Lost Codex and Bellular Lore Interview. [Spoilers]

[StationaryHawk]

It is true. Just because you think something is a retcon, that doesn't mean it is. Chronicle showed us very little of the actual Warcraft cosmos outside of the Order and Disorder shit, as well as the basics, such as the Cosmic Chart and what the Forces represent. We don't know how Light and Void came to be, we never knew anything about Life and Death, and we didn't know shit about how the laws of the Universe came to be, unless we're to assume fuckin Light and Shadow made GRAVITY, or STABILITY, despite the forces clearly being shown not to have anything to do with stability, creation, and whatnot. You could argue Light and Shadow maybe made Galaxies and stars, Black Holes, etc. But not fuckin Titans, or shit that's got nothing to do with Light and Shadow whatsoever.

So, no. SL is expanding upon the cosmology of WoW. I'd argue it's actually doing a better job at explaining the Warcraft Cosmology than Chronicle, which only gave us a set number of rules and a basis, and nothing more.

Correct. Chronicle makes it very clear that the Light and Void encompassed all of existence, and the coalescence of magics that resulted from their clash formed the cosmos as we know it. No matter how outrageous you believe it is, this is what was established in the books originally designed to be the definitive compilation of Warcraft lore.

The "titan's perspective" excuse that Blizzard came up with later was to give themselves the freedom to make changes while claiming the titans were simply incorrect (and therefore not invalidate the books), but they're ultimately retcons and there's no point calling them anything but.

[TheFirstOnes]

Please read before you post things.





I don't need evidence for an argument I'm not making.


My argument is that all of your "theories" are not confirmed by the lore itself, and that you need to stop passing off your theories as fact. All of your evidence to support your theory means absolute dick when 1.> it's not confirmed by the source, and the most important on, 2.> you dismiss other people's speculation as false and push yours as fact.


Get with the fucking program.

I did read. I never said it was confirmed.

"I don't need evidence for an argument I'm not making." You're making an argument to an argument I've clearly showcased evidence for. I would suggest you post evidence for your claims against this aswell. This isn't even me suggesting you provide evidence to a negative, I want you to give me clear reasons why the Pantheons are not extensions of what the First Ones made.

"My argument is that all of your "theories" are not confirmed by the lore itself, and that you need to stop passing off your theories as fact. All of your evidence to support your theory means absolute dick when 1.> it's not confirmed by the source, and the most important on, 2.> you dismiss other people's speculation as false and push yours as fact."

I haven't passed them as fact. You're writing a false narrative here. I've also clearly posted an interview that says the First Ones are TIED with the other Cosmic Pantheons. Why would the Cosmic Pantheons not be extensions or connected with the First Ones and their designs if the interview clearly says the First Ones are tied with the other Pantheons, and are confirmed to be the level above them, as well as the progenitors of the Cosmos (Which could also mean they're the progenitors of the Cosmic Pantheons aswell. Progenitor means ancestor, especially in regards to a family line, so that could be used to further my theory aswell)?

Wanna show me proof that the First Ones being tied with the Cosmic Pantheons or them being the level above them is not confirmed in lore? Wanna show me why the words of the author are infact fallible? Or do you just not have anything?

Yes, you have to show me proof of these claims that go against mine. Despite my shit being a theory, I show more evidence than you regarding the matter. Nothing is confirmed, sure. But that's irrelevant when talking about speculation and theories, which is mostly what this thread is about. And my claim is that the Cosmic Pantheons are extensions of the First Ones. Come on, show me proof. Show me why I'm not part of the "fucking" program. Oh, you can't? You wanna keep on claiming that I'm some "rat" without actually providing evidence yourself?

I smell a confession here.

- - - Updated - - -

Correct. Chronicle makes it very clear that the Light and Void encompassed all of existence, and the coalescence of magics that resulted from their clash formed the cosmos as we know it. No matter how outrageous you believe it is, this is what was established in the books originally designed to be the definitive compilation of Warcraft lore.

The "titan's perspective" excuse that Blizzard came up with later was to give themselves the freedom to make changes while claiming the titans were simply incorrect (and therefore not invalidate the books), but they're ultimately retcons and there's no point calling them anything but.

