Have We Become Overly Critical?

[aceperson]

But why? Why can't people play the game? Blizzard didn't hand you bis raid/dungeon peices in the past. (If i remember correctly there were times a vendor had a piece or two that were good). With the exception of benethic which only dedicated raiders took advantage of... no one afking in town 95% of the time and complaining about running a couple dungeons a week maxed out a full socket benethic peices for raid.

I just don't get the arguement... why cater to people who run 1 dungeon a week and 3 lfr bosses? I play for enjoyment of the content, me and the people i run with will 100% get the item they need... because we play the game. Then just upgrade it if needed, like a low ilvl trinket or something.

All this system needs is 226 upgrades at all 18s-20s and it will be perfect.

your confusing handouts with with guaranteeing a reward after so much work. it's no different than the minimum wage for a job. you put in effort and you get paid for the effort. currently, you could run 10 dungeons and not get a single piece of loot. if you can at least buy the BASE piece of gear (notice i emphasized base because i'm not saying let people buy 226 gear for cheap), then you have a minimum reward guarantee.

also, this system doesn't just cater to people who run 1 dungeon and 3 lfr bosses a week. if you run more dungeons and do more bosses, you get valor faster. this system caters to all. the upgrade system only caters to people who actually get loot and thus not only makes people who only run that 1 dungeon a week feel bad, but also those who run 10 and can't get an item they want. it's about not pissing people off which is what the current system does. the last part of your statement is just hyperbole. you literally can't guarantee that a person you run with will 100% get the item they want. people have been running old raids for years for a mount drop and have yet to get it. i'm that way with one dragon soul mount. i literally just need the one for the achieve and i've been working on it for years.

you need to look past how you play the game. i agree with you 100% that people shouldn't get handouts. it devalues gear and makes it less rewarding. but gear also shouldn't be so scarce that people quit in frustration. anthem (which recently had it's remake update scrapped) suffered and died because of their loot scarcity among other things. warframe is dying because they give out too much loot and it now means basically nothing. there needs to be a balance.

[NineSpine]

Because I corrected the spelling of 1 word lmao

Show us what I wrote and what I edited in if that's true.

No you didn't, you added multiple sentences. WE CAN SEE IT MAN.

Deluded? RPGs are by definition about improving your character. You do that with gear in pretty much every RPG, among other things.

So yes, it is about that.

We aren't talking about what makes a game an RPG. We are talking about what makes it an MMO.

And? Who cares?

The first MMO came out 20 years ago. Why is this relevant?

There's a reason WoW has had more players than FF, ESO and GW combined.

Because if you are going to define "MMO" in a way where everquest and ultima online don't count, you aren't living in reality.

What makes something a good game in the eyes of someone else is not up to you to decide.

This isn't about good or bad games. You keep shifting the arguments all over just to avoid admitting your original bad take. This isn't about good or bad. This isn't about RPG. This is about what makes an MMO, and you want us to believe that what makes an MMO is being like WoW, a game that came out more than ten years after the first MMOs.

[Kelduril]

and you want us to believe that what makes an MMO is being like WoW, a game that came out more than ten years after the first MMOs.

And yet it is the MMO any one random person is likeliest to have heard about. Being first doesn't mean you have the recipe for success.

No you didn't, you added multiple sentences. WE CAN SEE IT MAN.

I'm tired of this shit. Take screenshots of where I changed my point or shut up already.

This isn't about good or bad games

Says who?

Lol. What size are FF's ''dungeons'' again? 8 people?

Lmao

I was clearly mocking FF as a shitty MMO for having 8 man BIS raids.

[NineSpine]

No you can't. M+ won't give you 233 gear.

Right, it will only give you the best gear for almost every slot but not a couple. Wow, what a great point. So max level gear can be gained from 2v2 content, therefore wow is not an MMO by your definition right?


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And yet it is the MMO any one random person is likeliest to have heard about. Being first doesn't mean you have the recipe for success.



I'm tired of this shit. Take screenshots of where I changed my point.

Do you seriously not understand the difference between "This is what an MMO is" and "This is what I think a good MMO is"? I don't like Toyotas. That doesn't mean I get to declare that they aren't cars.

We all know you edited the post. You know it. We know it. These denials just make you look like a weirdo. You aren't fooling a single person except maybe yourself.

[Kelduril]

Right, it will only give you the best gear for almost every slot but not a couple. Wow, what a great point.

I agree, thanks for seeing reason.

So max level gear can be gained from 2v2 content, therefore wow is not an MMO by your definition right?

See, I do think it's pure trash that you need to PvP to gear up for Mythic Raids, but I'm willing to give it a pass because people who are at 2.4K rating are usuallly decent players. Blizzard should definitely put Resilience back in the game to separate PvE and PvP once and for all, and I have no idea why they don't.

