This expansion showcased how people do not enjoy m+ at all

[chiddie]

M+ are fun but I hope for other tuning passes because atm the dungeons difficulty has not ANY equilibrium. We pass from the “I’m doing it semi-afk (MoTS)” to the “1 wipe and we are done (SD)”.

Also affixes add ZERO fun apart from Prideful, that almost no one will see because 90% of playerbase will just hang in the 7-9 bracket forever.

[procne]

M+ is drop dead easy. It's the community itself of overglorified LFR raiders who make it hard.

Run it with any competent guild. It's a cake walk. The loot very obviously does not match the effort required, and with 9.0.5, they are yet again trivializing mid tier raid progression with overrewarding M+.

Why is it that heroic raids give the appropriate ilvl rewards for it's easy difficulty, yet M+ is overrewarding?

How is M+ overrewarding? 200 ilvl gear for +10 keys does not feel like overrewarding to me. While I can easily kill some heroic bosses with my guild, I can barely time a +10 key with them. I think many heroic bosses are easier than timed +10 key

[antelope591]

M+ is drop dead easy. It's the community itself of overglorified LFR raiders who make it hard.

Run it with any competent guild. It's a cake walk. The loot very obviously does not match the effort required, and with 9.0.5, they are yet again trivializing mid tier raid progression with overrewarding M+.

Why is it that heroic raids give the appropriate ilvl rewards for it's easy difficulty, yet M+ is overrewarding?

Heroic is in no way harder than KSM though. Its a trivial difficulty past the first few weeks of a tier. So M+ loot being equivalent to heroic makes perfect sense. Its just that Mythic is in an outlier right now by being far more difficult than any other content.

[Nnyco]

Enjoying m+ and wanting it to give apropriate gear are not mutual exclusive.

[intenz]

I don't enjoy them on my main but thats because it's damage dealer. DPS role is extremely boring in m+ and I mostly enjoy tanking and especially healing them on my alts.

DPS is just brainlessy following tank and interrupting/CC certain mobs and blast your dps cooldowns. On my tank I choose the tempo and route and on healer it's fun to correct people's small mistakes by keeping them alive and overall pushing my healing capability to limit if run's tempo is high.

High keys depend on the competency of the dps more than the tank/healer... if dps is boring maybe try running something higher than a +6... I find tanking utterly mundane especially this expansion. Just follow a dratnos MDT path and run away from everything, such fun, not.

[Argorwal]

How is M+ overrewarding? 200 ilvl gear for +10 keys does not feel like overrewarding to me. While I can easily kill some heroic bosses with my guild, I can barely time a +10 key with them. I think many heroic bosses are easier than timed +10 key

My experience has been the opposite.

Doing a +10 for a weekly 220 item is massively easier to accomplish than a heroic SLG or Sire kill.

+7 is 213 in the vault, same as heroic, and massively easier than even shriekwing.

I understand that mythic+ tends to under reward the end of dungeon gear and over reward the weekly chest to balance each other out, but it still remains by far the easiest source of good gear every week.

I mean you can fail a +14 or kill 3/10 mythic bosses both for the same vault reward of a single 226 despite the massive difficulty difference. That isn’t even talking about the logistical nightmare of 20 people, same sever, and raid ID lockouts.

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Yep, this.

Cata Heroics were fun because CC mattered. Healer mana mattered. DPS had to do more than just AOE everything down asap.

Cata heroics being queable is what made them have their high difficulty.

Massive roll of the dice if your team is any decent.

[Guidance]

i know so many ppl that enjoy, but they are doing pvp even hating pvp like rgb, just to get gear

you can say both, but on my litle friendzone they are doing anything to get gear first

[Glorious Leader]

How is M+ overrewarding? 200 ilvl gear for +10 keys does not feel like overrewarding to me. While I can easily kill some heroic bosses with my guild, I can barely time a +10 key with them. I think many heroic bosses are easier than timed +10 key

This has been my experience as well. M+ is massively over tuned and under rewarding while heroic raiding is a joke.

[procne]

My experience has been the opposite.

Doing a +10 for a weekly 220 item is massively easier to accomplish than a heroic SLG or Sire kill.

+7 is 213 in the vault, same as heroic, and massively easier than even shriekwing.

I understand that mythic+ tends to under reward the end of dungeon gear and over reward the weekly chest to balance each other out, but it still remains by far the easiest source of good gear every week.

I mean you can fail a +14 or kill 3/10 mythic bosses both for the same vault reward of a single 226 despite the massive difficulty difference. That isn’t even talking about the logistical nightmare of 20 people, same sever, and raid ID lockouts.