That's actually not true. The Light and Shadow are the fundamental cosmic forces yes, but it was only stated their explosion created the basis of the Great Dark, as well as the entirety of the Nether. Then the shards of Void sparked the ability to die within the Cosmos, while the shards of light sparked life within the Great Dark. That's it, really. Nothing regarding the Cosmic Planes, nothing regarding the Shadowlands, and nothing regarding how Light came to be (Since Light was apparently the only power that was roaming before the Great Dark became the Great Dark).

- - - Updated - - -

Like I said, it was still incredibly limited. And since some of the Titans existed before memory (like Argus), it's possible there were Titans that saw the Light and Void clash, and assumed that was the factor that made the Great Dark the way it is, since...well...Titans mostly roam the Great Dark as energy before finding a Planet to slumber/birth itself in.

- - - Updated - - -

Then again, we also don't even know if the Titans were a thing in their Cosmic Plane of Order, even prior to the Lights clash with Shadow. So, yeah.

[Stardrift]

Man, fuck Danuser. What a fucking idiot. Dude clearly never did any research into the game's lore. Just looked at a list of names and pictures and said "I like this thing, I'm gonna write about it".

Why doesn't he have this jumbled horseshit tied into the loads of boring filler "campaign" quests without substance that we're constantly plagued to do? Why do we get all this fanfic bullshit from interview dumps instead of actual books or the game itself?

Just gonna start considering this hot pile of shit non-canon. If it doesn't appear in a book or the game, it isn't real. Personally. Don't care if any of you want to consider it canon.

[TigTone]

Depending how the direction blizzard takes with the first ones they may be just very abstract entities with no visual appearance and form.

They created the universe and its cosmic forces and then left it on its own.

And every once in a while they may intervene but that intervention may be limited.

“Cough” Elune “cough”

[TheFirstOnes]

Man, fuck Danuser. What a fucking idiot. Dude clearly never did any research into the game's lore. Just looked at a list of names and pictures and said "I like this thing, I'm gonna write about it".

Why doesn't he have this jumbled horseshit tied into the loads of boring filler "campaign" quests without substance that we're constantly plagued to do? Why do we get all this fanfic bullshit from interview dumps instead of actual books or the game itself?

Just gonna start considering this hot pile of shit non-canon. If it doesn't appear in a book or the game, it isn't real. Personally. Don't care if any of you want to consider it canon.

We do.

Also, what lore do you dislike from Danuser? The fact that Arthas and Ner'Zhul chadded out against Zovaal's domination shit? Cause that's how it's always been.

[Myradin]

funny enough, by adding zovaal, they turned LK, their most famous villain, into a glorified errand boy.

He was always the errand boy of the legion who ended up going rogue. That literally hasn't changed.

[TheFirstOnes]

Depending how the direction blizzard takes with the first ones they may be just very abstract entities with no visual appearance and form.

They created the universe and its cosmic forces and then left it on its own.

And every once in a while they may intervene but that intervention may be limited.

“Cough” Elune “cough”

That's my assumption as well. Then the Cosmic Pantheons went in and basically continued on with the First Ones' designs, as their "extensions". Or did the First Ones assign the Cosmic Pantheons themselves? Who knows, but they are tied in some way.

Elune being a First One, and the First Ones actually seeing everything throughout the Cosmos without really giving two shits would be really cool to see, tbh. Like, imagine if Elune is the only First One to care about their creations, and the others look at the Cosmic War and shit as basically nothing to them, and they they could just reset everything anytime they felt like it. Would be a neat final plotline to WoW. Seeing our Gods act like douchebags to us.

[TigTone]

That's my shit as well. Then the Cosmic Pantheons went in and basically continued on with the First Ones' designs, as their "extensions". Or did the First Ones assign the Cosmic Pantheons themselves? Who knows, but they are tied in some way.

Elune being a First One, and the First Ones actually seeing everything throughout the Cosmos without really giving two shits would be really cool to see, tbh. Like, imagine if Elune is the only First One to care about their creations, and the others look at the Cosmic War and shit as basically nothing to them, and they they could just reset everything anytime they felt like it. Would be a neat final plotline to WoW. Seeing our Gods act like douchebags to us.

Humanity has been writing stories like that since forever.

Personally i don’t mind it, but some will see it as old and rehashed plot.

