Rest in peace rogues

[Celfydd]

Remember, this is not a dps list and it's Mythic raid. So lots of caveats apply. But we can detect some trends which are pretty much visible in any content type and for the usual reasons, which is why i am personlly dubious about the direction Blizzard wants to take our class.

Yes. It seems fairly clear that sub and assassination scaling falls off a cliff between heroic and mythic Nathria content (and presumably any future SL raid content). Outlaw slightly less so.

[Coldkil]

Yes. It seems fairly clear that sub and assassination scaling falls off a cliff between heroic and mythic Nathria content (and presumably any future SL raid content). Outlaw slightly less so.

Outlaw has insane sustained cleave and a number of fights promote that (Kael'Thas, Council, Huntsman, Generals) and we're fine in single target (most of the rest of the fights). If we didn't have Blade Flurry, we would be bottom of the barrel.

[tavalus]

Outlaw has insane sustained cleave and a number of fights promote that (Kael'Thas, Council, Huntsman, Generals) and we're fine in single target (most of the rest of the fights). If we didn't have Blade Flurry, we would be bottom of the barrel.

I don't think I'd say we're "fine". Overall the class is in the dumpster for a multitude of reasons. Ranging from 3x dps specs with only 1 of them being an approximation of "viable" (personally I don't feel it is, and it is in my opinion our worst to play spec), our complete and utter lack of raid utility, the fact that the hybrid tax is a thing of the past while rogues have one of - if not the single most - antiquated design, our covenant abilities being garbage comparatively (especially in pvp) and the fact that most of our kit has been piece-mealed out to other classes in improved versions (it's not a great idea to compare a single class to another, but if you look at our class verse all the classes you find that in some fashion any class that got a piece of our kit got a better version of it). You take all of that and then add in historically and currently we see the least amount of design attention and "fine" isn't even on the radar.

[RobertoCarlos]

The rogue covenant spells really do feel garbage which doesnt help as the specs already feel bare bone as is.

This is another expansion where I dunno why you would bring more melee than you need over ranged. Boomkin, locks, hunters all bring more damage and are much safer to have in the raid.

Rogues saving grace for the longest time was our damage reduction ability with strong single target dps but both of those have been nerfed enough so other classes took over because of what they offer instead.

Also outlaw sucks I hate hating to play that spec

[Coldkil]

I don't think I'd say we're "fine". Overall the class is in the dumpster for a multitude of reasons. Ranging from 3x dps specs with only 1 of them being an approximation of "viable" (personally I don't feel it is, and it is in my opinion our worst to play spec), our complete and utter lack of raid utility, the fact that the hybrid tax is a thing of the past while rogues have one of - if not the single most - antiquated design, our covenant abilities being garbage comparatively (especially in pvp) and the fact that most of our kit has been piece-mealed out to other classes in improved versions (it's not a great idea to compare a single class to another, but if you look at our class verse all the classes you find that in some fashion any class that got a piece of our kit got a better version of it). You take all of that and then add in historically and currently we see the least amount of design attention and "fine" isn't even on the radar.

That's exactly the point. It's not that we don't work - it's that others have "more working" versions of out toolkit. Hence Blizzard doesn't touch us. More details in the PM i sent you.

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The rogue covenant spells really do feel garbage which doesnt help as the specs already feel bare bone as is.

Agree. I watched some videos about the analysis of who plays which covenants, and the conclusion was that Night Fae is not only the strongest number wise, but also most elaborated and polished and with added shenanigans, as if Blizzard put a lot more work on it (or just had better ideas for) compared to other covenants. Druid and Hunters, the two most played classes, are basically all Night Fae.

Rogues definitely need completely redone covenants skills. They're balanced by the fact they're all underpowered so it literally makes no difference. I would keep only Sepsis because a) has some mechanics and synergies that can be useful (extra stealth, execute, nature damage scales with Assa toolkit) and b) if underpowered, you can just bump up numbers. The rest to me is garbage that needs to be completely overhauled.

EDIT: historically (thanks to statistics) ranged has always been more represented in raid while melee were more present in M+. And we're talking about 53% vs 47% in both cases. It's shadowlands that broke the trend where in any pve content ranged wins over melee, being around 60% vs 40% more or less (not counting trends like rerollers, alts, etc).

[Mazza]

So was it really Cloak of shadows and Feint that were keeping us relevant in a raid setting? because that is basically what changed. Feint was nerfed (and other classes have their own personal cd's) and the raid utility cloak provides... some classes now have "better" versions of it.

[Coldkil]

Smoke Bomb was awesome to have and i don't get why it got canned as a raid utility. Our survivability is still really good, but i just don't get why we cannot provide a magic/phisical dmg debuff depending on spec (Sub/Assa for the first, Outlaw for the second).

[Mazza]

Well, technically we still bring an enrage dispell or a 70% snare (shiv + mindnumbing/cripling) but for the first one I don't think there actually IS a dispellable enrage in Castle Nathria and the second one generally is not needed on bosses.

I also am assuming that bosses are immune to mindnumbing's casting/swing speed slowing effect.

