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  1. #341
    Quote Originally Posted by cparle87 View Post
    We had that in Legion and BFA. It was called titanforging. The elites hated the filthy casuals having good stuff and having to grind old content and everyone else hated feeling pressured into doing content they didn't like in hopes of fishing up an upgrade.
    I can understand that. But there should still be some gear progression outside of M+ and heroic raids. There always has been.
    I know, this is blizzard again trying to educate/force people into that content. I don't like it.
    I don't need high end gear, just something to look forward to.

  2. #342
    Quote Originally Posted by Yriel View Post
    I can understand that. But there should still be some gear progression outside of M+ and heroic raids. There always has been.
    I know, this is blizzard again trying to educate/force people into that content. I don't like it.
    I don't need high end gear, just something to look forward to.
    I'm not sure what level gear is available from M+ and heroics (since I no interest in either), but Covenant gear is pretty decent and can be upgraded to 197 easily, which is more than sufficient for casual content. I'm assuming there'll be additional catch-up gear available in 9.1.

  3. #343
    Quote Originally Posted by Dhrizzle View Post
    The OP's version of limited time is 4+ hours every evening plus extra time during quiet periods at work, and his complaint about content is there's nothing to do because there is so much he can't possibly do it on four or more characters simultaneously so he doesn't want to do any of it.
    Yeah, because there are 4 covenants and 4 armor types, that literally say "complete us on 16 characters". It's true heaven for casual player. And BFA's "you can grind it infinitely on one character only" - is boring as hell. Do you understand, what Sisyphean task means? It's pointless waste of effort.

    I don't care about Wow 11.0, if it's not solo-MMO. No half-measures - just perfect xpack.

  4. #344
    Quote Originally Posted by WowIsDead64 View Post
    Yeah, because there are 4 covenants and 4 armor types, that literally say "complete us on 16 characters".
    No, that says "you can complete this with up to 16 characters and get something new every time". Alternately, you can collect all appearances with just 4 and get all class-independent stuff with just 1.

    Do you understand, what Sisyphean task means?
    It means a task that cannot be completed but you are still compelled to do. So WoW doesn't count since you can just drop it if you don't feel it.

  5. #345
    Quote Originally Posted by WowIsDead64 View Post
    Yeah, because there are 4 covenants and 4 armor types, that literally say "complete us on 16 characters". It's true heaven for casual player. And BFA's "you can grind it infinitely on one character only" - is boring as hell. Do you understand, what Sisyphean task means? It's pointless waste of effort.
    Grinding out every single cosmetic is not something a casual player does.

  6. #346
    Quote Originally Posted by WowIsDead64 View Post
    Overall major problems with SL continue and I even start regretting buying it, because it really looks like "SL is better than BFA" statement was nothing but aggressive marketing.

    Problems are:
    1) No fixes planned for current content both in 9.0.5 and 9.1. "Anima rewards are xpack-wide" is just plain BS. Everything beyond 3-4 weeks of grind isn't worth doing, sorry. It's the same problem, we had in BFA, where grind was so long, that rewards were becoming obsoleted before I could get them. I don't care about M+ and mythic raids, because I don't do them.
    2) 9.1 and flying is delayed too much again. Something like 8-10 months since release isn't acceptable for me. There is nothing to do for me in game till that time.
    3) No new content for me in 9.1, except getting flying after several months of extra renown levels grind and continuing to level new alts to get obsoleted rewards.

    This makes me want to wait till 9.2 or something like that. And waiting for so long to get actual content makes me think, if buying SL is actually worth it?
    why would flying suddenly give you content?
    For the Alliance, and for Azeroth!

  7. #347
    Quote Originally Posted by gcsmith View Post
    why would flying suddenly give you content?
    Flying makes unrewarding grinds more tolerable.
    Quote Originally Posted by Elim Garak View Post
    No fucking way. The worst idea since democracy.

  8. #348
    Quote Originally Posted by WowIsDead64 View Post
    It's pointless waste of effort.
    Much like every position you've asserted or thread you've ever started here, right?
    Mods are too busy to be bothered with moderation...but still post nonsense in threads.

    Please do not contact me about moderation - Reach out to another member.