First, you are comparing to 2 heroic bosses, while there are 7 others which are much easier, and they also give 213 loot

Second, I was speaking mainly about the loot you get from the instance, not the vault. The fact that vault gives loot 16 ilvl higher than the instance itself is sign of another problem, and source of further frustration. Instance loot quickly becomes useless and is vastly undertuned for the skill required to get it. To the point where the only upgrades come from the vault. Killing heroic bosses gives you ilvl 213 loot, and ilvl 213 options in the vault. Why does m+ give so powerful options in the vault, and so weak loot? It is not healthy when all the effort put into m+ is done not for the loot from the instance but this one item from the vault. And this vault lottery most often screwing you up.

This week again, for both of my chars, one ilvl 207, other one 197, I trashed vault items (220 and 216) simply because they were not an upgrade. And the loot I can get from dungeons is worse than the gear expected to do those dungeons. It is not very healthy when the main source of upgrades is considered to be this one weekly random item.

I think it would be much healthier if the vault items were just a bonus, an additional chance for the loot, as it is for raids, rather than the main source of upgrades.

[Glorious Leader]

First, you are comparing to 2 heroic bosses, while there are 7 others which are much easier, and they also give 213 loot

Second, I was speaking mainly about the loot you get from the instance, not the vault. The fact that vault gives loot 16 ilvl higher than the instance itself is sign of another problem, and source of further frustration. Instance loot quickly becomes useless and is vastly undertuned for the skill required to get it. To the point where the only upgrades come from the vault. Killing heroic bosses gives you ilvl 213 loot, and ilvl 213 options in the vault. Why does m+ give so powerful options in the vault, and so weak loot? It is not healthy when all the effort put into m+ is done not for the loot from the instance but this one item from the vault. And this vault lottery most often screwing you up.

This week again, for both of my chars, one ilvl 207, other one 197, I trashed vault items (220 and 216) simply because they were not an upgrade. And the loot I can get from dungeons is worse than the gear expected to do those dungeons. It is not very healthy when the main source of upgrades is considered to be this one weekly random item.

Part of this is the 197 campaign loot but that isn't the real problem It just exacerbates the fact that Blizzard was really hellbent on taking an axe to m+ this expansion. Like BFA was m+ or die. You basically didn't need to raid except for like maybe a trinket I guess. But SL swings that balance way the fuck over. I do it because I got a good group of people to roll with and we want the achieve. If I was pugging it for gear F That

[munkeyinorbit]

But that they enjoy the loot it gives.

In BfA you could reach Mythic level of gear by just doing a weekly +15. People were so used to easy gearing like that, that they cry about it this expansion.
People do not enjoy m+ for the content it brings, they solely enjoy to do it because of the loot it gives.

Only a small minority seems to enjoy m+ so much, the rest only cares about the gear.
So many people crying that the gear isn't a high enough ilvl and that it's not often dropped.

I thought that people enjoyed this content regardless? I thought m+ was fun? What happened?

Can't you do the same thing now? Except 14s?

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Also that.

I feel that the difficulty of m+ is above the ilvl drops, and the drop rate

Which means gearing up to beat that content more easily is all about the vault rewards.

Which means blizzard wants you to :
- grind Rio to reach lvl14 acceptance level
- do m+ for, at least, as many weeks as you have gear slots.

It's all a calculated player engagement in the long term scheme.

It's exactly the same is it was in bfa. Except the top spamable loot is 3 ilvls less. There is basically no difference to the formula.

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How is M+ overrewarding? 200 ilvl gear for +10 keys does not feel like overrewarding to me. While I can easily kill some heroic bosses with my guild, I can barely time a +10 key with them. I think many heroic bosses are easier than timed +10 key

How is that different to bfa? It rewards 203? The real reward is the vault which is superior to heroic raiding. You still get the piece even if you didn't time it. You have to kill 3 bosses in mythic to get a better reward in raiding.

[Argorwal]

First, you are comparing to 2 heroic bosses, while there are 7 others which are much easier, and they also give 213 loot

Second, I was speaking mainly about the loot you get from the instance, not the vault. The fact that vault gives loot 16 ilvl higher than the instance itself is sign of another problem, and source of further frustration. Instance loot quickly becomes useless and is vastly undertuned for the skill required to get it. To the point where the only upgrades come from the vault. Killing heroic bosses gives you ilvl 213 loot, and ilvl 213 options in the vault. Why does m+ give so powerful options in the vault, and so weak loot? It is not healthy when all the effort put into m+ is done not for the loot from the instance but this one item from the vault. And this vault lottery most often screwing you up.

