJ, and now tortured by the most evil and sadistic mother fucker in the Cosmos.

[fakaroonie]

Obviously the First Ones came from another Universe that was dying, and created the cosmic forces in ours. And yeah there are an infinite number of Universes in WoW, but we will get to explore them all.

[TheFirstOnes]

Obviously the First Ones came from another Universe that was dying, and created the cosmic forces in ours. And yeah there are an infinite number of Universes in WoW, but we will get to explore them all.

There is 1 true timeline. Also, that's just speculation. We don't know what the First Ones actually are.

[KOUNTERPARTS]

Probably when Blizzard confirmed there was a Cosmic Hierachy? As in, the First Ones made everything, then the Cosmic Pantheons came to carry out the designs of the First Ones, etc?

"Probably"? I'm asking for the source of your claim, as you are presenting it as fact.


So what you mean is they are probably extensions of the First Ones.


As it's speculation, I am going to disagree. I feel like if the First Ones "crafted the cosmos" then they left the universe to its own devices. But until more is revealed, who really knows.

Obviously the First Ones came from another Universe that was dying, and created the cosmic forces in ours. And yeah there are an infinite number of Universes in WoW, but we will get to explore them all.

Isn't that StarCraft's lore with the Xel'Naga, lmao

[Selastan]

Obviously the First Ones came from another Universe that was dying, and created the cosmic forces in ours. And yeah there are an infinite number of Universes in WoW, but we will get to explore them all.

Or...time travel. The First Ones created the universe so that they would eventually be born inside it, then they travel back to create it again.

[TheFirstOnes]

"Probably"? I'm asking for the source of your claim, as you are presenting it as fact.


So what you mean is they are probably extensions of the First Ones.


As it's speculation, I am going to disagree. I feel like if the First Ones "crafted the cosmos" then they left the universe to its own devices. But until more is revealed, who really knows.




Isn't that StarCraft's lore with the Xel'Naga, lmao

I used "probably" as a figure of speech. The source of my claim is found within Oribos, the Arbiter, and the Pantheon of Death, and how their entire mission and existence is to safeguard the Shadowlands, and the design of the First Ones. Hell, it's even stated that if the Arbiter falls, everything the First Ones had designed would've been for naught.

The Titans, the Void Lords, etc are that exact same way, but for their own cosmic powers and respective realms.

"I feel like if the First Ones "crafted the cosmos" then they left the universe to its own devices. But until more is revealed, who really knows." They cannot be true, since they made the Arbiter and other factors to keep the Cosmos in check, and the other Pantheons came to be to keep the First Ones' design in balance, therefore being "extensions" of theirs, since they're continuing what the First Ones made. Nothing implies they just left it or anything. They're probably fucking around us right now or some shit. We don't know.
Also, watch the fucking interview OP linked. Steve talks about how the First Ones are the level above the Cosmic Pantheons. Hell, in other interviews, it's stated that the First Ones are linked with Cosmic Pantheons such as the Titans and Eternal Ones. Only further backs my claim.

And since you have no proof of your disagreements outside of personal feelings, and since I actually have proof of my claims, here you go: https://www.wowhead.com/news=316807/...ser-elune-sylv

"So I don't want to spoil too much right now, but I will say that they are tied into the other Pantheons we have seen before like the Titans, and going through the Shadowlands, you will meet the Pantheon of Death, which are the leaders of these Covenants: The Winter Queen, The Archon, those kinds of figures, and they certainly have knowledge on the First Ones, but what they have to share… we’ll just have to wait and see.

To say the Cosmic Pantheons are extensions of their all powerful authority is not at all a reach, and while it is a speculation, if is pretty backed up, even if the First Ones are a little iffy. Especially since Steve confirmed that: A. The First Ones are connected/tied with the other Cosmic Pantheons, and B. They're the level above the Cosmic Pantheons.

[Nagawithlegs]

Where did "old loreheads" think the Titans came from? And did they think that Elune was just a magic moon?

[TheFirstOnes]

Or...time travel. The First Ones created the universe so that they would eventually be born inside it, then they travel back to create it again.

Or...the First Ones could represent nothing, everything, they created platonic concepts such as laws and shit like that, etc.

They don't have to be from the future gone back to the past or anything like that. They could just be the top of the Cosmic Hierarchy.

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Where did "old loreheads" think the Titans came from? And did they think that Elune was just a magic moon?