  9. #349
    Quote Originally Posted by Yriel View Post
    I can understand that. But there should still be some gear progression outside of M+ and heroic raids. There always has been.
    I know, this is blizzard again trying to educate/force people into that content. I don't like it.
    I don't need high end gear, just something to look forward to.
    There is. As of right now you can get 197 gear, 13 above mythic zeros, from world quests and rare mobs. That's right. Content better than mythic ~+4s and LFR, from the outside world.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Dhrizzle View Post
    And yet the simplest solution to that was to only allow War/Titanforging to take you up to the next level (i.e. Raid Finder TF = Normal Normal, Normal TF = Hard Normal etc.) and use a currency to buy the upgrades if RNG works against you.
    Do you mean allowing a raid finder TF to reach normal then be able to upgrade it more with currency? Or being able to buy gear you could them upgrade with currency to fill unlucky slots?

    Either way the tryhards and wannabe tryhards will still feel pressured to farm the currency even if they hate the content that rewards it, hating themselves and coming onto these forums to complain as they do it. I say tryhards as in the legit ones, and wannabes as in the guys who think if they copy the truly skilled players they'll succeed more. Remember being "forced" to run Maw of Souls or island expeditions constantly for AP levels? I don't, and I'm a druid and always had my artifacts and necks capped out before the caps went up.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nyel View Post
    It's clearly designed to keep / push MAUs. It's so obvious, Shadowlands is leaking this design approach in every aspect of its game design. It's designed to keep you busy with mostly unfun tasks as long as possible.
    You do realize if you log in at all in the month you count as one MAU, right? Whether you immediately log out or clear the map and do all +15s every week. People who go around crying "wah they just want to farm MAUs by giving us so much unfun stuff to do" don't even get how it works.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by WowIsDead64 View Post
    Yeah, because there are 4 covenants and 4 armor types, that literally say "complete us on 16 characters". It's true heaven for casual player. And BFA's "you can grind it infinitely on one character only" - is boring as hell. Do you understand, what Sisyphean task means? It's pointless waste of effort.
    And Legion said complete the story on 12 characters to see the story and get all the goodies. Nobody says you have to get all 16 armor sets. That's a goal you're forcing on yourself. If it makes you that angry then show some self control and don't play so much it makes you angry. People complain too much about Blizzard holding your hand and protecting you from yourself by timegating things and delaying M+ and mythic raids by a week, when we really need more of it. Also, in case you ignored it, reread what Huth quoted to you. He hit the nail on the head.
    The most difficult thing to do is accept that there is nothing wrong with things you don't like and accept that people can like things you don't.

  10. #350
    Quote Originally Posted by Kalium View Post
    Flying makes unrewarding grinds more tolerable.
    If they're unrewarding, why bother?
    For the Alliance, and for Azeroth!

  11. #351
    Quote Originally Posted by gcsmith View Post
    If they're unrewarding, why bother?
    Could be the reason I’ve unsubbed
    Quote Originally Posted by Elim Garak View Post
    No fucking way. The worst idea since democracy.

  12. #352
    Quote Originally Posted by oldgeezer View Post
    I'm not sure what level gear is available from M+ and heroics (since I no interest in either), but Covenant gear is pretty decent and can be upgraded to 197 easily, which is more than sufficient for casual content. I'm assuming there'll be additional catch-up gear available in 9.1.
    Yeah but as i said earlier, there is no progression. Through the covenant and WQs you quickly get gear that is better than heroic dungeons or LFR and is almost at par with normal raids, there is nothing left to do.
    Thats really bad design.

  13. #353
    Quote Originally Posted by Yriel View Post
    Yeah but as i said earlier, there is no progression. Through the covenant and WQs you quickly get gear that is better than heroic dungeons or LFR and is almost at par with normal raids, there is nothing left to do.
    Thats really bad design.
    If you have 197 gear, but don't want to do normal / heroic / mythic raids, mythic 7+ for drops, mythic 2+ for great vault, or any rated pvp, what do you want/ need better gear for?

    You talk about nothing left to do, but thats not true. You just don't want to do it. And at 197, you can do every other content more than sufficiently.

    The something to look forward to is cosmetics. Seeing as how you don't need the gear. Or experiencing all 4 covenants.