This week again, for both of my chars, one ilvl 207, other one 197, I trashed vault items (220 and 216) simply because they were not an upgrade. And the loot I can get from dungeons is worse than the gear expected to do those dungeons. It is not very healthy when the main source of upgrades is considered to be this one weekly random item.

I think it would be much healthier if the vault items were just a bonus, an additional chance for the loot, as it is for raids, rather than the main source of upgrades.

The reason end of dungeon loot is lower is because it has no lockout.

That is the reason.

And I compared 220 to 220 which is a +10 to the last 2 of heroic.

213 is for a +7 to bosses 1-8 of the raid.

[Glorious Leader]

The reason end of dungeon loot is lower is because it has no lockout.

That is the reason.

And I compared 220 to 220 which is a +10 to the last 2 of heroic.

213 is for a +7 to bosses 1-8 of the raid.

The reason its lower is because people cried about being forced to do m+ in bfa and raiding being pointless.

[Lolites]

Remember that in BFA seasons 1-3 the max reward was at a +10 for a weekly item 5 item levels under mythic.

A +15 for an item equal to mythic raiding only started in 8.3 (season 4).

yeah, bcs before 8.3 the reward could titanforge to much higher level, since they removed tf in 8.3 they had to make weekly chest worth it

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Amateur sports?
Just look at the olympic games, most people there don't get anything out of it and train very hard every day of their lives.

when did they stop giving medals at olympic games?
not to mention fame and money (top athletes get comercial deals and shit like that)

[BananaHandsB]

You could really say this about any aspect of the game. A big part of any aspect of an MMO are the rewards, and that feeling of meaningful progression as you gear up. Remove the carrot, and all you got is a stick.

[Cyanu]

But that they enjoy the loot it gives.

In BfA you could reach Mythic level of gear by just doing a weekly +15. People were so used to easy gearing like that, that they cry about it this expansion.
People do not enjoy m+ for the content it brings, they solely enjoy to do it because of the loot it gives.

Only a small minority seems to enjoy m+ so much, the rest only cares about the gear.
So many people crying that the gear isn't a high enough ilvl and that it's not often dropped.

I thought that people enjoyed this content regardless? I thought m+ was fun? What happened?

nonsense, your conclussion is out of touch

people do not enjoy investing time for subpar rewards, that's all

if mythic raiding/glad rewarded only ilvl 210 loot how many would bother doing them and how crazy would the complaining be? does that mean they don't enjoy raiding or pvp?

[Alydael]

What's to enjoy about M+?

It's literally the exact same dungeon you already ran on normal....... and on heroic...... and on Mythic......?

Who wouldn't enjoy running the exact same dungeon, 100 x, just a little harder with some affixes? We all know they get better each time you run them!

That's before getting into the whole timer thing. Let's be honest- just slapping a timer on something is a real cheap and easy way to make something more difficult. You don't even have to do design work or do anything- just attach a timer. Simple, cheap and easy.

Then we have the wonderfully inviting, nice and kind community that surrounds M+ A prime example of how a gaming community should be!

I am stunned that people don't just love mythic plus!

[RobertMugabe]

I really really dislike M+ and a lot of people do too, however at this point if I had to guess I'd say that most active players actually like m+ as those that didn't probably quit.

If there's anything to like about Classic then it's definitely the dungeons. There are issues, but doing dungeons (repeatedly) is so much more fun and feels so much rewarding too. It also gives me a true RPG feeling and the challenge is in the execution. I don't like speedrunning as a requirement at all.

[T-34]

What's to enjoy about M+?

It's literally the exact same dungeon you already ran on normal....... and on heroic...... and on Mythic......?

Who wouldn't enjoy running the exact same dungeon, 100 x, just a little harder with some affixes?

That's before getting into the whole timer thing. Let's be honest- just slapping a timer on something is a real cheap and easy way to make something more difficult. You don't even have to do design work or do anything- just attach a timer. Simple, cheap and easy.

Then we have the wonderfully inviting, nice and kind community that surrounds M+ A prime example of how a gaming community should be!

Well, plenty of people enjoy M+, you can go to raider.io and check out for yourself how many M+ have already been done in SL and how many unique characters have timed a key.
And the M+ community is one of the best in WoW because here people are measured on their skill, experience and respect for other players time.
And it is also one of the most inviting and egalitarian - you are not judged on who you are, but what you can do.

[stormrage666]

I like m+ for achievem, seasonal achieve and reward (mount)

I also like because is some sort of tracking performance... just the same I liked the Proving Grounds...

a shame I didn't get all proving grounds achieve, and I might have even missed the time for that =(