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  1. #101
    Quote Originally Posted by Elegiac View Post
    Not seeing how this doesn't make them class traitors, lol. You seem to be of the impression that a given business model existing is inherently pro-worker because some people choose to work under that model, which...No.

    Just as bigotry stemming from trauma does not justify the bigotry, supporting exploitative economic policies because "some people might prefer it" does not make the economic practice less exploitative. Shit like that is how indentured servitude gets normalized.
    You're assuming they're all being exploited. In the case of the folks I know, that is very much not the case.

    They were all doing gig work on the side, didn't need the benefits and just wanted the extra cash. The business was basically like a guild in an adventure RPG/ anime where they acted as the source for information and scheduled the gigs and the workers just came in and took the jobs they wanted. The business took a cut for setting up the gig and the workers took the rest.

    That's how the business model was set up because that's how it was allowed to be set-up. Prop 22 would have destroyed that, meaning everyone involved would have lost all the income from that and none of them wanted that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Edge- View Post
    Voting for your continued exploitation because the company is threatening to kill your job if they have to treat you like an employee and not a serf is kinda like, very much the definition of a "class traitor" if we're going down that road.
    The company wasn't threatening to kill their job, the business would have been closed completely because it couldn't support the cost of doing business anymore if it had to pay the extra stuff Prop 22 was requiring, which the workers didn't want, didn't need, or didn't care about because this was all side work for the vast majority of them.

    A model a great many despise and have been aggressively lied to about, and a model that many accepted simply because they needed to work and this was all there was for them. Or they needed a second gig and this is all they could get. Begging for scraps from corporate overlords ain't great, and that's again, pretty "class traitor".
    There are many different types of gig workers, acting as if it's a one size fits all space and having one part of it act differently than another doesn't make them a class traitor. They're not all the same "class" because they're not all in the same situation.

    Correct, it was built around exploiting the ever-living fuck out of drivers and gig workers, pushing off costs to them while limiting expenses by denying them benefits etc.

    Generally the history of labor is companies trying to do this very thing and getting eventually owned by the workers.
    Gig workers work differently than regular employees and had different rules and regulations as a result of that. I don't think a one size fits all requirement for gig workers to be treated as regular employees is the best option. They're not regular employees. In some cases they work one gig a month, even a regular company doesn't pay for benefits for workers that don't work "full time."

    So they don't have a functional business model that's not built on exploiting the fuck outta their workers? Sounds like AB5 was a pretty good thing, then!

    "that's what their workers signed up for" remains the worst corporate-slave argument around.

    "I guess we shouldn't ask for bathroom breaks, we knew what we signed up for."
    "I guess we don't deserve days off or overtime, we knew what we signed up for."
    "I guess we don't need safety regulations, we knew this dangerous job we we signed up for."
    I'm still not really understanding how they're "exploiting the fuck" out of their workers, when in the case of the business/ people I know, this was all done on the side and not one of them needed, wanted or cared about the benefits and extra stuff Prop 22 was requiring because they already had those benefits from their regular job, were retired and had benefits, etc...

    That's obviously not the case for everyone, though.

    I'm all for fixing the situation, but Prop 22 wasn't how to do it, and apparently folks agreed because that's how they voted.
    Last edited by Katchii; 2021-02-23 at 06:06 PM.

  2. #102
    Void Lord Elegiac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Katchii View Post
    You're assuming they're all being exploited. In the case of the folks I know, that is very much not the case.

    They were all doing gig work on the side, didn't need the benefits and just wanted the extra cash.
    So, in other words, an outlier that is about as representative of the reality of gig work in this country as the musical Rent is representative of the reality of poverty. They're still class traitors for putting the benefit they derive from an exploitative economic system over the interests of people with whom they have more in common than any capitalist (in the sense of capital owner), lol.