Maybe it's not that we have no utility, it's just that it is not useful/usable in raids...

[Naiattavain]

yea make rogue useful in raids.

[kaelix1]

My main problem with the logs is each week rogues are going down, been below the middle of dps as a pure MELEE dps that bring nothing to the party is not a place you want to be, I'm curious, is there a reason to bring a rogue next raid progress in the current situation we are right now? the way I see it if WW/DK continues to be the way they are now there is zero reasons to bring a rogue, this is the first time i question if choosing rogue was the right call and I can't believe I'm in this situation t

[Asrialol]

You kids born after 2000 make me laugh.
OH NO ROGUE ISN'T TOPPING CHARTS!!! REEEE BLIZZAAAAAAAAAAAARD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Rogue has been in a good spot since 2004 in some form. Just because it's not in the spot YOU want it to be as you cry, doesn't mean the class is dead or anything. Rogue is still brought to M+ and PVP. 2/3 is better than most classes in this game. Sit back, wipe your tears, do your homework. It'll be ok.....it's the first tier, relax baby boy.

Do you feel intellectually superior to people who are younger than you? Specifically those born after the 2000s? Why do you feel that calling someone a "kid" is demeaning? Does it make you feel good to call someone a kid?

Probably one of the weirdest posts I've seen on this forum. You come across as such a immature person, yet you use "kid" as something demeaning. Kids are usually, guess what, immature - because they're kids. And you're acting immature.. So. Very strange indeed.

[Aurosh]

According to raiderio, the 33 higgest m+ clears all had a mage and a rogue in their group. The reason rogues werent part of the MDI is, that MDI is about fast clears of easy dungeons and monks offer good utility for speedruns.

But rogues arent bad. Unholy is your biggest issue though. Unholy immunities were so strong this tier and unholy is just superior including execute. Overall rogues should outscale monks anyways. Unholy will stay very strong without nerfs.

[froschhure]

state of rogue is sadge

[Arstik]

And here I am, a fucking a 2k mw monk with good gear getting deleted by a sub rogue before the stuns run off.

You are getting deleted by the rogues fire mage partner,not by the rogue.. rogues have good utility/control in pvp but their dmg is nothing if you survive their opener and with 220+ ilvl that is not problem at all. only good comps for rogue is fire/rogue and rmp, if they nerf mages rogues will come shit tier. Meanwhile warriors and monks can slap any healer combo in there and shine.

Id rather have more dmg outside dance windows than inside them, backstab is laughable ability right now.

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[Kaver]

So was it really Cloak of shadows and Feint that were keeping us relevant in a raid setting? because that is basically what changed. Feint was nerfed (and other classes have their own personal cd's) and the raid utility cloak provides... some classes now have "better" versions of it.

Another problem is that AMZ incentivizes class stacking of DKs. Class stacking is always a bad thing. Sometimes there are specific mechanics which incentivizes class stacking but then it usually just one specific fight. Right now you want to class stacks DKs in general which is absolutely horrible. They really need to put a shared CD on AMZ just like they do with Hero. Otherwise DKs will take all the melee spots for the rest of the expansion.

[Arstik]

Rogues are in for a nerf. There is a new build out for Sub Rogues in PVP that can global a 50k hp Bear Druid with 25% versatility and barkskin + ironfur up. A full Gladiator geared rogue in this vid is killed in less than a second. Yes if you manage to get a fear off before the rogue can do the shadowblade combo (However if they have cloak up, there is no hope) and before you think you can heal your partner through it, the rogue PVP ability that pulls you out of sight of everyone else is part of this combo. There is almost literally nothing you can do unless you are a paladin with a bubble. 20k+ Eviscerate crits should not be possible in PVP with people in 30% vers gear. The only solice is that these rogues can only do it every 2 mins.

I fully expect Rogues to be hit with another round of nerfs in PVP in the coming days since there has been videos made about this build. Hell my rogue is only 20% vers and Im able to global people down in arenas using the macros and rotation in this video.

I wanted to main my Demon Hunter this expansion, however after finding out all my gear really comes from PVP I think im gonna swap to rogue or boomkin until this shit is fixed.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vy0KDFSGguI - Video explaining how its done

Thats a bait, tanks take 50% more dmg, that meme spec wont work against anything above 1400, yes it can suprise people few times but if your one trick pony didnt work you can just leave arena since you got only one dance and you just used all ur cd's and then yours backstabbing for 500dmg

[Raugnaut]

The first rogue spec to show up is Outlaw at 10th. Sub is 17th and Assassin is 19th. Right now rogues are trash in pve.

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Right now there are no S-tier rogue pve specs.

Because PvE is 100% Mythic raiding amirite?

/facepalm. Combat has been, and likely always will be one of the best specs for M+

[Naiattavain]

there are alot of bugs in rogue subtlety talents spec.

[Sazalol]

Rogues are fine right now

[Garymorilix]

Outlaw is not S tier lol. Where the hell have you been?

I don't know what you were smoking during that reply but I would suggest you to take a look at actual runs done 20+ and notice which melee specs are actually played.

Outlaw is S tier, case and point.