Lost Codex and Bellular Lore Interview. [Spoilers]

[StationaryHawk]

That's actually not true. The Light and Shadow are the fundamental cosmic forces yes, but it was only stated their explosion created the basis of the Great Dark, as well as the entirety of the Nether. Then the shards of Void sparked the ability to die within the Cosmos, while the shards of light sparked life within the Great Dark. That's it, really. Nothing regarding the Cosmic Planes, nothing regarding the Shadowlands, and nothing regarding how Light came to be (Since Light was apparently the only power that was roaming before the Great Dark became the Great Dark).

- - - Updated - - -

Like I said, it was still incredibly limited. And since some of the Titans existed before memory (like Argus), it's possible there were Titans that saw the Light and Void clash, and assumed that was the factor that made the Great Dark the way it is, since...well...Titans mostly roam the Great Dark as energy before finding a Planet to slumber/birth itself in.

- - - Updated - - -

Then again, we also don't even know if the Titans were a thing in their Cosmic Plane of Order, even prior to the Lights clash with Shadow. So, yeah.

Chronicle refers to the clash as the "cataclysmic birth of the cosmos" and goes on to use it and the Great Dark interchangeably. Your argument stems from your misunderstanding of the source material.

The Light didn't come from anything. It was all there was.

[TheFirstOnes]

Chronicle refers to the clash as the "cataclysmic birth of the cosmos" and goes on to use it and the Great Dark interchangeably. Your argument stems from your misunderstanding of the source material.

The Light didn't come from anything. It was all there was.

I talk about the Light being there to begin with. I will agree that the "cataclysmic birth of the cosmos" shit is kinda weird though, especially if we're to assume Titans existed before memory, and the Arbiter came about before even that, but the Light and Void made the Great Dark and the Cosmos at the same time, DESPITE the fact the Great Dark is apparently not really older than the Cosmic Planes at all, nor does it seem to be as old as those cosmic realms.

- - - Updated - - -

My god, I can't believe people are actually defending this.

Why? You dislike the fact that Light and Shadow aren't these immortal, indestructible powers anymore?

[Yarathir]

Why? You dislike the fact that Light and Shadow aren't these immortal, indestructible powers anymore?

Assuming it's accurate? Yes.

[Darknessvamp]

They have to follow the same rule to preserve Cosmic Balance.

And like I said, there is no "mistake". You're literally arguing ad nauseam on this, and I've mentioned multiple times why this isn't the case.

"Chaos/Fel Lords could exist now because of how it all works now. That's not how that works, just because there isn't a central established pantheon of leaders doesn't mean all the forces would be chaotic." Except, in Shadowlands and Legion, it's clearly shown that without a stable, working leadership, Cosmic powers can go into Chaos. Why do you think Disorder had no Pantheon prior to Sargeras? Cause that's what it was. Leaderless, chaos, disorder!

"it would be much better that there are factions that exist within the force who had their own directions, agendas and understandings rather than just an absolute that runs and dictates how it works especially with how this universe considers them to be natural forces rather than artificial as depicted in Shadowlands."

That's a horrible idea. Then, you would have no logical reasoning with the other factions, and the force would possibly go into War against itself. Hell, that's literally the plot between Sargeras and the Titans, aswell as Zovaal and the Pantheon of Death. And guess how well that's going. 2 different ways of thinking on how a cosmic force should work would be hell.

"preserve Cosmic Balance" since when has that been a thing in Warcraft?

Except you haven't, your argument is "I think it's good now and I think it's better for the narrative" and it definitely is getting annoying now. If all they can do is rehash the same concepts just with a different colour and name to differentiate them then what's the point? Exploring the same leadership structure of some sort of pantheon that has explicit control over a cosmic force that has one ingrained understanding about the thing they're governing quickly loses interest when they all start existing as such.