    There's not gonna be unlimited solo content in an MMOrpg

  14. #354
    Quote Originally Posted by Nyel View Post
    It's clearly designed to keep / push MAUs. It's so obvious, Shadowlands is leaking this design approach in every aspect of its game design. It's designed to keep you busy with mostly unfun tasks as long as possible.
    That must be why it's the first time since WoD that I can log almost only for raids and M+ and not feel like I'm missing out at all. And unlike WoD this time around the world and dungeons aren't completely useless so that's a big plus.
    It is all that is left unsaid upon which tragedies are built -Kreia

    The internet: where to every action is opposed an unequal overreaction.

  15. #355
    I dont understand why this is an incredibly difficult thing to solve.

    Here's your goals: We want players to move from world/LFD content into LFG content. We feel that players have more fun and are more likely to retain their sub when they make friends in game and play with them regularly. LFG is a vehicle to transition players from PUG content to Guild/friend content. Through participating in LFG content, players are more likely to meet and befriend other players with similar goals and objectives. If you can get players into guilds, they are more likely to treat the game not only as a game, but also as a social experience. Ergo, players will stay subscribed longer.

    Heres your barriers: Players may not enjoy the playstyle of LFG content (timers for example). Players may not enjoy high pressure gameplay mechanics and the invariable demands/judgements from their fellow players. Some players may simply not have the mechanical skill to deal with the complexity and technical demands of this content. Some players simply do not enjoy competitive/ladder gameplay. They are not motivated by it. These players will have great difficulty moving through PUG style systems as a transition vehicle, but would have no principle objections to playing high end content in a less tox... i mean, 'demanding' space (with friends and family or guilds).

    So you take those two things and you craft a solution. If your goal is to push people into high end content (and i'll be honest, im a huge fan of the donut-era blizz), then you need to address the barriers of entry and look for ways to nudge people into those systems. You look at why players dont want to engage in that content and you look for ways to address those issues. And if you have a system with multiple difficulty levels, you take advantage with a more generous difficulty curve and greater success/reward at lower levels. On top of this, you also recognise that no matter how much you feel players should be pushed into that type of content, you make sure that players who do not want to play this are well catered for outside of this. You look for ways to bring those players together in non-power progression ways (community events, updates to guild finder system, invasions, rep grinds etc). You give them something to engage with that lets them feel like they have a (personal) goal in game.

    - - - Updated - - -

    So i know you might say, 'well, yeah ipps, you've identified the issue, but im not seeing much in the way of solutions'.

    I just pulled this idea out of my butt while going to the bathroom as a kind of idea about what i mean.

    Lets take valor. Lets also assume that player 1 has not and likely will not do Mythic plus. They get this valor in their day to day stuff and likely have no way to spend it (well, except mat shipments). But we WANT that player to get invested in that system. We dont just want them thinking 'oh great, another useless currency'. We want them to WANT to do their world quest callings and feel incentivised by not only anima (cosmetic progression) but also valor (power progression). How can we do that? The barrier here is that they need to do mythic plus to get the up-gradable gear drops in order to spend that valor.

    Solution: As a weekend event now and again (once a fortnight/month), you have 'challenge mode heroic dungeons'. They dont have all the bells and whistles of a regular mythic plus. But they have one or two features. Maybe an affix and a timer. Its on LFD (separate from normal heroic dungeons). And it drops lets arbitrarily say 'mythic 2' ilevel (UPGRADABLE) gear. Plus, it counts for your base level weekly vault.

    Well what have we done? First, as a once a fortnight/month weekend event and not a core system, it doesnt undermine the veracity of all the core systems in game. The reward is LIKELY to be lower than the covenant gear anyway. Second, we give players stuck in their power progression a means into a SLOWER but sustainable progression system. Third, we INVOLVE them with 9.0.5 currency system. We give them a reason to WANT valor and let them find ways outside of this to grind it playing the content they want to play. Fourth, we teach them some of the mechanisms behind the affixes in M+ lowering that skill gap incentivising them to make that jump into M+. And fifth, we give them a reason to log in and actually play the game between those events (grinding valor for their new upgradable gear).
    Last edited by ippollite; 2021-02-25 at 05:04 AM.