Do you seriously not understand the difference between "This is what an MMO is" and "This is what I think a good MMO is"

I think it was pretty obvious that I was calling it a bad MMO. I never said it's not an MMO at all.

We all know you edited the post. You know it. We know it. These denials just make you look like a weirdo. You aren't fooling a single person except maybe yourself.

Okay, so you're still on that.

1. I don't even know what post it was by now, I edit posts all the time for spelling or to better express my point, that's why I told you to go look and come back with proof.

2. I don't know why you keep behaving like editing posts is a crime. What's up with that?

3. You still haven't shown us what post made you so upset.

[Elkfingers]

I've been stating it pretty clearly. FF14 and SWTOR may have stories its players enjoy ( supposedly, to me FF14 looks like anime trash ) but everything else is terrible.

Which relates to your point about instance size...how?

You haven't been clear at all. You've made completely contradictory statements, edited your posts to read differently and claimed to have not done that at all, and said you never said certain things in the first place, only to restate them in your next post. It's about as clear as a window made out of human shit.

We know that you don't like SWTOR and FF14, but the point is that the reasoning you gave FF14 being bad specifically was that the largest instances are for 8 players and MMO has the word Massively in it. We know what you think, but your justification for it is garbo.

See, I do think it's pure trash that you need to PvP to gear up for Mythic Raids, but I'm willing to give it a pass because people who are at 2.4K rating are usuallly decent players. Blizzard should definitely put Resilience back in the game to separate PvE and PvP once and for all, and I have no idea why they don't.

LOL WAIT WHAT. So small instance sizes rewarding good gear is only a problem when it supports your argument. When you realise that there's an example in WoW of exactly that, instead of admitting that it's a problem for your argument, you looked for a bullshit reason for that particular case being an exception.

This is very dishonest reasoning. Very disappointed.

[NineSpine]

I agree, thanks for seeing reason.



See, I do think it's pure trash that you need to PvP to gear up for Mythic Raids, but I'm willing to give it a pass because people who are at 2.4K rating are usuallly decent players.



I think it was pretty obvious that I was calling it a bad MMO. I never said it's not an MMO at all.



Okay, so you're still on that.

1. I don't even know what post it was by now, I edit posts all the time for spelling or to better express my point, that's why I told you to go look and come back with
proof.

2. I don't know why you keep behaving like editing posts is a crime. What's up with that?

3. You still haven't shown us what post made you so upset.

I already showed you the post. I'm done with your weird games, because your points are incoherent. You just change your argument every post and try to move the goalpost to a totally different argument.

[Kelduril]

I already showed you the post. I'm done with your weird games, because your points are incoherent. You just change your argument every post and try to move the goalpost to a totally different argument.

So you rant for 5 posts about some posts I supposedly edited and when I ask you what it was you quit. Cool.

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We know that you don't like SWTOR and FF14, but the point is that the reasoning you gave FF14 being bad specifically was that the largest instances are for 8 players and MMO has the word Massively in it.

Yeah, and? Maybe for me 8 man raids are a joke, and an MMO where the best content is for 8 people seems desperate. Like it doesn't have enough players.

What's your problem? I'm allowed to have whatever standards I want. Why are you so upset? Did I hit too close to home? Did your WoW guild disband because you couldn't maintain 20

LOL WAIT WHAT. So small instance sizes rewarding good gear is only a problem when it supports your argument

Nah, it's always a problem. PVP shouldn't be a better gearing tool for PVE than.... actual PvE content. And it is.

This is very dishonest reasoning

No it's not. You think it is, therefore in your little world it is. But plenty people think the same as I do.

[Elkfingers]

So you rant for 5 posts about some posts I supposedly edited and when I ask you what it was you quit. Cool.

You think we're archiving the shit you wrote before you get a chance to edit it? We know it's edited because we both saw the original post, which was very different to the edited version. We don't have the fkn transcripts lol.

You know you edited it. Everyone else can clearly see you edited it.

What's your problem? I'm allowed to have whatever standards I want. Why are you so upset? Did I hit too close to home? Did your WoW guild disband because you couldn't maintain 20

Nah man, we just cleared Mythic 60 man Jailer and everybody in my guild has giant dongers (we ask for proof in the application). Not upset whatsoever.

No it's not. You think it is, therefore in your little world it is. But plenty people think the same as I do.

Ah yes. "It's not". Truly the pinnacle of reasoned argumentation, there. I think I'm probably done now too. You're going to quote this and say some shit like "You just couldn't handle my ascendant debatelord abilities so you're giving up", but just for the record I'm leaving this conversation here because you're either not arguing in good faith or you're extremely dense. I can't work with either.