Except the Shadowlands didn't go into Chaos, every where you go people state they are still following the 'Purpose' which is why everything is going wrong. If anything it's an argument against having one absolute pantheon deciding how Death is run if it just keeps mindlessly running per their orders and is ripe for exploitation. Indeed the Legion returned to splintered groups but that doesn't dismiss there being a Pantheon of leaders prior to Sargeras rule, considering he was a Titan and thus brought Order to the chaotic forces it can be assumed Chaos Lords would be beings who encourage rampart Disorder (possibly Trickster or self-assured destruction 'gods') although I still don't believe they should have such a system and a constant series of fracturing, expanding and contracting groups within Chaos would present more writing opportunities.

You don't have to have logical reasoning with all factions and what would be the issue with that? Groups that have conflict due to different understandings are literally what this series is built on. I disagree, Sargeras fully believed in the same thing as the other Titans and took that thinking to the extreme whilst Zovaal, although not fully explained yet, is characterised as having not gone against the others but the First Ones and jailed as a result, basically he stepped out of line. Additionally this is just ascribing the problem of such writing to the constrictive elements of having everything tied to some kind of pantheon leadership which is why I'm saying actually having factions rather than supreme 'god like' figures driving such a narrative would be better than tying it to the virtue of being some supreme leading creature.

[KOUNTERPARTS]

Somebody made an observation about the Jailer and "domination magic" from the new interviews.


In the interviews, they revealed the existence "domination magic" and stated the Pantheon of Death used this magic to seal the Jailer in the Maw. I thought it was "the magic from Ardenweald" that did this, so maybe it was both?


Anyway, it's explained that this domination magic suppresses one's will rather than mind control them directly. We see in the 'Kingsmourne' cinematic after Anduin stabs the Archon, his armor is not glowing (the runes on the armor) nor were Anduin's eyes glowing... and Anduin's personality resurfaces briefly. Only when the Jailer's domination magic kicks back in do the runes begin to glow again, eyes begin to glow again and re-dominates over Anduin.


All of this being said, notice also how the Jailer has the similar glowing runes on his body and eyes glowing.


Probably a long shot chance, but what are the odds that the Jailer himself is being permanently dominated? That the body of the Jailer is merely another vessel and the true "Jailer" -- the voice, the personality, the goal to destroy everything -- is somebody else entirely?


This is the quote from the forums:

Now, I think there’s a curious implication here. Remember when Andy one-shot the Archon? Good times, right? Well, when that happened, Andy’s will was suppressed by the Domination Runes on his Armor.

I think the Jailer is also perpetually under influence of Domination Magic. I think the runes tattooed on his flesh are basically the Eternal Ones’ use of the thing, and what it does is: It suppresses the Jailer’s will to leave.

A lot of people have questioned: If the Jailer’s minions can just fly out of the Maw, why can’t they carry the Jailer with them? And I think that’s the answer. The Domination Magic cast on the Jailer stops him from trying to leave. It even stops him from doing something like ordering his minions to drag him out.

So he has to escape through the cracks of the magic. He has to break the hold on him by doing things that he isn’t forbidden to do. And that’s why his methods seem so roundabout and overly complicated. There are lots of obstacles to his plans that we can’t even see because the obstacles are in his brain.

That’s just a hypothesis, but it would explain lots of plot holes of Shadowlands.

[Stardrift]

We do.

Also, what lore do you dislike from Danuser? The fact that Arthas and Ner'Zhul chadded out against Zovaal's domination shit? Cause that's how it's always been.

No, we don't. Almost none of this info can be found in books or in game. This is almost all made up on-the-spot because Danuser doesn't fucking think shit through.

Just about all of it. He just simply put is not a good writer, what so ever. Dude has gone the extra mile just to take a piss on previous writers' work, and spit on longtime lore fans.

Dude has clearly not done any of his research, like I stated above. If you like this horseshit, that's fine, but you can fuck off with this "that's how it's always been" shit because Zovaal never existed in WOTLK/WCIII. It was just Arthas vs Nerzhul. But that's besides the point, I don't give a fuck about the Lich King shit. I give a fuck about his obsession with "the grand schemes" and "the cosmic forces". His line about the Emerald Nightmare being comparable to the cycle of life and death is fucking stupid and is the first thing, among many other things, that stuck out like a sore thumb in this interview.

Inb4 more gaslighting, strawmanning and loaded questions from the same type of person who most likely loved GoT season 8 and The Last Jedi. I, and many clearly don't like this horseshit. You've no argument here other than to just provoke.