Well, if you actually paid attention to old lore, the original assumption was that the Titans created everything, or something like that. And that Elune was, while her own thing, probably not as powerful. The Old Gods were also stated to be pretty fucking powerful in old lore too, but literally 90% of the old lore doesn't matter anymore, since the Titans aren't as all mighty as we once thought. Yes, they are "all powerful", but they're not the top of the food chain. They're comparable to the other Cosmic Pantheons.

[Selastan]

Or...the First Ones could represent nothing, everything, they created platonic concepts such as laws and shit like that, etc.

They don't have to be from the future gone back to the past or anything like that. They could just be the top of the Cosmic Hierarchy.

True, but that isn't Blizzard's style. They don't do metaphysical cosmology like that. Everything is a physical and/or biological being in its own universe.

[Darknessvamp]

Chronicle and it's establishing cosmic lore with a foundation was a damned mistake. I firmly believe it's just asspulls from here on.

[TheFirstOnes]

True, but that isn't Blizzard's style. They don't do metaphysical cosmology like that. Everything is a physical and/or biological being in its own universe.

Of course they do, that's why, despite there being Cosmic Pantheons, Cosmic Forces exist to keep things steady. Things are both metaphysical and physical. Conceptual, abstract, but also real, and tangible. It's a perfect balance.

To assume the First Ones may have a physical form, but exist as metaphysical or something even beyond that is certainly not impossible to believe. Hell, I daresay it's possible, especially if Elune's a First One. Elune's been Metaphysical in presence and being since Classic. Hell, even the Titans and Eternal Ones share Metaphysical forms. But that's it.

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Chronicle and it's establishing cosmic lore with a foundation was a damned mistake. I firmly believe it's just asspulls from here on.

All Chronicle did was set up the starting point of the Warcraft Cosmos. It gave us a run down of the Cosmic Forces and what their roles were within the verse of Warcraft. That's it. The Cosmos was bound to be expanded upon at some point.

[KOUNTERPARTS]

I used "probably" as a figure of speech. The source of my claim is found within Oribos, the Arbiter, and the Pantheon of Death, and how their entire mission and existence is to safeguard the Shadowlands, and the design of the First Ones. Hell, it's even stated that if the Arbiter falls, everything the First Ones had designed would've been for naught.

The Titans, the Void Lords, etc are that exact same way, but for their own cosmic powers and respective realms.

"I feel like if the First Ones "crafted the cosmos" then they left the universe to its own devices. But until more is revealed, who really knows." They cannot be true, since they made the Arbiter and other factors to keep the Cosmos in check, and the other Pantheons came to be to keep the First Ones' design in balance, therefore being "extensions" of theirs, since they're continuing what the First Ones made. Nothing implies they just left it or anything. They're probably fucking around us right now or some shit. We don't know.
Also, watch the fucking interview OP linked. Steve talks about how the First Ones are the level above the Cosmic Pantheons. Hell, in other interviews, it's stated that the First Ones are linked with Cosmic Pantheons such as the Titans and Eternal Ones. Only further backs my claim.

And since you have no proof of your disagreements outside of personal feelings, and since I actually have proof of my claims, here you go: https://www.wowhead.com/news=316807/...ser-elune-sylv

"So I don't want to spoil too much right now, but I will say that they are tied into the other Pantheons we have seen before like the Titans, and going through the Shadowlands, you will meet the Pantheon of Death, which are the leaders of these Covenants: The Winter Queen, The Archon, those kinds of figures, and they certainly have knowledge on the First Ones, but what they have to share… we’ll just have to wait and see.

To say the Cosmic Pantheons are extensions of their all powerful authority is not at all a reach, and while it is a speculation, if is pretty backed up, even if the First Ones are a little iffy. Especially since Steve confirmed that: A. The First Ones are connected/tied with the other Cosmic Pantheons, and B. They're the level above the Cosmic Pantheons.

Yeah that's nice and all, yet everything you linked and posted there is still no confirmation of your "claims" yet you say the contrary.


If you want to change your stance to "it's almost 99.9% confirmed" then do that. Until it's actually confirmed, stop saying it's confirmed. It's speculation.


Especially if you are going to outright dismiss other poster's speculation as false, and back it up with your own yet-to-be-confirmed speculation. Everybody is speculating.


So to quote something yourself again:

and while it is a speculation

Yes, we know. Do you?

[TheFirstOnes]

Think of the Titan lore on Azeroth as First Grade math. It's simple, swift, and easy to get. Think of the Chronicle as 6th grade math. It's harder to get, sure, but the principles are there still, and things are now being set up extra.