    That's how the business model was set up because that's how it was allowed to be set-up. Prop 22 would have destroyed that, meaning everyone involved would have lost all the income from that and none of them wanted that.
    You do realise this is also a defense of indentured servitude and slavery, right?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Katchii View Post
    and apparently folks agreed because that's how they voted.
    What a dishonest thing to say given that it is a known fact that there was massive amounts of disinformation being circulated about Prop 22. Christ and Allah.
    Last edited by Elegiac; 2021-02-23 at 06:15 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Marjane Satrapi
    The world is not divided between East and West. You are American, I am Iranian, we don't know each other, but we talk and understand each other perfectly. The difference between you and your government is much bigger than the difference between you and me. And the difference between me and my government is much bigger than the difference between me and you. And our governments are very much the same.

  3. #103
    Quote Originally Posted by Katchii View Post
    The company wasn't threatening to kill their job, the business would have been closed completely because it couldn't support the cost of doing business anymore if it had to pay the extra stuff Prop 22 was requiring, which the workers didn't want, didn't need, or didn't care about because this was all side work for the vast majority of them.
    They didn't want that? Why'd gig companies have to drop $220M+ on advertising for Prop 22 then? Wouldn't this be "in the bag", if we're to believe the Lyft commissioned poll showed that 71% of their drivers wanted to remain contractors? (NOTHIN FISHY THERE!)

    However it's difficult to find actual polling to back this up that doesn't come from a gig company with a vested interest in ensuring the results are in their favor.

    There are many different types of gig workers, acting as if it's a one size fits all space and having one part of it act differently than another doesn't make them a class traitor. They're not all the same "class" because they're not all in the same situation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Katchii View Post
    Gig workers work differently than regular employees and had different rules and regulations as a result of that. I don't think a one size fits all requirement for gig workers to be treated as regular employees is the best option. They're not regular employees. In some cases they work one gig a month, even a regular company doesn't pay for benefits for workers that don't work "full time.
    Yeah? How often? Got any data to support any of this? Because this all continues to be corpo-gig speak, regurgitating every argument they put out in press releases.

    Quote Originally Posted by Katchii View Post
    I'm still not really understanding how they're "exploiting the fuck" out of their workers, when in the case of the business/ people I know, this was all done on the side and not one of them needed, wanted or cared about the benefits and extra stuff Prop 22 was requiring because they already had those benefits from their regular job, were retired and had benefits, etc...
    Your social circle of "I need some extra weed/booze money." ain't the mainstay of the gig workforce my dude. Also, they're still getting exploited even if they're earning just a bit of extra scratch on the side. That they're earning some scratch is great, but doesn't change the fact that every one of these companies is largely built off of exploiting their "contract" workforce.

    Quote Originally Posted by Katchii View Post
    I'm all for fixing the situation, but Prop 22 wasn't how to do it, and apparently folks agreed because that's how they voted.
    AB5, I think you mean. Prop 22 was the ballot proposition that gig companies wrote, including a 7/8 vote to repeal it making it functionally impossible to repeal ever, that they spent hundreds of millions on.

    Because I guess something that's good for people and the economy isn't obvious or something and you gotta spend hundreds of millions you could be paying your "contract" workforce to convince folks about that.

    Weird.

    Edit: And as pointed out by @Elegiac, they had to lie through their teeth to "convince" people in the hundreds of millions worth of ads and mailers they put out.

  4. #104
    Quote Originally Posted by Krakan View Post
    It's a shame unskilled labor is so common.. if only some wise voice in the past could of warned about the effects massive unchecked immigration had on an already overstaffed unskilled labor market!

    Where this prophet is we can only hope he uses his power for good.
    Maybe you should point out all this unchecked immigration. Because this is not the problem. But I wouldn't expect a conservative ass clown to know better.

  5. #105
    Quote Originally Posted by Elegiac View Post
    So, in other words, an outlier that is about as representative of the reality of gig work in this country as the musical Rent is representative of the reality of poverty. They're still class traitors for putting the benefit they derive from an exploitative economic system over the interests of people with whom they have more in common than any capitalist (in the sense of capital owner), lol.
    Outlier or not, they would have been impacted by Prop 22.

