Arthas did Nothing Wrong

[Traveler Voltin]

No...I don't read them much because they're typically filled with fluff and easy questions.

So basically they're retconning Arthas to make Sylvanas seem not so evil...peachy

what do you mean retcon? Arthas always had free will

[Ninix]

After seeing the latest patch cinematic, is Anduin responsible of what he did in it? if no, then the same goes for Arthas as he was under the Jailer influence all along.

Arthas acted like a short-minded d*ck driven by a crybaby behavior.
So yeah, he did wrong on so many levels, and a lot of it is on him, and only him.

[ThrashMetalFtw]

No...I don't read them much because they're typically filled with fluff and easy questions.

So basically they're retconning Arthas to make Sylvanas seem not so evil...peachy

Not really. This is another case of people making up their own headcanon, like when some people were convinced that the Old Gods were the ultimate big bads, despite there never being any reason to believe so.

It was never stated or even implied that Arthas was being mindcontrolled. WC3 (the original lore) makes it clear enough that Arthas is in control himself. Being influenced/subtly manipulated is not the same as being mind controlled.

Rise of the Lich King (the 2nd version of said lore) even reinforces the point that Arthas was in control himself further.


The only retcon is that Arthas was being influenced by the Jailer instead of the Lich King, which is a stupid retcon by itself.

[MikeBogina]

TBF...i dont even care anymore, i was trying to keep up with the story, but even that makes me want to kill myself. Ill just stop following wow altogether. Im fucking tired.

I've felt that before, but it's hard to stop when you've invested a lot into it and I dont just mean the game. Even when I'm not subbed for more than a year, I still try to follow the lore, even though I've opposed 90% of what they've done in the past few years.

[huth]

The only retcon is that Arthas was being influenced by the Jailer instead of the Lich King, which is a stupid retcon by itself.

More like "as well as", and it didn't do the Jailer much good. Basically, he was that annoying buzzing in the background that everybody just ignored.

[Kithelle]

Not really. This is another case of people making up their own headcanon, like when some people were convinced that the Old Gods were the ultimate big bads, despite there never being any reason to believe so.

It was never stated or even implied that Arthas was being mindcontrolled. WC3 (the original lore) makes it clear enough that Arthas is in control himself. Being influenced/subtly manipulated is not the same as being mind controlled.

Rise of the Lich King (the 2nd version of said lore) even reinforces the point that Arthas was in control himself further.


The only retcon is that Arthas was being influenced by the Jailer instead of the Lich King, which is a stupid retcon by itself.

I never said mind control but you have to be blind to say there wasn't any corruption, that Arthas was born pure evil and died pure evil.

[MikeBogina]

arthas had free will.

Arthas only had free will up until he killed Mal'ganis, which Ner'zhul did on purpose so he could remove one of his "jailers" and used Arthas' free will as an excuse. Afterwards he stripped all of his humanity and took full control of Arthas' actions.

From Chronicles 3, page 53

The Fate of Mal'ganis
Mal'ganis's death infuriated the dreadlords, but they did not punish the Lich King. The entity convinced the demons that the slaying was an unfortunate accident. Arthas Menethil had not been under his full control yet. Now he was, and the Lich King promised that the death knight would never again raise a hand against the dreadlords.

Please stop spreading misinformation

[Darkimpact]

Nerzul and Arthas both had free will, they were just influenced by the jailer. It has been openly stated they both messed up the jailers plan with their free will. Yes they most likely were doing things a bit more crazy than they usually would. That said, would you forgive a mass murderer because he was under the influence of a drug?

[Traveler Voltin]

Arthas only had free will up until he killed Mal'ganis, which Ner'zhul did on purpose so he could remove one of his "jailers" and used Arthas' free will as an excuse. Afterwards he stripped all of his humanity and took full control of Arthas' actions.

From Chronicles 3, page 53


Please stop spreading misinformation

Dev interview says he had free will.

[MikeBogina]

Dev interview says he had free will.

Literal Chronicle book says otherwise.

[Kallisto]

Arthas only had free will up until he killed Mal'ganis, which Ner'zhul did on purpose so he could remove one of his "jailers" and used Arthas' free will as an excuse. Afterwards he stripped all of his humanity and took full control of Arthas' actions.

From Chronicles 3, page 53


Please stop spreading misinformation

Here's a small fact for you.