Now, think of Shadowlands as Geometry. You're expanding upon what's already been established, things are harder to get now, and shit's being expanded upon even further, AND ON TOP OF THAT, you're combining lessons and set ups, and exploring things such as shapes more to get a better understanding of the solution and what it means.

It's literally the same thing.

[StationaryHawk]

Where did "old loreheads" think the Titans came from? And did they think that Elune was just a magic moon?

Titans didn't need a creator. That they were born from world-souls that manifested within planets was enough. This was a magical universe created from the clash of magical forces that caused a magical explosion.

If the titans must have been created by greater beings, then who created the First Ones? Who created their creators? It's the exact problem that the "turtles all the way down" expression illustrates.

Think of the Titan lore on Azeroth as First Grade math. It's simple, swift, and easy to get. Think of the Chronicle as 6th grade math. It's harder to get, sure, but the principles are there still, and things are now being set up extra.

Now, think of Shadowlands as Geometry. You're expanding upon what's already been established, things are harder to get now, and shit's being expanded upon even further, AND ON TOP OF THAT, you're combining lessons and set ups, and exploring things such as shapes more to get a better understanding of the solution and what it means.

It's literally the same thing.

This is simply not true. Shadowlands is not just expanding on the lore. It's changing it, with the excuse that what we know now is from the "titan's perspective".

[TheFirstOnes]

Yeah that's nice and all, yet in everything you link and posted there is still no confirmation of your "claims" yet you say the contrary.


It's speculation. Stop arguing saying it's confirmed when it's not. Especially if you are going to outright dismiss other poster's speculation as false, and back it up with your own yet-to-be-confirmed speculation. Everybody is speculating.





Yes, we know.

To argue a theory that the Cosmic Pantheons are extensions of the First Ones by using direct confirmation that the First Ones are linked with the Cosmic Pantheons, as well as the level above them is most definitely not "contrary" or "not evidential".

"Stop arguing saying it's confirmed when it's not" No one here is arguing about it being confirmed. I'm claiming that the Cosmic Pantheons are extensions of the First Ones' design, and I have given solid evidence that this is possibly the case. I'll bring up more evidence if you want, but I have yet to see proof of your claims, stating that the Cosmic Pantheons are in fact NOT carrying out the First Ones' designs.

Being an extension of the First Ones doesn't automatically mean you have to be made by them (Tho, I'll argue that everything in Warcraft is made by the First Ones, and that actually includes the Cosmic Pantheons), as it could just simply mean you're trying to keep the Cosmos in balance. The Titans carrying out order, or us defending the Shadowlands against the Jailer are actually good examples of carrying out the First Ones' design, especially if you want to argue that the First Ones created the Cosmos and set up the Cosmic Chart, which would only further my theory more that the Cosmic Pantheons exist to expand upon their purpose.

[Darknessvamp]

All Chronicle did was set up the starting point of the Warcraft Cosmos. It gave us a run down of the Cosmic Forces and what their roles were within the verse of Warcraft. That's it. The Cosmos was bound to be expanded upon at some point.

That's my point. We knew there was Light, Void, Life, Death, Arcane, Creation, Destruction, Fel, Fire, Water and on and on and on as cosmic or central elements to the universe of WoW then Chronicle came along and shifted everything into a set universe with a foundation and some forces having specific structures and hierarchies within hierarchies which they stated everything was built on and it was 'fine' when we had only the Titans and Burning Crusade (which is intrinsically linked in creation to the Titans) as the only ones established in that way. But now everything is starting to follow that format, we need leaders of death? Asspull a pantheon that has always existed. Leaders for all other cosmic forces? Yep same thing no individual systems or discrepancies within those forces just hint that all cosmic things have Pantheon-esque controllers. We need something greater, sure just name drop an addition to the hierarchy that totally existed before all this and had a hand in everything, it totally existed in our minds all along and isn't turning up in the expansion characterised by asspulls because it is just another one. Do they all need to be connected? Sure can be, just relate back to that foundation created in Chronicle and by saying it was already here but then immediately degrade said source by stating it's biased but we're still using it anyway.

As I said a Mistake.

[TheFirstOnes]

Titans didn't need a creator. That they were born from world-souls that manifested within planets was enough. This was a magical universe created from the clash of magical forces that caused a magical explosion.

If the titans must have been created by greater beings, then who created the First Ones? Who created their creators? It's the exact problem that the "turtles all the way down" expression illustrates.