    You do realise this is also a defense of indentured servitude and slavery, right?
    I didn't know indentured servants could opt out at any time, got paid for their work, could choose their own hours, and willingly signed up for it.

    This is not really a fair comparison.

    Doesn't change the result though.

    I won't deny that advertising had an impact on that result, though.

    Still, I stand by the idea that the one size fits all remedy that was Prop 22 wasn't the best way to address the issues.

  6. #106
    Quote Originally Posted by Katchii View Post
    Outlier or not, they would have been impacted by Prop 22.
    AB5 is the bill that gave gig workers employee status and protections/benefits.

    Prop 22 was the gig-company funded ballot measure returning things to before AB5, that they had to spend hundreds of millions of dollars lying to "convince" people that it was in their best interests.

    If you're unfamiliar with the topic and getting the two confused, I'd suggest a quick refresher on what they both are.

  7. #107
    Void Lord Elegiac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Edge- View Post
    Also, they're still getting exploited even if they're earning just a bit of extra scratch on the side. That they're earning some scratch is great, but doesn't change the fact that every one of these companies is largely built off of exploiting their "contract" workforce.
    This ties into a really good point about how the existence of gig work as a major economic feature can seen to be representative of how badly mainstream employment is keeping up at offering people comfortable lifestyles.

    It would not be an issue if we lived in a system where the benefits we expect of employers - healthcare, retirement, educational assistance, etc. - were guaranteed as social security and it were legitimately a function of people wanting more money to spend on luxury goods rather than at *best* being a way for people to slightly exceed bare subsistence and at worst, the entire source of income.

    I think one of the reasons gig employment is particularly bad smelling on a philosophical level is because it kind of embodies the worst aspects of capitalism in that it's a raw demonstration of people with capital leveraging that ownership to extract value from labor in a very dehumanizing way.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Katchii View Post
    I didn't know indentured servants could opt out at any time, got paid for their work, could choose their own hours, and willingly signed up for it.

    This is not really a fair comparison.
    It is, because I'm not a libertarian and understand that perverse incentives created by a shitty social and economic systems are just as effective means of coercion as actual bondage. See: Sharecropping.

    (I really hate using coercion because libertarians coopted it but, eh.)
    Last edited by Elegiac; 2021-02-23 at 06:29 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Marjane Satrapi
    The world is not divided between East and West. You are American, I am Iranian, we don't know each other, but we talk and understand each other perfectly. The difference between you and your government is much bigger than the difference between you and me. And the difference between me and my government is much bigger than the difference between me and you. And our governments are very much the same.

  8. #108
    Quote Originally Posted by Edge- View Post
    Yeah? How often? Got any data to support any of this? Because this all continues to be corpo-gig speak, regurgitating every argument they put out in press releases.
    I'm just speaking about my anecdotal information straight from the mouth of the owner of a gig business. Take it however you want.

    Your social circle of "I need some extra weed/booze money." ain't the mainstay of the gig workforce my dude. Also, they're still getting exploited even if they're earning just a bit of extra scratch on the side. That they're earning some scratch is great, but doesn't change the fact that every one of these companies is largely built off of exploiting their "contract" workforce.
    Point being, not every gig worker is the same. Not everyone wanted what the measure was enforcing.

    AB5, I think you mean. Prop 22 was the ballot proposition that gig companies wrote, including a 7/8 vote to repeal it making it functionally impossible to repeal ever, that they spent hundreds of millions on.

    Because I guess something that's good for people and the economy isn't obvious or something and you gotta spend hundreds of millions you could be paying your "contract" workforce to convince folks about that.

    Weird.
    You're right, got them mixed up.

    Again, speaking only from what I know from hearing directly from the mouth of a friend who runs and owns a gig business. They, obviously, didn't want a measure that could destroy their business to go through, but all of their workers supported that idea as well.

    Edit: And as pointed out by @Elegiac, they had to lie through their teeth to "convince" people in the hundreds of millions worth of ads and mailers they put out.
    Fair point.

