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  1. #181
    Quote Originally Posted by munkeyinorbit View Post
    How is that different to bfa? It rewards 203? The real reward is the vault which is superior to heroic raiding. You still get the piece even if you didn't time it. You have to kill 3 bosses in mythic to get a better reward in raiding.
    I don't know, I didn't play in BFA. My previous m+ experience comes from Legion

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    Quote Originally Posted by Argorwal View Post
    The reason end of dungeon loot is lower is because it has no lockout.
    And I compared 220 to 220 which is a +10 to the last 2 of heroic.

    213 is for a +7 to bosses 1-8 of the raid.
    In Legion dungeon loot was on a lockaout too. Maybe that was healthier?
    As I said, I am against comparing vault loot, I'm more interested in the loot obtained directly from the content.
    There is too big difference between dungeon loot, and the vault rewards for that dungeon
    I have enough of EA ruining great franchises and studios, forcing DRM and Origin on their games, releasing incomplete games only to sell day-1 DLCs or spill dozens of DLCs, and then saying it, and microtransactions, is what players want, stopping players from giving EA games poor reviews, as well as deflecting complaints with cheap PR tricks.

    I'm not going to buy any game by EA as long as they continue those practices.

  2. #182
    I hate M+ as a healer. It is pure stress and not healthy for you I think.

  3. #183
    the dungeons just get more annoying each expansion

  4. #184
    I like M+, sometimes I like it a whole lot, timing a difficult key by the skin of your teeth can be exhilarating. I'm not a big fan of the design since BfA, where the devs tuned up the difficulty and either padded trash to no ends (BfA) or created stupidly hard bosses with mechanical requirements hardly shy of most Mythic bosses even at lower than 15 keys (SL). Legion's M+ was still the best, at least once it got over its growing pains, in part because pulling an extra pack didn't mean a death sentence and running without Lust didn't feel like suicide because the bosses are overwhelming.

    TBH I wouldn't be averse to M+ being a bit easier overall in exchange for its loot cap being lower than Mythic raids. I still prefer the SL design over the BFA one, but M+ needs more dungeons like Halls of Atonement and fewer like Sanguine Depths.
    It is all that is left unsaid upon which tragedies are built -Kreia

    The internet: where to every action is opposed an unequal overreaction.

  5. #185
    Quote Originally Posted by Overlordd View Post
    But that they enjoy the loot it gives.

    In BfA you could reach Mythic level of gear by just doing a weekly +15. People were so used to easy gearing like that, that they cry about it this expansion.
    People do not enjoy m+ for the content it brings, they solely enjoy to do it because of the loot it gives.

    Only a small minority seems to enjoy m+ so much, the rest only cares about the gear.
    So many people crying that the gear isn't a high enough ilvl and that it's not often dropped.

    I thought that people enjoyed this content regardless? I thought m+ was fun? What happened?
    I am enjoying M+ this expansion more than previous expansions now that it's more about completion than hoping to get a piece of loot at the end.

    Frankly, I could do away with loot altogether and just have cosmetic gear from here on and be perfectly happy.

  6. #186
    Quote Originally Posted by Alydael View Post
    What's to enjoy about M+?

    It's literally the exact same dungeon you already ran on normal....... and on heroic...... and on Mythic......?

    Who wouldn't enjoy running the exact same dungeon, 100 x, just a little harder with some affixes? We all know they get better each time you run them!

    That's before getting into the whole timer thing. Let's be honest- just slapping a timer on something is a real cheap and easy way to make something more difficult. You don't even have to do design work or do anything- just attach a timer. Simple, cheap and easy.

    Then we have the wonderfully inviting, nice and kind community that surrounds M+ A prime example of how a gaming community should be!

    I am stunned that people don't just love mythic plus!
    Maybe perfecting the pulls and your rotation? The affixes change the pathway you take and the way you approach the pulls. Once u get to the 12-15 range, its really not as toxic as u think. The timer makes u think abt when to use certain cds, and when to double pull.

    You don't have to like it. But don't act like there's no reason a ton of ppl enjoy it.

  7. #187
    I've always disliked m+,I just did it because the amount and quality of loot from it was downright absurd,eclipsing even mythic raiding by quite a margin. I just stopped doing it halfway through BfA but it just felt bad because I was actively gimping myself that way.
    I'm glad that I can just not do m+ without feeling like I'm missing out on something

  8. #188
    Quote Originally Posted by procne View Post
    I don't know, I didn't play in BFA. My previous m+ experience comes from Legion

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    In Legion dungeon loot was on a lockaout too. Maybe that was healthier?
    As I said, I am against comparing vault loot, I'm more interested in the loot obtained directly from the content.
    There is too big difference between dungeon loot, and the vault rewards for that dungeon
    In Legion end of dungeon loot was not on a lockout and it also capped out at 5 item levels under heroic raid, so actually lower than SL.