[huth]

I'm getting brainfarts the more I read this thread. Once again, my fault. Misread the meaning. Though, at the end of the day, not sure why you guys are talking about the Primus being a master Runesmith anyway in this thread, unless you're also going to talk about the Runecarver, since Blizzard is basically giving us the answer to the whole Runecarver plot in these interviews lmao

Because some people act like that is some new information that totally confirms things, when we've known that since week 1 of SL and it's one of the reasons people even considered the possibility.

[MikeBogina]

as many others have already realized, blizz hates ner'zhul. zovaal is just yet another way to further erase the characters previous importance in the lore.
funny enough, by adding zovaal, they turned LK, their most famous villain, into a glorified errand boy.

I hate using this word so please excuse it, but I feel like they're raping the Lich King's and Arthas' lore for The Jailer and Anduin's story this expansion.

They change the past to justify the new stuff, but then the past doesn't make sense anymore and they've been doing it for a couple expansions now and seem to be like they're just going to keep doing it.

[TheFirstOnes]

No, we don't. Almost none of this info can be found in books or in game. This is almost all made up on-the-spot because Danuser doesn't fucking think shit through.

Just about all of it. He just simply put is not a good writer, what so ever. Dude has gone the extra mile just to take a piss on previous writers' work, and spit on longtime lore fans.

Dude has clearly not done any of his research, like I stated above. If you like this horseshit, that's fine, but you can fuck off with this "that's how it's always been" shit because Zovaal never existed in WOTLK/WCIII. It was just Arthas vs Nerzhul. But that's besides the point, I don't give a fuck about the Lich King shit. I give a fuck about his obsession with "the grand schemes" and "the cosmic forces". His line about the Emerald Nightmare being comparable to the cycle of life and death is fucking stupid and is the first thing, among many other things, that stuck out like a sore thumb in this interview.

Inb4 more gaslighting, strawmanning and loaded questions from the same type of person who most likely loved GoT season 8 and The Last Jedi. I, and many clearly don't like this horseshit. You've no argument here other than to just provoke.

I mean, it is shown. Play Warcraft 3, or read the Arthas novel. Zovaal just isn't mentioned anywhere there. Doesn't mean Arthas and Ner'Zhul didn't do the shit they did still.

[Goldielocks]

The First Ones don't even need to be Sentient Beings. They could just be omnipotent, all powerful forces of nature such as Christianity's God, or something akin to that. Besides, certainty and probability aren't absolutes in terms of hierarchy of power. Concepts, laws, and platonic's such as those can infact be made by higher powers that will it.

That doesn't make any goddamn sense lmao

You're basically arguing that an object of a paradigm can exist outside of its own paradigm. A logical paradox. The very concept of all things possible encompasses literally all things possible. Arguing otherwise is arbitrary nonsense.

That's how virtually every fantasy universe works. From the chaotic forces of a primordial universe, one or more intelligences or forces begin to form. These entities/forces then begin imposing some form order onto the primordial chaos, allowing for the rise of other beings either through direct creation or as a consequence of the nature of the order imposed. This holds for universes like D&D, Pathfinder, LotR, Elder Scrolls, etc. If we found the Light and Void were created by the First Ones, that would be the least important retcon in the history of Warcraft as it has not impacted the story in any meaningful way.

The Void Lords came about by clashing with the Light? Being pure void? Huh?

No this isn't like every fantasy universe lmao. You have no idea what you're talking about. Creator gods don't exist in a space of opposing forces. They classically exist in realms of nothingness. Not even in real mythology do they. In Greek myth, Chaos is first.

[Magical Mudcrab]

The Void Lords came about by clashing with the Light? Being pure void? Huh?

No this isn't like every fantasy universe lmao. You have no idea what you're talking about. Creator gods don't exist in a space of opposing forces. They classically exist in realms of nothingness. Not even in real mythology do they. In Greek myth, Chaos is first.

OK, so I'm not sure you read my post or simply did not understand it.

Sentient beings coming before absolute forces of certainty and probability? Seriously?