This is simply not true. Shadowlands is not just expanding on the lore. It's changing it, with the excuse that what we know now is from the "titan's perspective".

It is true. Just because you think something is a retcon, that doesn't mean it is. Chronicle showed us very little of the actual Warcraft cosmos outside of the Order and Disorder shit, as well as the basics, such as the Cosmic Chart and what the Forces represent. We don't know how Light and Void came to be, we never knew anything about Life and Death, and we didn't know shit about how the laws of the Universe came to be, unless we're to assume fuckin Light and Shadow made GRAVITY, or STABILITY, despite the forces clearly being shown not to have anything to do with stability, creation, and whatnot. You could argue Light and Shadow maybe made Galaxies and stars, Black Holes, etc. But not fuckin Titans, or shit that's got nothing to do with Light and Shadow whatsoever.

So, no. SL is expanding upon the cosmology of WoW. I'd argue it's actually doing a better job at explaining the Warcraft Cosmology than Chronicle, which only gave us a set number of rules and a basis, and nothing more.

[KOUNTERPARTS]

To argue a theory that the Cosmic Pantheons are extensions of the First Ones by using direct confirmation that the First Ones are linked with the Cosmic Pantheons, as well as the level above them is most definitely not "contrary" or "not evidential".

"Stop arguing saying it's confirmed when it's not" No one here is arguing about it being confirmed. I'm claiming that the Cosmic Pantheons are extensions of the First Ones' design, and I have given solid evidence that this is possibly the case. I'll bring up more evidence if you want, but I have yet to see proof of your claims, stating that the Cosmic Pantheons are in fact NOT carrying out the First Ones' designs.

Being an extension of the First Ones doesn't automatically mean you have to be made by them (Tho, I'll argue that everything in Warcraft is made by the First Ones, and that actually includes the Cosmic Pantheons), as it could just simply mean you're trying to keep the Cosmos in balance. The Titans carrying out order, or us defending the Shadowlands against the Jailer are actually good examples of carrying out the First Ones' design, especially if you want to argue that the First Ones created the Cosmos and set up the Cosmic Chart, which would only further my theory more that the Cosmic Pantheons exist to expand upon their purpose.

"Stop arguing saying it's confirmed when it's not" No one here is arguing about it being confirmed. I'm claiming that the Cosmic Pantheons are extensions of the First Ones' design, and I have given solid evidence that this is possibly the case.

Please read before you post things.

I'll bring up more evidence if you want, but I have yet to see proof of your claims, stating that the Cosmic Pantheons are in fact NOT carrying out the First Ones' designs.

I don't need evidence for an argument I'm not making.


My argument is that all of your "theories" are not confirmed by the lore itself, and that you need to stop passing off your theories as fact. All of your evidence to support your theory means absolute dick when 1.> it's not confirmed by the source, and the most important on, 2.> you dismiss other people's speculation as false and push yours as fact.


Get with the fucking program.

[TheFirstOnes]

That's my point. We knew there was Light, Void, Life, Death, Arcane, Creation, Destruction, Fel, Fire, Water and on and on and on as cosmic or central elements to the universe of WoW then Chronicle came along and shifted everything into a set universe with a foundation and some forces having specific structures and hierarchies within hierarchies which they stated everything was built on and it was 'fine' when we had only the Titans and Burning Crusade (which is intrinsically linked in creation to the Titans) as the only ones established in that way. But now everything is starting to follow that format, we need leaders of death? Asspull a pantheon that has always existed. Leaders for all other cosmic forces? Yep same thing no individual systems or discrepancies within those forces just hint that all cosmic things have Pantheon-esque controllers. We need something greater, sure just name drop an addition to the hierarchy that totally existed before all this and had a hand in everything, it totally existed in our minds all along and isn't turning up in the expansion characterised by asspulls because it is just another one. Do they all need to be connected? Sure can be, just relate back to that foundation created in Chronicle and by saying it was already here but then immediately degrade said source by stating it's biased but we're still using it anyway.

As I said a Mistake.

Why can't every Cosmic force have a leadership? Why must every cosmic power be leaderless, huh? Do you think Life and Death should be leaderless? Do you think the afterlives for mortals should be without a structure? Should every cosmic force be leaderless like Disorder? Have them all be chaotic?

No. There HAS to be a leadership involved, even if it's a Pantheon. I'd argue Cosmic Pantheons are better overall for the cosmic narrative of WoW.