[TheFirstOnes]

It's all just theory crafting though. Like I said, the only things we have of the First Ones is that they architected the framework of the Cosmos, they're tied with the Cosmic Pantheons, they "shaped" the Cosmos, they're the progenitor's of the Shadowlands and the Warcraft Verse, AND they're the level above the Cosmic Pantheons. That's it.

Oh, and they left artifacts everywhere for us to look at. And we can activate their relics for some unknown reason.

- - - Updated - - -

Humanity has been writing stories like that since forever.

Personally i don’t mind it, but some will see it as old and rehashed plot.

My biggest issue is the fact that we're taking center stage in these cosmic plots to begin with. I feel like we should've NEVER seen the Cosmic Pantheons to begin with, or at the very least cap out our story with us merely meeting the Titans. That's it.

[Darknessvamp]

Why can't every Cosmic force have a leadership? Why must every cosmic power be leaderless, huh? Do you think Life and Death should be leaderless? Do you think the afterlives for mortals should be without a structure? Should every cosmic force be leaderless like Disorder? Have them all be chaotic?

No. There HAS to be a leadership involved, even if it's a Pantheon. I'd argue Cosmic Pantheons are better overall for the cosmic narrative of WoW.

I never said every cosmic had to be leaderless and I can ask you the same thing why do they all have to follow the same format? Yes I explicitly think Life and Death should've been leaderless, it would be much better that there are factions that exist within the force who had their own directions, agendas and understandings rather than just an absolute that runs and dictates how it works especially with how this universe considers them to be natural forces rather than artificial as depicted in Shadowlands. Heck the Titans had that somewhat with how they argued to go about ordering worlds and they're still presented as the "absolutes of order" (until the Titan Lords come along). Did they need structure before Shadowlands? Do you even know if Disorder is leaderless with how they're establishing their pantheons for every force? Chaos/Fel Lords could exist now because of how it all works now. That's not how that works, just because there isn't a central established pantheon of leaders doesn't mean all the forces would be chaotic.

There's hardly an argument there then considering the current outcome as a result of the Mistake caused by creating The Chronicle.

[TheFirstOnes]

Like, literally, Final Fantasy and Starcraft look like shit now. And as much as it seems like I'm "wanking" Warcraft, which I'm not (Since Blizzard themselves are writing these overpowered characters so casually), I genuinely believe Warcraft could beat Starcraft, Final Fantasy, etc in terms of power now, thanks to Blizzard's god awful "More is good" rule.

[darkoms]

We were told at Wotlk that Arthas held back the Scourge because he was kind. The Chronicles then said that Arthas held back the Scourge because he knew he could not win an open war and simply wanted to lure the heroes to him. Danuser now says that Arthas held back the Scourge because he was kind. Maybe he should finally admit that he just never read the fucking Chronicle in his life? This moron just literally does what he wants. He spits on everything that came before him and on the fans of the game, retcons whatever he wants, tries to play on the fan service and nostalgia because he can't think of something worthwhile, literally the first thing he did when he got the position of chief historian was to change the quests in which insult his waifu, and then wrote that he was not going to apologize for this and that he did it because one of the developers was playing the game with the children. Danuser is the worst thing that happened to Warcraft's lore in history. Bfa was even worse than Draenor and I can't even imagine what else awaits us in Shadowlands (except Sylvanas-Kerrigan).

[Houle]

Think of the Titan lore on Azeroth as First Grade math. It's simple, swift, and easy to get. Think of the Chronicle as 6th grade math. It's harder to get, sure, but the principles are there still, and things are now being set up extra.

Now, think of Shadowlands as Geometry. You're expanding upon what's already been established, things are harder to get now, and shit's being expanded upon even further, AND ON TOP OF THAT, you're combining lessons and set ups, and exploring things such as shapes more to get a better understanding of the solution and what it means.

It's literally the same thing.

difference is, geometry doesnt change first grade math. its simply based on it.
shadowlands lore actively changes stuff that came before.
examples include the fact that in chronicles it was said that light and void came before everything and everyone, that nathrezim are an originally demonic race, that demons created the helm of domination and frostmourne, etc.
none of this was "expanded", all of it was clearly defined before and then changed. thats not expanding, thats retconning.
and thats not even counting in all the shit chronicles itself retconned (the REALLY old lore, where titans werent planet-sized, where void lords or a fckn cosmic chart didnt exist)

We do.