  9. #109
    Quote Originally Posted by Katchii View Post
    I'm just speaking about my anecdotal information straight from the mouth of the owner of a gig business. Take it however you want.
    Owner of a gig business? Like, a company that employs contractors a la Uber? Man, surely there's no conflict of interest there, and he surely doesn't have a vested interest in the status quo as a result, if so.

    Quote Originally Posted by Katchii View Post
    Point being, not every gig worker is the same. Not everyone wanted what the measure was enforcing.
    You'll literally never get universal support/approval for anything dude. This is an impossible and stupid bar to set.

    Quote Originally Posted by Katchii View Post
    Again, speaking only from what I know from hearing directly from the mouth of a friend who runs and owns a gig business. They, obviously, didn't want a measure that could destroy their business to go through, but all of their workers supported that idea as well.
    So your buddy who has a business built off of exploiting "contract" workers and has a vested interest in maintaining the status quo has told you that his contract workers love being contract workers and wouldn't have it any other way?

    Have you like, talked to any of the workers? Or are we taking their boss at his word because raisons?

  10. #110
    Void Lord Elegiac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Katchii View Post
    I'm just speaking about my anecdotal information straight from the mouth of the owner of a gig business.
    @Edge beat me to it, so.

    Quote Originally Posted by Marjane Satrapi
    The world is not divided between East and West. You are American, I am Iranian, we don't know each other, but we talk and understand each other perfectly. The difference between you and your government is much bigger than the difference between you and me. And the difference between me and my government is much bigger than the difference between me and you. And our governments are very much the same.

  11. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by Edge- View Post
    Owner of a gig business? Like, a company that employs contractors a la Uber? Man, surely there's no conflict of interest there, and he surely doesn't have a vested interest in the status quo as a result, if so.
    TIL: You can buy into a Maid Service franchise.
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  12. #112
    Quote Originally Posted by Edge- View Post
    Owner of a gig business? Like, a company that employs contractors a la Uber? Man, surely there's no conflict of interest there, and he surely doesn't have a vested interest in the status quo as a result, if so.
    Can't deny that he obviously has a bias on it, but that doesn't automatically invalidate his opinion on it, or the invalidate the opinions of the workers underneath him who supported him.

    You'll literally never get universal support/approval for anything dude. This is an impossible and stupid bar to set.
    I'm not trying to set any bar. Simply stating the obvious. Some of the gig workers didn't want what the measure was going to implement. Why is that 1) hard to understand or 2) automatically a bad thing?

    You're almost insinuating that these folks are too stupid to know what's good for them, what's in their best interest or that they can't or are completely unable to speak for themselves.

    So your buddy who has a business built off of exploiting "contract" workers and has a vested interest in maintaining the status quo has told you that his contract workers love being contract workers and wouldn't have it any other way?

    Have you like, talked to any of the workers? Or are we taking their boss at his word because raisons?
    I know several of them personally. All of them were also on Facebook campaigning alongside their employer. Many of us went to college together and still keep in touch.

    Again, going to to state the obvious and say that not all of them wanted the same thing, employers or employees. It seems that's a bit of a hard pill to swallow.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Elegiac View Post
    @Edge beat me to it, so.

    Why does that automatically make him a bad guy, invalidate his opinion, or mean he doesn't honestly want to do right by his employees? Not all business owners are exploitative greedy, piles of shit.

  13. #113
    Herald of the Titans TigTone's Avatar
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    We should update the definition of “bad guy” to include willful ignorance and laziness when voting on policies that will affect the lives of millions.

  14. #114
    Quote Originally Posted by Katchii View Post
    Can't deny that he obviously has a bias on it, but that doesn't automatically invalidate his opinion on it, or the invalidate the opinions of the workers underneath him who supported him.
    Sure it does. It calls into question the truth behind his words. He's the Monorail Guy from Simpsons, and you're uncritically and unquestioningly buying what he's selling.

    Quote Originally Posted by Katchii View Post
    I'm not trying to set any bar. Simply stating the obvious. Some of the gig workers didn't want what the measure was going to implement. Why is that 1) hard to understand or 2) automatically a bad thing?
    And some did. That's the rub, you'll always have disagreement on an issue and that disagreement isn't inherent proof one side is correct and the other is wrong.