  16. #356
    Quote Originally Posted by ippollite View Post
    ...
    I would do M+0, because Mythics are resurrection of that old pre LFD dungeons. They've appeared, because Blizzard really think, that LFD killed dungeons, while it actually revived them, cuz they were almost dead at moment, when LFD was released. Problem is - they wanted to sit on two chairs, i.e. prolong dungeons' life time, so they implemented timers and "infinite" difficulty ladder there. But this thing is what actually ruins Mythics for me. First of all I hate time runs. Back in old WotLK days I was doing dungeons for fun, not challenge. It was that "skip everything and get badges from last boss ASAP" crowd, that ruined dungeons and turned them into time runs. So, I guess, I would enjoy Mythics, only if I would play them with IRL friends. Yeah, I had IRL friends in this game back in old days. But they're no longer playing and I don't want to find new ones, because I don't want to put social obligations on me. Yeah, I don't want to be obligated to play this game, when I don't want to do it. And I don't want to be obligated to play with friends, when I want to do my own business.

    But I agree, that the biggest problem with this game - is that Blizzard don't even try to find ways to solve problems with their game. Their game is way to "railed". They just say, that you have to play "this way" and that's it. You have to agree or quit. There is no room for "We have players with X demands and Y demands, that can contradict each other, so may be we'd implement some mode switch, that would allow us to satisfy them both". Currently it's something like "There is no game outside of M+ and raids", i.e. that old sweet "raid or die". Guys, who do M+ or raids automatically get enough gear and therefore character power to make everything else easy and therefore accessible for them. You do M+ for just 2 hours a day and hurr-durr you now have enough power to complete high Torghast floors. And guys, who do casual content, have to constantly struggle even with this causal content, because Blizzard tend to overtune it exactly to make it suitable for M+ guys. And casual content like Isle Expeditions and Torghast has major problem - you can't progress via this content itself. It always requires other kinds of contented as support.

    Here is graph, that explains problem. Yeah, difficulty of some content like M+ increases, but not exponentially, so it's compensated but growth of character power. But not all content has growth of difficulty. Some content is trivialized by this character power. And more power you have - more easy content you can do. This is what is called "slippering from difficulty curve". And casuals have to climb on this difficulty curve first. Not all of them want to do it.
    Last edited by WowIsDead64; 2021-02-25 at 06:23 AM.

    I don't care about Wow 11.0, if it's not solo-MMO. No half-measures - just perfect xpack.

  17. #357
    Quote Originally Posted by Dhrizzle View Post
    WoW has always been designed to keep people playing for extended periods, that's why since Vanilla we've had stuff like RNG loot, raid lockouts, busywork like reputation grinds and the ability to create alts to do it all over again. It's just before all the cool kids started using "MAU" as a buzzword people liked having stuff to do, in fact arguably the worst expansion for giving people a reason to stay subbed was WoD and that got massively slagged off.
    Not this much though. Shadowlands has reached the peak for this design philosophy, as many tasks are designed as tedious as possible - the infamous "only one mailbox in Oribos" is the best and most hilarious example for that. What the hell is the point to have just one mailbox in a hub city? What could be the intention behind this except making it as uncomfortable for players as possible? It's about the little nuisances that just add up to this experience. It's nothing so big that it instantly drives you away (maybe the loot situation in Shadowlands, but even that might not), it's just little pesky things that add up and get you... exhausted.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Jastall View Post
    That must be why it's the first time since WoD that I can log almost only for raids and M+ and not feel like I'm missing out at all. And unlike WoD this time around the world and dungeons aren't completely useless so that's a big plus.
    Aren't they? Besides the campaign, what's the point of the zones (except The Maw)? They're as pointless as they've been in WoD. And if you don't need the Maw stuff, that zone is pointless as well and only works as a gateway to Torghast for many, many players.
    MAGA - Make Alliance Great Again

  18. #358
    Quote Originally Posted by cparle87 View Post
    Do you mean allowing a raid finder TF to reach normal then be able to upgrade it more with currency? Or being able to buy gear you could them upgrade with currency to fill unlucky slots?
    Raid finder TF would be same iLvl as Normal mode but not upgradable further, or regular raid finder loot could be upgraded twice to warforged then titanforged, not going above Norman's base iLvl.