Ner'zhul was bullshitting.

[MikeBogina]

Nerzul and Arthas both had free will, they were just influenced by the jailer. It has been openly stated they both messed up the jailers plan with their free will. Yes they most likely were doing things a bit more crazy than they usually would. That said, would you forgive a mass murderer because he was under the influence of a drug?

The Jailer's plan is weird. Like what was it? To go along with the Legion? Which would result in the Legion having Azeroth. If Arthas messed up his plans as the Lich King, was it not ripping the helm in half?

[Magical Mudcrab]

Arthas only had free will up until he killed Mal'ganis, which Ner'zhul did on purpose so he could remove one of his "jailers" and used Arthas' free will as an excuse. Afterwards he stripped all of his humanity and took full control of Arthas' actions.

From Chronicles 3, page 53


Please stop spreading misinformation

There's a few things wrong with what you're implying.
First, it's that we know Arthas was definitely not being fully controlled because of the Dev. Interview. While Arthas was under the effects of Domination and Death magic, he still had his own agency (albeit, in an altered mental state).
Second, we already know that Ner'zhul's plan to control Arthas did not work. Ner'zhul was going to take control of Arthas once he donned the Helm of Domination, and he told the Dreadlords what they needed to hear in order to fulfill his ambitions (i.e.: he lied to them). Ner'zhul may have planned to dominate Arthas' mind, and suppress it similarly to how the Jailer is doing to Anduin, but this never came to fruition.

[huth]

Arthas only had free will up until he killed Mal'ganis, which Ner'zhul did on purpose so he could remove one of his "jailers" and used Arthas' free will as an excuse. Afterwards he stripped all of his humanity and took full control of Arthas' actions.

From Chronicles 3, page 53


Please stop spreading misinformation

You, too. That quote just says that Ner'zhul told the demons he had full control over Arthas. Not that he actually did have that control.

[Musta]

I've felt that before, but it's hard to stop when you've invested a lot into it and I dont just mean the game. Even when I'm not subbed for more than a year, I still try to follow the lore, even though I've opposed 90% of what they've done in the past few years.

Yeah, its a fucking nightmare if you ask me, its so hard to unplug

[Soon-TM]

Arthas Menethil had not been under his full control yet.

How could Ner'zhul control Arthas, even if partially, when the latter didn't have either Frostmourne, the Helm or the Plate?

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You, too. That quote just says that Ner'zhul told the demons he had full control over Arthas. Not that he actually did have that control.

This is one of my favourite details. Ner'zhul was probably full of !@#$, and he knew it, but even so he managed to fool a bunch of dreadlords. Not a small feat /clap

[MikeBogina]

Here's a small fact for you.

Ner'zhul was bullshitting.

There's a few things wrong with what you're implying.
First, it's that we know Arthas was definitely not being fully controlled because of the Dev. Interview.

You, too. That quote just says that Ner'zhul told the demons he had full control over Arthas. Not that he actually did have that control.

you really gonna argue against the Chronicle... /sigh
Page 51

Through Frostmourne, the Lich King could now speak in Arthas's mind and guide his actions. He did not yet transform the prince into his slave. For the time being, he allowed Arthas to believe that he was in control of his own fate.
Arthas had one last act to perform before he took his place among the Scourge.

Sorry but that's canon, the first part I quoted aswell

Arthas Menethil had not been under his full control yet. Now he was

has nothing to do with the Lich King bullshitting Dreadlords, it's stated as fact by the narrator.
Your interview which contradicts this is stated about Arthas having free will as the Lich King, which just shows Danuser goofed.

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How could Ner'zhul control Arthas, even if partially, when the latter didn't have either Frostmourne, the Helm or the Plate?

Shhhhhhhhhhh we don't talk about the Plate! Most people on here don't even know about that

What we're talking about is when Arthas became a Death Knight. Frostmourne consumed his soul and Ner'zhul allowed him to have some agency until after Mal'ganis was defeated. After that, he had him live his men and he proceeded to strip him of his remaining humanity and created the evil persona of Arthas we all came to love(who is born of the Arthas that was driven to take up Frostmourne, but is not actually him). Like Many Scourge, this minion of the Lich King sought only to further his master's plans, like a good puppy, but when the control finally was taken from Ner'zhul of Arthas, this devoted love for his master was gone and he took full control.

