This expansion showcased how people do not enjoy m+ at all

[sam86]

of course we hate M+ idea, it is usually done with pugs, and pugs are usually horrible in harder content
raids are still usually not pugable, at least not that easy to pug as M+, make average raid is done by pugs and ppl will hate raids with same passion
M+ is introduced since legion yet blizz still refuse to punish leavers, blizz answer is 'play with friends', i have friends, but this exp for example none of us wants to play tank or healer, nah someone has to s8ck it because we can't pugs or we are f8cked
last time we did M+ dungeon we did it 4 ppl of us and took ages just because we don't want to pug anymore

- - - Updated - - -

This.. I dislike M+ too. I understand why some think that a timer is required, to not wait for CDs for every pull, but this GOGO mentality is neither enjoyable nor healthy.

Gating dungeons behind keys doesnt make it any better too. People become elitists in fear of losing their key. Both issues bring out the e
Worst in People.

Both Problems arent required imo.

Why gate entrance? Right now you can spam M+ if you use other peoples keys. Why are keys required?

Why have a timer? If people like to spend ages in a dungeon just let them. If people like to wait for CDs to push as high as possible let them have it.


M+ isnt the only model that rewards players. Back in TBC or Wrath you spammed dungeons to get badges. Going fast was nice but not required and you always knew " if i do 5 more dungeons i can buy that new item".

Once the majority got all badge loot, they released new dungeons with better gear and other badge gear.

I agree with you 100% + i want to add punishment for leaving mechanism

[ellieg]

I agree with you 100% + i want to add punishment for leaving mechanism

They should add that for raids too. And world quests.

[cparle87]

If you made a survey if people actually enjoy the flight from Oribos to (insert destination) I bet the vast majority would say it's a waste of time. The world isn't, the travel time kinda is, yes. The world has already established that instant teleportation is canon, we have dozen portals around the world, mages can teleport at will. It doesn't make a lot of sense either that the major hubs of the shadowlands (Bastion etc.) don't have portals for example. IF Azeroth was a real planet out there, the inhabitants that have teleport capabilities would abuse it way more than the game does. The game-world is actually less believable considering that.

I'm not talking about the Oribos flight. I'm talking about having to go from point A to point B in the world. Find the ramp, wait 30 seconds for the elevator, ride the chariot, hop on the gem bat.

As for your talk about teleportation, it's not as free as you think it is. It's partially a joke, but this is the closest thing we've gotten to portal rules, where they spell out why portal and teleportation magics only go to certain places.

https://www.wowhead.com/object=19288...usage#comments

[Qnubi]

I'm not talking about the Oribos flight. I'm talking about having to go from point A to point B in the world. Find the ramp, wait 30 seconds for the elevator, ride the chariot, hop on the gem bat.

As for your talk about teleportation, it's not as free as you think it is. It's partially a joke, but this is the closest thing we've gotten to portal rules, where they spell out why portal and teleportation magics only go to certain places.

https://www.wowhead.com/object=19288...usage#comments

I read that, and the first issue I found is this:

"HOWEVER, in practice portals have a history of being a burden on any society in which it is offered to the general public."

Realize, that we (the players) are not the general public, we are champions and in lore there are not millions of champions, only a few dozen (a raid). So this point is mute already and makes everything after pointless. Because, again, we are so few people using those portals. And further it states:

"...portal technology is the closest to becoming banished from anything but emergency usage."

Saving the world would count as an emergency use, right? If we gain more power more quickly by teleporting and thus saving Azeroth then, again, there is no counter-argument. Is the cost of potentially losing a ley-line worth more than losing azeroth as a whole? Hell, no.

All the stories we have participated in were as heroes of the horde/alliance and all events were world ending ones, as such the portal usage is not only crucial, it was mandatory and no leader of Azeroth would deny us champions the use of those portals, and they would also comply to making new ones on our demand BECAUSE we saved Azeroth so many times already.

[T-34]

This.. I dislike M+ too. I understand why some think that a timer is required, to not wait for CDs for every pull, but this GOGO mentality is neither enjoyable nor healthy.

Gating dungeons behind keys doesnt make it any better too. People become elitists in fear of losing their key. Both issues bring out the e
Worst in People.

Both Problems arent required imo.

Why gate entrance? Right now you can spam M+ if you use other peoples keys. Why are keys required?

Why have a timer? If people like to spend ages in a dungeon just let them. If people like to wait for CDs to push as high as possible let them have it.


M+ isnt the only model that rewards players. Back in TBC or Wrath you spammed dungeons to get badges. Going fast was nice but not required and you always knew " if i do 5 more dungeons i can buy that new item".

Once the majority got all badge loot, they released new dungeons with better gear and other badge gear.