[NineSpine]

No it's not. You think it is, therefore in your little world it is. But plenty people think the same as I do.

And that is a sad commentary on the state of reason in the world.

[Kelduril]

You think we're archiving the shit you wrote before you get a chance to edit it?

You literally said you can see it. I was hoping that you'd take a screenshot, since, again, I edit like half the posts I make for various reasons, and you're demanding I remember which one specifically I edited, and how I supposedly changed its message.

You know you edited it.

Still drawing a blank on why you seem to think that's illegal.

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And that is a sad commentary on the state of reason in the world.

It's not a sad anything, it's just you being upset that FF14 is seen as a shitty game by pretty much everyone who doesn't play FF14.

Sorry but when the hardest content is for 8 players that just makes the game look like a joke. I see more people on World Quests in Bastion.

FF14 pretty much looks like the little brother with a chip on his shoulder. Didn't they brag about 20 million accounts in total a while ago? Like, lol, WoW had that in 2007?

Seeing people wank its story ( which looks like generic anime shit based on the cinematics on youtube ) when the game looks like a 2010 Korean MMO is just sad. WoW would get mocked into tomorrow if they used pop music with English lyrics in their CGI cinematics.

[NineSpine]

You literally said you can see it. I was hoping that you'd take a screenshot, since, again, I edit like half the posts I make for various reasons, and you're demanding I remember which one specifically I edited, and how I supposedly changed its message.



Still drawing a blank on why you seem to think that's illegal.

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It's not a sad anything, it's just you being upset that FF14 is seen as a shitty game by pretty much everyone who doesn't play FF14.

Sorry but when the hardest content is for 8 players that just makes the game look like a joke. I see more people on World Quests in Bastion.

The hardest content in wow is mega-high 5 man keys. That's way harder than mythic raiding. It just doesn't reward better gear.

Nobody cares about your elitist snobbery about hard content and instance sizes. It doesn't matter to anyone but you.

[Kelduril]

The hardest content in wow is mega-high 5 man keys

No, the hardest content is the official PVP tournaments. But Mythic raids will do just fine when compared to FF14.

Nobody cares about your elitist snobbery about hard content and instance sizes. It doesn't matter to anyone but you.

Let me throw one of the earliest replies back at you.

" Please read a book ". That ''nobody'' is a big word to use, and I assure you I'm not the only person who thinks this.

[A Chozo]

No, not overly critical. People just don't know how to convey their criticism, which leads to the devs ignoring whatever passes as "crying" instead of actual feedback.

[Lolites]

I think we are at about 78% critical strike chance

but we should increase hit, bcs most criticism (at leat on this forum) is miss

[Elkfingers]

" Please read a book "

Just dropping back in to clear this up. It was me who asked you to read a book, and I stand by it. You kept throwing around accusations of strawman fallacies where they didn't apply. For a start, specifically attacking the syllogisms somebody uses to reach a conclusion doesn't invalidate the conclusion itself so much as the reasoning used to reach said conclusion, and you used the excuse of supposed fallacious reasoning in place of a response to the posts you were responding to.

Fallacies are useful tools for deconstructing arguments and finding weaknesses. You don't have to name them like they're Pokémon attacks. You're supposed to use your understanding of argument structure to inform your angle of approach. If I know an argument is a strawman, I can then explain how the logic doesn't follow. Going "OH SHIT IT'S A STRAWMAN" doesn't do that, and it's not convincing. Especially when you have incorrectly identified it as such.

It just demonstrates a poor understanding of the underlying philosophy, and I genuinely think that if you want to make points convincingly that you should read some material that would help you to do that.

[Kelduril]

You kept throwing around accusations of strawman fallacies where it didn't apply.

It did, though. My post clearly read as " 8 man raids make FF14 a bad MMO " whereas your takeaway seemed to be that I was saying it's not an MMO at all. Which was not what I was saying.

Yet you attacked that, hence strawman.

[Lolites]

No, not overly critical. People just don't know how to convey their criticism, which leads to the devs ignoring whatever passes as "crying" instead of actual feedback.

i mean people were calling 8.3 "empty", "emptiest patch ever", "worst patch ever" i would that is overly critical, and tbh outright stupid and factualy incorrect

[NineSpine]

It did, though. My post clearly read as " 8 man raids make FF14 a bad MMO " whereas your takeaway seemed to be that I was saying it's not an MMO at all. Which was not what I was saying.

Yet you attacked that, hence strawman.

That's not what you said.

[LedZeppelin]

Yes. Like 4 expansions ago. People pay 15 dollars and think they should sit on the board of directors