    I get that some gig workers may not have wanted it, that's their opinions.
    Why is that bad? Because it's a failure to recognize the effects of the gig economy. It's a failure to recognize how you are usually exploited. It's a failure of folks who love that they can just pull a few extra rides for some bar money because they're already financially sound, not thinking about what this model does to people who actually rely on it for their primary source of income.

    Quote Originally Posted by Katchii View Post
    You're almost insinuating that these folks are too stupid to know what's good for them, what's in their best interest or that they can't or are completely unable to speak for themselves.
    Often times...fuckin yeah. The ACA is a good example, yet now we have huge support for the protections it added, even amongst Republicans. Masks are another good example in the recent pandemic.

    And it doesn't help when corporations are dumping hundreds of millions into campaigns designed to mislead people into voting against their own interests, either.

    Quote Originally Posted by Katchii View Post
    I know several of them personally. All of them were also on Facebook campaigning alongside their employer. Many of us went to college together and still keep in touch.
    I'm mashin F to doubt, because this story of your gig-company owning friend continues to be as convenient for your argument as you need it to be.

  15. #115
    The Unstoppable Force Theodarzna's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Katchii View Post
    You're assuming they're all being exploited.
    One need not assume that, that is a fact, that is how Capitalism works. Uber drivers are just exploited to a worse degree.
    Quote Originally Posted by Crissi View Post
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    On MMO-C we learn that Anti-Fascism is locking arms with corporations, the State Department and agreeing with the CIA, But opposing the CIA and corporate America, and thinking Jews have a right to buy land and can expect tenants to pay rent THAT is ultra-Fash Nazism. Bellingcat is an MI6/CIA cut out. Clyburn Truther.

  16. #116
    Quote Originally Posted by Edge- View Post
    Sure it does. It calls into question the truth behind his words. He's the Monorail Guy from Simpsons, and you're uncritically and unquestioningly buying what he's selling.
    You're automatically assuming he's the monorail guy.

    That's on you. I know for a fact he's not. But my anecdote isn't going to change an opinion, so I'll just leave it at that.

    And some did. That's the rub, you'll always have disagreement on an issue and that disagreement isn't inherent proof one side is correct and the other is wrong.

    I get that some gig workers may not have wanted it, that's their opinions.
    Why is that bad? Because it's a failure to recognize the effects of the gig economy. It's a failure to recognize how you are usually exploited. It's a failure of folks who love that they can just pull a few extra rides for some bar money because they're already financially sound, not thinking about what this model does to people who actually rely on it for their primary source of income.

    Often times...fuckin yeah. The ACA is a good example, yet now we have huge support for the protections it added, even amongst Republicans. Masks are another good example in the recent pandemic.

    And it doesn't help when corporations are dumping hundreds of millions into campaigns designed to mislead people into voting against their own interests, either.
    So, we're just going to ignore their opinions and shove what's good for them down their throat whether they want it or not? That's not how democracy works. I agree that in some cases that's unfortunate, because I agree that sometimes people ARE too stupid or whatever to know what's good for them, but that's just not how our system works. But we can't always assume that, or that they're wrong.

    I'm mashin F to doubt, because this story of your gig-company owning friend continues to be as convenient for your argument as you need it to be.
    Think what you want. Not going to try and bend over backwards to convince you.

  17. #117
    Quote Originally Posted by Katchii View Post
    You're automatically assuming he's the monorail guy.
    No, I'm automatically assuming a business owner places his interests over the interests of his employees, and wants to put the best face on his company. It's like Walmart putting out those videos about how great it is to work at Walmart with all those amazing testimonials. Then you talk to folks actually working there and they'll laugh in your face if you ask if it's as nice to work there as corporate says it is.

    Quote Originally Posted by Katchii View Post
    That's not how democracy works.
    Sometimes, that's quite literally how democracy works! See the passage of Prop. 22 for "ignoring their opinion s and shove what's 'good' for them down their throat whether they want it or not", for an example.