    Either way the tryhards and wannabe tryhards will still feel pressured to farm the currency even if they hate the content that rewards it, hating themselves and coming onto these forums to complain as they do it. I say tryhards as in the legit ones, and wannabes as in the guys who think if they copy the truly skilled players they'll succeed more. Remember being "forced" to run Maw of Souls or island expeditions constantly for AP levels? I don't, and I'm a druid and always had my artifacts and necks capped out before the caps went up.
    Yeah sadly it's the same people who ruined the TF system in the first place. I always thought it was cool to get a randomly awesome item and it meant you do content just for that 1/100 tiny chance of a slight upgrade, but ultimately Blizz can't ignore the psychology of people who feel the system has a negative effect on them personally.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by WowIsDead64 View Post
    I would do M+0, because Mythics are resurrection of that old pre LFD dungeons. They've appeared, because Blizzard really think, that LFD killed dungeons, while it actually revived them, cuz they were almost dead at moment, when LFD was released.
    That isn't correct. WotLK was the era of "additional instances can not be launched" when so many people were running dungeons the servers couldn't cope. LFD was just a way of facilitating group formations without spamming /2 and as part of their lunch-break WoW philosophy at the time.

    What it ruined was their ability to make dungeons challenging at all, Cata quickly proved that a random matchmaking tool couldn't cope with anything even a fractions as challenging as TBC content and since then they struggled to make dungeons interesting but still accessible to the unwashed masses.

    Overall though I don't completely disagree with your point about Mythics and would like to see them opened up to LFD for players with higher iLvl loot to get even higher loot. Not the full meta game with keystones and timers and stuff so maybe it's more of a heroic+ mode I'd like.

    But I agree, that the biggest problem with this game - is that Blizzard don't even try to find ways to solve problems with their game. Their game is way to "railed". They just say, that you have to play "this way" and that's it. You have to agree or quit. There is no room for "We have players with X demands and Y demands, that can contradict each other, so may be we'd implement some mode switch, that would allow us to satisfy them both". Currently it's something like "There is no game outside of M+ and raids", i.e. that old sweet "raid or die". Guys, who do M+ or raids automatically get enough gear and therefore character power to make everything else easy and therefore accessible for them. You do M+ for just 2 hours a day and hurr-durr you now have enough power to complete high Torghast floors. And guys, who do casual content, have to constantly struggle even with this causal content, because Blizzard tend to overtune it exactly to make it suitable for M+ guys. And casual content like Isle Expeditions and Torghast has major problem - you can't progress via this content itself. It always requires other kinds of contented as support.
    This expansion is amazing for players who want to stay casual and not touch raids or mythic dungeons. Just doing covenant stuff gets you a decent set of armour and a weapon which is more than enough to go through Torghast and get your legendaries sorted. A little bit of LFR gets rings and trinket and you're laughing.

  19. #359
    Quote Originally Posted by ellieg View Post
    If you have 197 gear, but don't want to do normal / heroic / mythic raids, mythic 7+ for drops, mythic 2+ for great vault, or any rated pvp, what do you want/ need better gear for?

    You talk about nothing left to do, but thats not true. You just don't want to do it. And at 197, you can do every other content more than sufficiently.

    The something to look forward to is cosmetics. Seeing as how you don't need the gear. Or experiencing all 4 covenants.

    There's not gonna be unlimited solo content in an MMOrpg
    I don't need better gear, i just want some gear progression outside of M+/heroic raids. Is that such a difficult concept to grasp? Every other extensions had that.
    For some reason they give you gear that invalidates heroic dungeons/LFR and most WQs right after you finished leveling.

    How much M+ would you play if the covenant quests would give everyone a full set of 226 gear? Probably not much, right? It's the same problem just 30 gear levels lower.

  20. #360
    By the way:

    “World of Warcraft player numbers fell back to normal levels as the excitement around November’s Shadowlands expansion subsided. From November to January, revenue fell by 61% and user numbers declined by 41% (these figures do not include China). This roughly matches the pattern seen for the past several expansions, though Shadowlands had a bigger launch. Blizzard does appear to have found a way to increase how often expansions are able to boost earnings. The publisher recently announced that it will be adding the 2007 Burning Crusade expansion into World of Warcraft: Classic this year. Alternating between releasing all-new and classic expansions could cause WoW revenue to spike annually for the near future, instead of every two years (the typical development time for the title’s expansions).”

    Investor talk vs. reality. This is clearly one of the main problems caused by the current direction of development (that took over this game since Ion is responsible for it). And therefore it makes sense to have 1 year of retail and 1 year of classic to disguise the shortcomings of retail.

    https://massivelyop.com/2021/02/24/s...t-shadowlands/
    MAGA - Make Alliance Great Again

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