    Then, in Legion (and seasons 1-3 of BFA) the weekly chest capped at 5 item levels under mythic. It was only equal to mythic in BFA season 4.

    Except it could titanforge.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lolites View Post
    yeah, bcs before 8.3 the reward could titanforge to much higher level, since they removed tf in 8.3 they had to make weekly chest worth it

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    when did they stop giving medals at olympic games?
    not to mention fame and money (top athletes get comercial deals and shit like that)
    So we went from only a lucky chance to be mythic level to a guaranteed chance to be mythic level and from 1 option to 1-3 options per week.

    Sounds like an upgrade.

  9. #189
    Quote Originally Posted by procne View Post
    How is M+ overrewarding? 200 ilvl gear for +10 keys does not feel like overrewarding to me. While I can easily kill some heroic bosses with my guild, I can barely time a +10 key with them. I think many heroic bosses are easier than timed +10 key
    Should have clarified it's the weekly chest that is overrewarding. And especially now with valor points making a return only for M+? Just whack.

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    Quote Originally Posted by antelope591 View Post
    Heroic is in no way harder than KSM though. Its a trivial difficulty past the first few weeks of a tier. So M+ loot being equivalent to heroic makes perfect sense. Its just that Mythic is in an outlier right now by being far more difficult than any other content.
    I'd rather equate M10 to normal raids, difficulty wise. Only thing that makes mythic dungeons so hard is the community. Just doesn't make sense to me for mythic dungeons to be rewarding players higher-than-heroic raid gear through valor points and the weekly chest.

  10. #190
    Quote Originally Posted by Alydael View Post
    snip snip
    I am stunned that people don't just love mythic plus!
    Funny enough.... people do!

    It's almost as if different people enjoy different things!

    *gasp*

    Who knew!

  11. #191
    Quote Originally Posted by intenz View Post
    High keys depend on the competency of the dps more than the tank/healer... if dps is boring maybe try running something higher than a +6... I find tanking utterly mundane especially this expansion. Just follow a dratnos MDT path and run away from everything, such fun, not.
    I have done high keys in every expansion so I know what I'm talking about. The thing is as DPS the m+ is very predictable when you run with same people. You know the route you know when to use your DPS cooldowns in advance. You know exactly what comes in next pull and what to interrupt/CC. It doesn't matter if it's +6 or +24 you the mechanics won't change. As healer it's way more interesting since it varies way more, that was my point.

  12. #192
    Quote Originally Posted by Argorwal View Post
    In Legion end of dungeon loot was not on a lockout and it also capped out at 5 item levels under heroic raid, so actually lower than SL.

    Then, in Legion (and seasons 1-3 of BFA) the weekly chest capped at 5 item levels under mythic. It was only equal to mythic in BFA season 4.

    Except it could titanforge.

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    So we went from only a lucky chance to be mythic level to a guaranteed chance to be mythic level and from 1 option to 1-3 options per week.

    Sounds like an upgrade.
    actualy we went 1. from almost mythic with a chance to be mythic or better TO mythic but with 1-3 options from weely chest
    2. from heroic with a chance to be mythic or better TO BELOW heroic without any chance for improvement whatsoever from dungeon

    not to mention apart from gear getting worse the weekly chest is shared with other activities, so M+ kinda get shafted...
    i wouldnt call it upgrade, in begining of seasons when gear from end of run matters its worse and in the long run it gets kinda even, with slight advantage of new system in the complete end when you are only looking for 1-3 last items to finish gearing

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stardrift View Post
    I'd rather equate M10 to normal raids, difficulty wise.
    and i rather equate my bank account of that of Bezos, but reality is different... with competent group M10 is, at least this season, slightly below HC raid difficulty, its definitely more difficult than normal

  13. #193
    Quote Originally Posted by T-34 View Post
    Ehh, people have played games competitively since the dawn of mankind. Chess, Go, Mancala-games just to mention some very well known examples.

    Nobody stops you playing for "fun and immersion", but people who play to win and be competitive have fun doing that.
    Don't think that your way to play is the only way to have fun in a game, WoW included.
    I had a guy just today tell me that having to travel across the world to get to quest objectives was an "unneccesary waste of time meant only to milk MAUs". In an mmorpg. The world is a waste of time.
    The most difficult thing to do is accept that there is nothing wrong with things you don't like and accept that people can like things you don't.

  14. #194
    Quote Originally Posted by Argorwal View Post
    Cata heroics being queable is what made them have their high difficulty.