Also, what lore do you dislike from Danuser? The fact that Arthas and Ner'Zhul chadded out against Zovaal's domination shit? Cause that's how it's always been.

nahhh not really.
before, the only one who chadded out was ner'zhul, who went "yknow, fck you man" to kil'jaeden and the legion, not zovaal and some "domination magic" (which didnt even exist before SL)

[TheFirstOnes]

I never said every cosmic had to be leaderless and I can ask you the same thing why do they all have to follow the same format? Yes I explicitly think Life and Death should've been leaderless, it would be much better that there are factions that exist within the force who had their own directions, agendas and understandings rather than just an absolute that runs and dictates how it works especially with how this universe considers them to be natural forces rather than artificial as depicted in Shadowlands. Heck the Titans had that somewhat with how they argued to go about ordering worlds and they're still presented as the "absolutes of order" (until the Titan Lords come along). Did they need structure before Shadowlands? Do you even know if Disorder is leaderless with how they're establishing their pantheons for every force? Chaos/Fel Lords could exist now because of how it all works now. That's not how that works, just because there isn't a central established pantheon of leaders doesn't mean all the forces would be chaotic.

There's hardly an argument there then considering the current outcome as a result of the Mistake caused by creating The Chronicle.

They have to follow the same rule to preserve Cosmic Balance.

And like I said, there is no "mistake". You're literally arguing ad nauseam on this, and I've mentioned multiple times why this isn't the case.

"Chaos/Fel Lords could exist now because of how it all works now. That's not how that works, just because there isn't a central established pantheon of leaders doesn't mean all the forces would be chaotic." Except, in Shadowlands and Legion, it's clearly shown that without a stable, working leadership, Cosmic powers can go into Chaos. Why do you think Disorder had no Pantheon prior to Sargeras? Cause that's what it was. Leaderless, chaos, disorder!

"it would be much better that there are factions that exist within the force who had their own directions, agendas and understandings rather than just an absolute that runs and dictates how it works especially with how this universe considers them to be natural forces rather than artificial as depicted in Shadowlands."

That's a horrible idea. Then, you would have no logical reasoning with the other factions, and the force would possibly go into War against itself. Hell, that's literally the plot between Sargeras and the Titans, aswell as Zovaal and the Pantheon of Death. And guess how well that's going. 2 different ways of thinking on how a cosmic force should work would be hell.

[Stncold]

Danuser doesn't say a thing about the First Ones creating the cosmic forces. Just "laying the framework" for stuff like the titans. 10 min 40 secondsish in the Bellular interview.

As usual mmo-c posters are stirring up shit with false information. If you don't want to actually listen to it yourself(which you should), get your recaps from wowhead since they tend to be actually accurate.

[Pebrocks The Warlock]

As usual mmo-c posters are stirring up shit with false information.

I do apologize for not checking but you know that is not what I'm doing. I went ahead and made it more accurate.

[Sorshen]

Danuser can't even get his facts straight. The butchering continues.

[TheFirstOnes]

I do apologize for not checking but you know that is not what I'm doing. I went ahead and made it more accurate.

Idk why, but I just realized you have my Alleria text as your profile banner. lmaooo

- - - Updated - - -

Danuser doesn't say a thing about the First Ones creating the cosmic forces. Just "laying the framework" for stuff like the titans. 10 min 40 secondsish in the Bellular interview.

As usual mmo-c posters are stirring up shit with false information. If you don't want to actually listen to it yourself(which you should), get your recaps from wowhead since they tend to be actually accurate.

I get more into what Steve meant by that multiple times. We also got into the whole false info shit multiple times. OP apologized about it. Quit arguing ad nauseam.

[Pebrocks The Warlock]

Idk why, but I just realized you have my Alleria text as your profile banner. lmaooo

Alleria is climaxing all over the forums. Thank the Void.

[TheFirstOnes]

Alleria is climaxing all over the forums. Thank the Void.

Varodoc is getting all sweaty right now.

- - - Updated - - -

(I love Var btw. This was meant to be a light hearted joke)