The content you ask for exists today and it is called Mythic0 dungeons. Here you can re-enacted the glory days of TBC and CC all mobs in a pack except one and kill the mobs one by one.

Mythic+ was made specifically for people that are competitive and it is a roaring success.
If you don't enjoy M+, either because you are unable to handle the competitive nature or just don't like them, then there is plenty of other stuff for you to do in WoW.
That you don't like what you call "go-go" is 100% a YOU-problem and it can be solved by YOU by making your own group where YOU invite people with the same mindset as YOU.

The rest of us enjoy the pressure and rush of doing stuff on a timer.
M+ brings out the best in people: skill, dedication, co-operation and respect for other peoples time and effort.
I am perfectly aware that there is a small, but vocal, minority that simply can't accept that players that care about their performance and make an effort don't want to play with players that don't care about their performance and don't make an effort.

[Yriel]

you think if olympics was just behind closed doors, nobody except the competitors would even know who and in what discipline won there would be so many people trying?
sure they do it for personal accomplishment, but also prestige, medals, and money (athletes are paid even without commercials)...

btw one of our athletes Michal Martikan, is canoist (or how its spelled, he rides canoe), few years back when he was on peak you couldnt enter shop that sells sports equipment or clothing without seeing his face on doors or the paper cutout figurine, he was in all sorts of tv show and other shit, so just bcs the commercial is not worldwide doesnt make it "nothing", it still earns crapload of money...

The original statement was "Name One single challenging thing that doesn't provide some sort of measurable reward that many ppl do." and i just stated that there are a lot of athletes that don't get that in more obscure sports, be it at the olympics or world cups/tournaments that don't really get anything for except a feeling of accomplishment.

[Lolites]

The original statement was "Name One single challenging thing that doesn't provide some sort of measurable reward that many ppl do." and i just stated that there are a lot of athletes that don't get that in more obscure sports, be it at the olympics or world cups/tournaments that don't really get anything for except a feeling of accomplishment.

and i wrote reasons why you are wrong... even given example of obscure sport with rewards being there, just less than for example football...
or you consider canoeing obscure enough? you think it have world-wide participation and viewing numbers in bilions? its almost what you put as example (well you said kayaking) of sport that doesnt provide any reward...

truth is ANY activity that is done by larger number of people DOES provide some sort of reward other than sense of accomplishment (if you are good at it ofc), doesnt even have to be challenging

[Paulosio]

I love M+! However, being stuck at +14 keys now, I do not like how people decide to quit, leave, or not read-up/learn the mechanics. I have no problem pushing a key and depleting it, but I hate when people just leave with 2 mins left to finish. The community has made it so bad this time around. I actually don't mind running them over an over again as it feels good with different challenges each time based on your comp. Its the people.

I've refused to pug mythic+ again since about 2 months ago. My pug group got to the last boss in Spires with about 8 mins left and wiped because the spear missed the boss. We tried again and the same thing happened. 2 of the players in the group started being really abusive to the tank who was the player that missed the spear so we said ok 1 of you guys do the spear if you are going to be like this about it.... On attempt 3 we got to the spear phase and nobody took responsibility for using the spear and so we wiped again. At this point the 2 abusive players started getting more abusive and left making it impossible to complete the dungeon. They only cared about their raider io score and I mostly cared about just completing the dungeon for the vault. Including the time to put the group together that was about an hour of wasted time.

I'd already had problems earlier that reset forming groups for higher keys.... Spending 30-40 mins to form a group only to have the tank try and face tank massive packs of trash with necrotic and then leave when he died and then having to spend the same ammount of time to form a new group only to have the same thing happen and then have that Spires experience all on the same day was just too much. All in all that added up to nearly 3 hours of dungeoning for nothing.... Not a single completed dungeon.

I only go with my guild now and as long as I get at least one 14 dungeon done for my vault im happy... If for any reason I can't find a group in guild then I just don't go.

[procne]

"Name One single challenging thing that doesn't provide some sort of measurable reward that many ppl do."

World first boss kill
Reaching top of the m+ ranking
reaching max level wihout deaths
playing games on higher difficulty

[Tiradon]

Majority of people do M+ for the gear rewards - that's nothing new.

I like doing m+, it's pretty fun content for me and my group, albeit I'm almost never bothered to do higher than weekly 15, and more than 4 dungs for the vault.

Why? Because I get nothing from doing more - end of the run loot is useless for me, even with possible valor upgrades soon, and vault is already max ilvl from 14 run.

I'm not going to waste my time for bragging rights or a third party website score needed only for pugs.

I agree with your point, my group just recently started clearing 16+ just for the sake of it and we are timing them without a problem, but next week we just gonna focus on clearing 14s faster to do the 10/10 and be done it.