Arthas before killing Mal'ganis=complete control
Arthas from the moment he kills Mal'ganis to the moment he puts on Helm of Domination=Under Ner'zhul's control
Arthas the moment he puts on the Helm=Merges his soul with Ner'zhul and becomes almost a new entity altogether, retaining the memories of both Ner'zhul and Arthas, but has complete control.

[Kithelle]

There's a few things wrong with what you're implying.
First, it's that we know Arthas was definitely not being fully controlled because of the Dev. Interview. While Arthas was under the effects of Domination and Death magic, he still had his own agency (albeit, in an altered mental state).
Second, we already know that Ner'zhul's plan to control Arthas did not work. Ner'zhul was going to take control of Arthas once he donned the Helm of Domination, and he told the Dreadlords what they needed to hear in order to fulfill his ambitions (i.e.: he lied to them). Ner'zhul may have planned to dominate Arthas' mind, and suppress it similarly to how the Jailer is doing to Anduin, but this never came to fruition.

No one from what I've seen has said Arthas was being mind controlled...starting to feel like people are building a strawman.

But it is painfully obvious he was being corrupted, especially after he obtained Frostmourne and DEFINITELY after he took up the Helm of Domination

[Magical Mudcrab]

No one from what I've seen has said Arthas was being mind controlled...starting to feel like people are building a strawman.

But it is painfully obvious he was being corrupted, especially after he obtained Frostmourne and DEFINITELY after he took up the Helm of Domination

No, he is very blatantly stating that arthas only had free will until he killed Mal'ganis, which is what he explicitly stated. That Arthas did not have agency after this point is simply wrong, and was stated by the devs in the most recent interview, although this has been something known since early on in Warcraft (i.e.: Arthas has always had agency, he simply was being nudged in specific directions).

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you really gonna argue against the Chronicle... /sigh
Page 51


Sorry but that's canon, the first part I quoted aswell
has nothing to do with the Lich King bullshitting Dreadlords, it's stated as fact by the narrator.
Your interview which contradicts this is stated about Arthas having free will as the Lich King, which just shows Danuser goofed.

Yes, people are arguing against it because it is not relevant. Ner'zhul lied to the Dreadlords multiple times and feigned loyalty to the Legion (or Jailer, given the changes) and has shown to be fallible in the past (i.e.: believing he would be able to dominate Arthas' mind and steal his body, and then had an uno reverse pulled and had his power stolen). Ner'zhul can claim to have all of the power and influence he wants, it doesn't make it an accurate statement even within the context of the old lore. Even if we were to say that it was accurate and that Ner'zhul was dominating Arthas in the original lore, which would be funny given Arthas was able to completely destroy Ner'zhul's mind at his center of power, the fact that Danuser has explicitly stated that this is no longer the case means that it is no longer the case. Disregarding lore changes simply because you do not like it is one thing, but it's disingenuous to pass off anything you don't like as the devs making a mistake. If we want to get into those kind of demented games, anyone can just point to Chronicle and say "That's a misprint, look at all the misprints in the Ultimate Visual Guide that needed fixed" or "Chronicle is just the Titan's perspective, so it's subjective and flawed, therefore holds no bearing over other sources," and both of those are as legitimate as your "haha Danuser made funny goof" argument.

[Kithelle]

No, he is very blatantly stating that arthas only had free will until he killed Mal'ganis, which is what he explicitly stated. That Arthas did not have agency after this point is simply wrong, and was stated by the devs in the most recent interview, although this has been something known since early on in Warcraft (i.e.: Arthas has always had agency, he simply was being nudged in specific directions).

And you're trying to make it sound like it was simple suggestion...it wasn't. It was corruption and manipulation and he was targeted...some people make it sound like someone came up to Arthas and say "Hey buddy? You want to be evil?" and Arthas shrugged and said sure. He was obviously being targeted and later manipulated....

Just look at Bolvar, he was a heroic man who survived the plague and dragon fire and even he was being twisted and corrupted by the Helm of Domination. Arthas was being target and corrupted by the power of Frostmourne and the Helm. Arthas wasn't the hero Bolvar was, but he wasn't pure evil, you could say what he did at Stratholme was actually morally grey. It wasn't really till he got to Northrend (which is where he was being driven to the presence and corruption of Frostmourne) where he started doing some truly dark and evil things.