That's how virtually every fantasy universe works. From the chaotic forces of a primordial universe, one or more intelligences or forces begin to form. These entities/forces then begin imposing some form order onto the primordial chaos, allowing for the rise of other beings either through direct creation or as a consequence of the nature of the order imposed.

You implied that sentience arising before cosmic forces was a strange concept when sentience arises from primordial chaos, or simply out of nothing, all of the time in fantasy settings. This is something you even note in your response to me with the Greek Titans/gods arising from Chaos, with Judeo-Christian-Islamic creation stories of God existing and creating everything from nothing being something that could also be pointed to. In that, we appear to agree, which is why I'm now confused why you were you seemed to think the idea of the First Ones existing before the Light and Void seemed strange. It's a change, but the idea that the cosmic forces (such as Light and Void) in Warcraft came after a sentience arose (in the form of the First Ones) would not be some alien concept to fantasy settings, and in Warcraft specifically whether the Light and Void were created by some preexisting intelligence does not impact the story in a meaningful way.

[Kokolums]

The lore is that of a 12 year old child. Ignore it.

[Pebrocks The Warlock]

The lore is that of a 12 year old child. Ignore it.

So why not ignore the thread?

[Jamais]

I hate using this word so please excuse it, but I feel like they're raping the Lich King's and Arthas' lore for The Jailer and Anduin's story this expansion.

They change the past to justify the new stuff, but then the past doesn't make sense anymore and they've been doing it for a couple expansions now and seem to be like they're just going to keep doing it.

Disagree with this.

I think the story about Jailer and SL enhanced the original Arthas's story, not ''raped'' it. I think the same about Draenei retcon.

You see, original Arthas story is almost a carbon copy of Anakin from SW. Yes, people love those kind of stories, doesn't change the fact it wasn't original in the slightest, just adapted to Warcraft universe. I would argue that WoTLK made that same story worse, since during Wrath, Arthas almost felt like a scooby doo villain, with his MUAHAHAHA i will spare you for my amusement now champions.

[Super Dickmann]

He is guilty of being a mortal master-manipulator, whose name isnt Sylvanas, and of being a previous LK whose name isnt Arthas.
Those are the worst sins imaginable in the eyes of the writers.
Therefore, they have made it their mission to either fully ignore, or stomp him in the dirt, every chance they get.

They got rid of Ner'zhul as well as Arthas leading up to Wrath of the Lich King. They replaced both for a generic evil villain known only as the Lich King.

And now that more backstory to death magic, the Lich King and such is being explained it makes sense to touch some of the loose ends. So Ner'zhul showing up makes sense. In the book it's never confirmed he's gone, just that his form 'vanishes', which could just be temporary.

It really gets me how it's not a new thing, like I and @AwkwardSquirtle mentioned even from the very start when Metzen and the old guard were still around they just ditched Ner'zhul entirely despite him being the blueprint of every other undead overlord manipulator in the setting, of which all others are just pale imitations. People have bitched about me and others saying this before, but the Lich King in Wrath is entirely carried by the build up not just to Arthas, the main character of WC3 but also by Ner'zhul and this bland combination that keeps the model of one and next to nothing from the other and only speaks in threatening one liners functions entirely based on the goodwill gathered in the RTS. If you want the Wrath Lich King without the backstory that does all the legwork for him, left to stand purely on his own merits, you've got the Jailer and we all know what a compelling character he is. Sylvanas herself is as much an imitation in scheming of Ner'zhul as Lich King as she is of Arthas, except much dumber and less successful. The only one to really work as Lich King besides Ner'zhul is Bolvar, but only in Legion and even that is because he's the closest to Ner'zhul in method, guy stuck in a block of ice on a chair commanding undead legions in complex plans, natch.

The fact that Ner'zhul is not just an orc, but the main orc or that he did everything associated with the LK in WC3 never comes up. His past as a shaman is mentioned once and only in Alliance content where it has no relevance and you know how often the fact that liches were made out of orcs comes up? Not a single time, in any game, ever. I don't think it's even brought up outside of the WC3 manual. Not that Arthas gets out much better, given how all of his Death Knights traits, from drive, to snappy dialogue to petty villainy are removed in Wrath, but at least his backstory gets mentioned since he can sell copies whereas Ner'zhul, not so much.