    Massive roll of the dice if your team is any decent.
    Cata heroics were even difficult for premade groups, because your gear (level) wasn't doing most of the things for you.
    MAGA - Make Alliance Great Again

  15. #195
    Quote Originally Posted by Lolites View Post
    when did they stop giving medals at olympic games?
    not to mention fame and money (top athletes get comercial deals and shit like that)
    Yeah? Show me the commercial the shot-put gold medalist was in. Or that with the pistol shooting guy. Or the kayak guy.
    Most of them get nothing out of it in terms or rewards. A handful of american sprinters/swimmers may get famous but thats it but there are so many people there and most do it for personal accomplishment (atleast that would be my guess).

  16. #196
    Quote Originally Posted by Yriel View Post
    Yeah? Show me the commercial the shot-put gold medalist was in. Or that with the pistol shooting guy. Or the kayak guy.
    Most of them get nothing out of it in terms or rewards. A handful of american sprinters/swimmers may get famous but thats it but there are so many people there and most do it for personal accomplishment (atleast that would be my guess).
    you think if olympics was just behind closed doors, nobody except the competitors would even know who and in what discipline won there would be so many people trying?
    sure they do it for personal accomplishment, but also prestige, medals, and money (athletes are paid even without commercials)...

    btw one of our athletes Michal Martikan, is canoist (or how its spelled, he rides canoe), few years back when he was on peak you couldnt enter shop that sells sports equipment or clothing without seeing his face on doors or the paper cutout figurine, he was in all sorts of tv show and other shit, so just bcs the commercial is not worldwide doesnt make it "nothing", it still earns crapload of money...

  17. #197
    Personally I've loved M+ ever since Legion. I never was a pusher, nor a complete casual. BfA dungeons sucked by themselves, so it was less fun. SL dungeons are great and way less gimmicky in terms of route planning. There is some variation in terms of skips, but not much, but you can plan the pack orders to get prideful when you need it.

    And this expansion I came across way less toxicity or leavers compared to BfA and Legion. Been pugging 70-80% of my dungeons on dk tank and lock and my timed completion rate is quite high (my first non-timed as a tank happened when I got to +13-14 keystone level, while I started from +2 and did 5-10 dungeons a week gradually increasing keystone levels by 2-3 every week).

    Don't understand why people are complaining about the timers, when they are not strict at all. Most of the time I pull 1 pack at a time, and we time it, even having around 10 deaths (in the +13-15 keysonte bracket). When the group is competent and appropriately geared, you don't have any timer problems, but when you have bad players in your group, its not Blizzard's fault.

  18. #198
    Quote Originally Posted by cparle87 View Post
    I had a guy just today tell me that having to travel across the world to get to quest objectives was an "unneccesary waste of time meant only to milk MAUs". In an mmorpg. The world is a waste of time.
    If you made a survey if people actually enjoy the flight from Oribos to (insert destination) I bet the vast majority would say it's a waste of time. The world isn't, the travel time kinda is, yes. The world has already established that instant teleportation is canon, we have dozen portals around the world, mages can teleport at will. It doesn't make a lot of sense either that the major hubs of the shadowlands (Bastion etc.) don't have portals for example. IF Azeroth was a real planet out there, the inhabitants that have teleport capabilities would abuse it way more than the game does. The game-world is actually less believable considering that.
    Last edited by Qnubi; 2021-02-25 at 09:34 AM.

  19. #199
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    Quote Originally Posted by Archipelagos View Post
    I have always disliked M+ gameplay wise, it's just not my thing (and I don't think it brings out the best in the community). But I'm glad it's there for people that dig it. My only wish is that all dungeon content in the game wasn't M+ or bust. I would love just one dungeon in an expansion's roster to not be designed around rushing, skips and speed.
    This.. I dislike M+ too. I understand why some think that a timer is required, to not wait for CDs for every pull, but this GOGO mentality is neither enjoyable nor healthy.

    Gating dungeons behind keys doesnt make it any better too. People become elitists in fear of losing their key. Both issues bring out the e
    Worst in People.

    Both Problems arent required imo.

    Why gate entrance? Right now you can spam M+ if you use other peoples keys. Why are keys required?

    Why have a timer? If people like to spend ages in a dungeon just let them. If people like to wait for CDs to push as high as possible let them have it.


    M+ isnt the only model that rewards players. Back in TBC or Wrath you spammed dungeons to get badges. Going fast was nice but not required and you always knew " if i do 5 more dungeons i can buy that new item".

    Once the majority got all badge loot, they released new dungeons with better gear and other badge gear.

  20. #200
    Majority of people do M+ for the gear rewards - that's nothing new.

    I like doing m+, it's pretty fun content for me and my group, albeit I'm almost never bothered to do higher than weekly 15, and more than 4 dungs for the vault.

    Why? Because I get nothing from doing more - end of the run loot is useless for me, even with possible valor upgrades soon, and vault is already max ilvl from 14 run.

    I'm not going to waste my time for bragging rights or a third party website score needed only for pugs.

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