Even with rewards on higher keys I don't think I'll be frustrating myself over for some random cosmetics unless it's something like the ones in MOP Challenge mode where we have full sets and etc.

Honestly I'd rather have Blizzard focus the core problems than being focused on adding more content and rewards for those pushing above +15

[Yriel]

and i wrote reasons why you are wrong... even given example of obscure sport with rewards being there, just less than for example football...
or you consider canoeing obscure enough? you think it have world-wide participation and viewing numbers in bilions? its almost what you put as example (well you said kayaking) of sport that doesnt provide any reward...

truth is ANY activity that is done by larger number of people DOES provide some sort of reward other than sense of accomplishment (if you are good at it ofc), doesnt even have to be challenging

And on the other hand you have discus throwers or field hockey players that are virtually unknown. That get gold medals or win world cups and are not even on tv. Just because some athletes become famous doesn't mean that everyone does. I'd say the vast majority of amateur athletes don't get anything out of it.

- - - Updated - - -

World first boss kill
Reaching top of the m+ ranking
reaching max level wihout deaths
playing games on higher difficulty

Yes, exactly. Or the guy that leveled to max without fighting a single mob. People do all kind of challenging stuff in game without any rewards.

[Ktperry]

M+ It's the only reason I ressubed.

[Lolites]

World first boss kill
Reaching top of the m+ ranking
reaching max level wihout deaths

moneymaking via twitch says hi

playing games on higher difficulty

weird argument to say in a topic about WoW... as that is pretty much the base of wow that higher difficulty content gives better rewards...
which is pretty much true about all games, higher difficulty usualy gives better rewards, be it xp, items, or simply achievments...

- - - Updated - - -

Yes, exactly. Or the guy that leveled to max without fighting a single mob. People do all kind of challenging stuff in game without any rewards.

the fact you know about him shows fame (or prestige if youd prefer) might be his motivation...

- - - Updated - - -

And on the other hand you have discus throwers or field hockey players that are virtually unknown. That get gold medals or win world cups and are not even on tv. Just because some athletes become famous doesn't mean that everyone does. I'd say the vast majority of amateur athletes don't get anything out of it.

THEY
GET
MONEY

every goddamn sport competition, be it olympics or low village league with 10 people competeing does have some reward for wining... have you NEVER compete in anything if you dont realise that?!
this is pointless you just repeat the same shit like broken record despite being explained you are wrong even with goddamn examples, its like arguing with mentaly slow child... im done

[Blackmist]

I don't enjoy M+. I think the gogogo attitude that has permeated this game since Wrath is a cancer.

Sure, have leaderboards for things. Fastest dungeon completions, fastest boss kills in raids, make it public and official, rather than something only on Warcraftlogs. Have silly little rules that you have to stick to if you want a valid time (like not replacing anybody, or respeccing, or changing gear or whatever).

But the speed should never have been the focus for it, just the completion. Keys downgrading when the timer expires is dumb. The only fail state should be not completing the dungeon. The main reward for completing the dungeon fast should be that you got your chance at loot faster and can do another.

[procne]

moneymaking via twitch says hi

No, bragging rights. I don't mean only boss first kills in wow, by sponsored teams. Any other game where you do something as the first, simply for fame and satisfaction

weird argument to say in a topic about WoW... as that is pretty much the base of wow that higher difficulty content gives better rewards...
which is pretty much true about all games, higher difficulty usualy gives better rewards, be it xp, items, or simply achievments...

There are plenty of single player games, that people play on higher difficulty for no other reward than fun

every goddamn sport competition, be it olympics or low village league with 10 people competeing does have some reward for wining... have you NEVER compete in anything if you dont realise that?!

Professional sport yes. But there is whole world outside of that. Being the king of the football in your neighbourhood, or the fastest among your friends

this is pointless you just repeat the same shit like broken record despite being explained you are wrong even with goddamn examples

Pot and kettle. Maybe your world revolves around rewards and money. But it isn't the case for everyone else.

[Coldkil]

I love M+ ... if only there was a way to more than the 1 or 2 a week, I'd be in.

Raiding on the other had is monotonous and unrewarding.

This nails everything imho, both the good and the bad.

M+: it's fast paced, spammable, doesn't require any kind of schedule or commitment through pugging, and gives a sense of steady progression since you loot "more" things and you have r.io as a surrogate "i'm better than you/i'm getting better" which is a great driver for a lot of players. However this is exactly why it's bad - until you have an organized group which nets you stability and success in the runs, pugging (which is the majority of runs) has lots of stress involved, and your success is determined by an arbitrary number who most player don't know how to use and became a gate for people who start later in the seasons or have a slower pace.