    Quote Originally Posted by Katchii View Post
    I agree that in some cases that's unfortunate, because I agree that sometimes people ARE too stupid or whatever to know what's good for them, but that's just not how our system works. But we can't always assume that, or that they're wrong.
    A lot of this would be cleared up with significant campaign finance reform legislation and killing massive, expensive, dishonest corporate ad campaigns for propositions they author, themselves.

    That's the rub in this instance: This was passed off the back of hundreds of millions of dollars in ads spent by gig companies. Hardly "democracy in action".

  18. #118
    The Unstoppable Force Theodarzna's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Katchii View Post
    So, we're just going to ignore their opinions and shove what's good for them down their throat whether they want it or not? That's not how democracy works. I agree that in some cases that's unfortunate, because I agree that sometimes people ARE too stupid or whatever to know what's good for them, but that's just not how our system works. But we can't always assume that, or that they're wrong.
    Do we know what they think? I mean? You have made a lot of huge assumptions about who works for Uber and Lyft and about what they would actually want.

    I am sorry but a company whose business model demands workers who are insanely desperate and willing to work for less than even the minimum wage really should be shut down and its owners and board imprisoned.
    Quote Originally Posted by Crissi View Post
    i think I have my posse filled out now. Mars is Theo, Jupiter is Vanyali, Linadra is Venus, and Heather is Mercury. Dragon can be Pluto.
    On MMO-C we learn that Anti-Fascism is locking arms with corporations, the State Department and agreeing with the CIA, But opposing the CIA and corporate America, and thinking Jews have a right to buy land and can expect tenants to pay rent THAT is ultra-Fash Nazism. Bellingcat is an MI6/CIA cut out. Clyburn Truther.

  19. #119
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    Quote Originally Posted by Theodarzna View Post
    I am sorry but a company whose business model demands workers who are insanely desperate and willing to work for less than even the minimum wage really should be shut down and its owners and board imprisoned.
    Does that include coal miners?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Katchii View Post
    So, we're just going to ignore their opinions and shove what's good for them down their throat whether they want it or not? That's not how democracy works. I agree that in some cases that's unfortunate, because I agree that sometimes people ARE too stupid or whatever to know what's good for them, but that's just not how our system works. But we can't always assume that, or that they're wrong.
    It’s not stupid, that’s not the correct word. They had two campaigns that were using very similar rhetoric of helping workers. One campaign was far less funded than the other, due to the nature of both campaigns.

    I am willing to bet, if the two campaigns simply listed who they represent in their ads, instead of both claiming to represent the will of the workers... the vote wouldn’t have been close. You can’t really argue that this is what people wanted, when the point of a campaign was to obfuscate their intent... because they knew what people wanted.
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  20. #120
    Quote Originally Posted by Theodarzna View Post
    Do we know what they think? I mean? You have made a lot of huge assumptions about who works for Uber and Lyft and about what they would actually want.
    I've made no assumptions about anyone. I've been honest about where my information and opinion is coming from. None of it is from or about Uber or Lyft.

    I am sorry but a company whose business model demands workers who are insanely desperate and willing to work for less than even the minimum wage really should be shut down and its owners and board imprisoned.
    The wage issue is a good one, because it's all over the place, but many of them do make more than minimum wage...some significantly more, because in many cases they're able to set their own rates as "independent contractors." Those who work for companies like Uber and Lyft obviously can't, but those folks are gig workers just like that one guy down the street who DJ's on his own. The law sees them as the same when they're not, so shouldn't necessarily be treated that way.

    That's why the gig economy is a hard one to manage because it literally doesn't work the same way as typical full time hourly wage workers working for a company.

    I'm all for fixing it and holding big bad corporations accountable, but not at the expense of the little guys or the honest ones, because we want to try and enforce a one size fits all option that literally doesn't fit everyone.

    Nowhere did I say I'm against fixing the problem, only that I understood why the measure in California didn't pass and agree with the mentalities of some of the folks there who voted to keep it this way.

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