[Soon-TM]

Chronicle and it's establishing cosmic lore with a foundation was a damned mistake. I firmly believe it's just asspulls from here on.

From the moment that they turned Chronicles into "the Titans' PoV" (instead of the "bible of Warcraft" they were supposed to be) the whole thing has been a sad joke. And it's reaching Saurfang levels of sadness here in SL.

[Houle]

It really gets me how it's not a new thing, like I and @AwkwardSquirtle mentioned even from the very start when Metzen and the old guard were still around they just ditched Ner'zhul entirely despite him being the blueprint of every other undead overlord manipulator in the setting, of which all others are just pale imitations. People have bitched about me and others saying this before, but the Lich King in Wrath is entirely carried by the build up not just to Arthas, the main character of WC3 but also by Ner'zhul and this bland combination that keeps the model of one and next to nothing from the other and only speaks in threatening one liners functions entirely based on the goodwill gathered in the RTS. If you want the Wrath Lich King without the backstory that does all the legwork for him, left to stand purely on his own merits, you've got the Jailer and we all know what a compelling character he is. Sylvanas herself is as much an imitation in scheming of Ner'zhul as Lich King as she is of Arthas, except much dumber and less successful. The only one to really work as Lich King besides Ner'zhul is Bolvar, but only in Legion and even that is because he's the closest to Ner'zhul in method, guy stuck in a block of ice on a chair commanding undead legions in complex plans, natch.

The fact that Ner'zhul is not just an orc, but the main orc or that he did everything associated with the LK in WC3 never comes up. His past as a shaman is mentioned once and only in Alliance content where it has no relevance and you know how often the fact that liches were made out of orcs comes up? Not a single time, in any game, ever. I don't think it's even brought up outside of the WC3 manual. Not that Arthas gets out much better, given how all of his Death Knights traits, from drive, to snappy dialogue to petty villainy are removed in Wrath, but at least his backstory gets mentioned since he can sell copies whereas Ner'zhul, not so much.

its because of arthas's popularity. the writers realized that arthas, not ner'zhul, became the ultra-popular character after WC3.
so now they had the problem that people wanted arthas, but arthas was already gone as a character, merged with ner'zhul.
so from that moment on, ner'zhul was an issue, since he took away from arthas "badassery". by killing him and then ignoring him as much as they could, it seemed to most players who didnt play WC3, that arthas was the one who did everything. that he was the big badass.
basically, ner'zhul is hated bc he was in the way of arthas being his own boss.
ner'zhul is perhaps the single, once-great character who blizz fucked over the most.
hell, alternate ner'zhul was the only one of the seven main warlords in WoD to not have received his own video or comic. kargath, grom, durotan and kilrogg were all featured in "lords of war" videos, while gul'dan, blackhand and even fckn FENRIS received webcomics on the official site. its a sad joke

[TheFirstOnes]

The lore is that of a 12 year old child. Ignore it.

No it's not. It actually makes a lot of sense if you actually look into it.

- - - Updated - - -

From the moment that they turned Chronicles into "the Titans' PoV" (instead of the "bible of Warcraft" they were supposed to be) the whole thing has been a sad joke. And it's reaching Saurfang levels of sadness here in SL.

Ok? That just means the Titans have an infallible viewpoint of the Cosmos, and that they're not omniscient, or 100% knowledgeable of the Cosmos and its true nature. Why would they? They're beings of Order, and their viewpoints are mostly aimed toward the Nether (AKA the realm of Chaos/Disorder), and the Great Dark.

- - - Updated - - -

The Bible is also infallible, ya know. It in itself is made by the viewpoints of mortal men, and their interpretation of God and his will.

[Varodoc]

There is more to this than what meets the eye.

The First Ones might have forged the universe but it is possible that one of them became corrupted or twisted and turned into the first of the Void Lords, from which all Shadow originated. The progenitor of all Void.

[Aeluron Lightsong]

Yes cause point of view has NEVER been a point of contension or conflict ever..right?


right?.................