Raid: commitment requirement is super high, something that most player don't want or have. But it's hands down one of the best experiences in PvE when done right, the fights are much better than any M+ boss which revolves around a limited set of mechanics. Anyway, loot scarcity and quality is killing it, especially in comparison with M+ and especially when the VP system hits live - immediately everything up to HC is automatically useless. Last but not least, when you have it on farm, its challenge disappears due to gearing up or simple muscle memory, making it less appealing over time - M+ with its infinite scaling has always a challenge ready for players who want to partake in it.

This said, i don't think challenge has lots of impact on "who's better". Usually people who's set on challenges tackles both raid and M+ and people who's not interested, won't do. The fact is that for ALL PLAYERS, M+ is the way better and fastest way to progress and getting rewards from it is 1000x more satisfyng than raid, because you actually can get some of it the more you play. When you're done with the weekly raid and you didn't get shit, you're done for another week.

Since VP are getting back and i think they're a great solution for M+, Raids absolutely need something on the line. My idea is to have a sort of token system where you get some for each boss kill, and with those you cab buy any item from the raid you may need from a vendor. You can tie a rep in there that goes up with boss kills so you don't have people buying the last boss weapon week one, and you need different tokens for N/HC/M so you have to actually kill those bosses to get the loot. Maybe not the perfect solution but gives a deterministic outcome to scarcity and rng, since you can aim to specific drops and make boss kills useful even if you don't need drops from that specific one.

[Lolites]

No, bragging rights. I don't mean only boss first kills in wow, by sponsored teams. Any other game where you do something as the first, simply for fame and satisfaction

There are plenty of single player games, that people play on higher difficulty for no other reward than fun

Professional sport yes. But there is whole world outside of that. Being the king of the football in your neighbourhood, or the fastest among your friends

Pot and kettle. Maybe your world revolves around rewards and money. But it isn't the case for everyone else.

you say not everything gives reward, and then, while responding to my argument it does, you mention rewards yourself... just not material rewards, but still other rewards than just sense of accomplishment... and obviously higher the level you do something on higher the reward... btw he was talking about olympics and championships, like people do it on that level without any reward (they dont)

btw about the whole "world outside of professional sport", first of all even non-profgesional competitions have rewards, damn we have beer-marathon in our village that is literaly organised just for fun and still have rewards...
and second, if you check back the argument was about CHALLENGING things, so playing football with friends on street is hardly on topic... although its still debatable about the reward, you never made any bets while competing with your friends?

[procne]

you say not everything gives reward, and then, while responding to my argument it does, you mention rewards yourself... just not material rewards, but still other rewards than just sense of accomplishment... and obviously higher the level you do something on higher the reward... btw he was talking about olympics and championships, like people do it on that level without any monetary reward (they dont)

btw about the whole "world outside of professional sport", first of all even non-profgesional competitions have rewards, damn we have beer-marathon in our village that is literaly organised just for fun and still have rewards...
and second, if you check back the argument was about CHALLENGING things, so playing football with friends on street is hardly on topic... although its still debatable about the reward, you never made any bets while competing with your friends?

ok, fun and satisfaction are rewards in their own way, you are right.
Sheesh, what an idiotic thing to argue about

[cparle87]

I read that, and the first issue I found is this:

"HOWEVER, in practice portals have a history of being a burden on any society in which it is offered to the general public."

Realize, that we (the players) are not the general public, we are champions and in lore there are not millions of champions, only a few dozen (a raid). So this point is mute already and makes everything after pointless. Because, again, we are so few people using those portals. And further it states:

"...portal technology is the closest to becoming banished from anything but emergency usage."

Saving the world would count as an emergency use, right? If we gain more power more quickly by teleporting and thus saving Azeroth then, again, there is no counter-argument. Is the cost of potentially losing a ley-line worth more than losing azeroth as a whole? Hell, no.

All the stories we have participated in were as heroes of the horde/alliance and all events were world ending ones, as such the portal usage is not only crucial, it was mandatory and no leader of Azeroth would deny us champions the use of those portals, and they would also comply to making new ones on our demand BECAUSE we saved Azeroth so many times already.

While I do thank you for reading the post, I was actually trying to emphasize #2 and #5. That leylines are needed to safely open portals between spots and #5, that it's actually prohibited by law to open portals to anywhere but designated locations.

The nightborne teleport master, god I cannot his name right now, actually gives a lecture about how opening portals and teleporting to wherever you want to can cause the very fabric of reality to become brittle. So mage groups reinforce and strengthen certain places so it's safe to open portals there. Aka those designated drop places. Remember that the Legion was able to get to Azeroth the second time because theKirin Tor weakened reality with reckless magic use.

[Daffan]

people are addicted to loot and it ruined the game development, blizz was too much into welfare it has ruined them