Have We Become Overly Critical?

[OMGTwitchTV]

I think that when it comes to anima that there is a vlid question of why not hand us the keys to the kingdom? Is the game made more fun by locking all these little things away behind anima? I understand having a price to pay for the actual purchasable stuff, but is the mission table more fun because of the cost? Are the upgrades to the sanctum more fun because of the cost?

Probably not, because it wouldn't resolve the underlying problem of the system feeling like an unengaging time sink.

I don't think *anything* should be account wide. I think account wide anything is absolutely horrible for the game. I think the renown system is really neat and should have replaced reputation entirely. We should be getting renown with every covenant, with substantive and interesting rewards along the way, and it should NOT be time gated.

I appreciate it.

I feel like every MMO will have that hamster wheel feeling to it. "Grind more, grind longer, you need to stay subbed for all the goodies." Then after two years of grinding for high level raid gear, crafted greens replace them in 3 levels, or about a day and a half. We spend 2 years chasing gear to replace it in 36 hours. That's why I prefer the system in SWTOR. You get shell gear to which you can add raid worthy mods, and if you want to get super competitive, the other mods are easy to achieve in that content. Not every game needs to have the wealking to god power rise. Sometimes people simply want to play to relax, not to feel like they have a 2nd job that doesn't pay them.

[NineSpine]

I feel like every MMO will have that hamster wheel feeling to it. "Grind more, grind longer, you need to stay subbed for all the goodies." Then after two years of grinding for high level raid gear, crafted greens replace them in 3 levels, or about a day and a half. We spend 2 years chasing gear to replace it in 36 hours. That's why I prefer the system in SWTOR. You get shell gear to which you can add raid worthy mods, and if you want to get super competitive, the other mods are easy to achieve in that content. Not every game needs to have the wealking to god power rise. Sometimes people simply want to play to relax, not to feel like they have a 2nd job that doesn't pay them.

I dont think those hamster wheels need to be so unengaging through. Two ways to make them more meaningful is to lock content behind them and to lock meaningful horizontal progression behind them. WoW does neither. It makes all content available to you basically immediately when you hit max level.

[OMGTwitchTV]

Now if you were to ask me what the appropriate feedback mechanic is to these type of companies? Feedback through one's wallet and service cessation from the unhappy customer.

That was the exact point I made in a later post where you can lead a horse to water:

Ultimately, you can show people where to find or how to do something, but you cannot force them to act on it. In some cases, to make the horse thirsty enough to drink, you have to exercise it. In this case, the biggest voting power anyone has is their wallet, and the survey when unsubbing asks for a lot of detail. Even unsubbing for a single day, just to offer that sort of feedback can be powerful. I unsubbed several times in the past few DLCs because of the Pathfinder Achievement, and now, in Shadowlands, there is no Pathfinder. Changes can happen. Would I still rather get it at launch with level cap? Yes. Am I happy there is no more pathfinder? More than you know.

As for being a cop out, if two people came to me, one constructive, and one just angry, I would thank them both for their time and look into how to fix or implement the constructive idea while in the back of my head thinking, the angry guy can go fuck himself. None of us take being shouted at very well, even when the person is justifiably upset. I just feel I could get more flies with a picnic, than with a turd.

[Jonnusthegreat]

Nowhere did I express surprise. All I expressed was that your bullshit rivalled the stuff seen in the politics section of this forum.
Someone's not reading here...

Hmm, maybe the correct word to use should have been 'triggered' not surprised. My mistake. Still baffles me. Maybe I was just so surprised that someone on the internet thought that a growth mindset was bullshit, here in 2021, that I projected my surprise onto you.

[OMGTwitchTV]

I dont think those hamster wheels need to be so unengaging through. Two ways to make them more meaningful is to lock content behind them and to lock meaningful horizontal progression behind them. WoW does neither. It makes all content available to you basically immediately when you hit max level.

This was the first expansion in a long time where I can recall certain dungeons being off limits until you reached a certain place in the game. In BC, you could not run most of the stuff in Netherstorm until you could afford flying. We only saw four of the multiple dungeons available in this expac and had to hit level cap just to unlock them. I feel as though there is plenty of gating, but those restraints could be lifted and the system tweaked a bit to make it feel more like a journey and less like a task. One of the things BFA actually did well, was the way they wrapped the zone stories into the dungeons and made the Siege of Boralus the wrap up to the low level content. Where I feel we could do better is loot drops and I would almost love to do away with random loot from dungeon bosses and return to the tokens of Wrath where upgrades and improvements came from a better level of RNG.

[Kyriani]

My primary criticism of Blizzard regarding wow has been the same for some time now. Too much focus on systems, and not enough focus on content.

I'd really like Blizzard to learn when they actually get something right, and stick with it. Change for the sake of change is unnecessary and wasteful. Creating new systems every expansion robs us of content for that expansion. Having to inevitably fix those systems during the expansion robs us of even more content. And the icing on the cake is when those systems are abandoned, only to waste more time making new systems in the next expansion instead of using those resources to make content for that expansion. Systems are not content IMO, and reinventing the wheel every 2 years is an inefficient use of time and resources.

Many FFXIV players are critical of SquareEnix sticking to their formula for FFXIV every expansion, but there's something to be said about consistently knowing what you're going to get, and when you're going to get. It's also comforting to know that things you are familiar and comfortable with aren't likely to change drastically from expansion to expasion.

That's not to say drastic change never happens, or that new systems aren't added to FFXIV, but such things are far less frequent and typically not abandoned 2 years later. I wish Blizzard would take an approach closer to this. It's not that I don't want new innovations, just that I'd like to see a certain level of consistency from expansion to expansion, and for worthwhile systems to be carried forward instead of making new systems every time. Sometimes it's okay for an expansion to just have a ton of different quests, dungeons, raids, world pvp objectives, and battlegrounds, instead of new systems that need fixing every patch.

[Alanar]

You need to pay more attention to the feedback that was delivered. The feedback was that it took too long, that it felt bad to not be able to "complete" something, that it felt bad for your powers to determine too much about your run, that it shouldn't be mandatory, etc.. Those are the things the streamers and demanded. What they didn't realize is that getting what they want would ruin the feature, and it did. Then, the streamers turn around and act baffled why it sucks now.

It's exactly what I'm talking about: Players demand things, get what they want, and then act confused why the game sucks. It sucks because THEY AREN'T DESIGNERS so implementing their requests will make a bad game. What's a camel? A horse designed by committee.

I am not sure it went entirely that way, the last minute changes is what made Thorghast bad and it realy wasnt what players were asking for at all.. I mean I was in the beta myself and it was just a better experience.

Again.. I just dont agree entirely with your innitial statement that player requests or listening to feedback made the game bad. I think not listening to feedback is not good either.

[Argorwal]

Ok. You are entitled to that level of naivety, that the game director has no influence on massive systems changes.

Of course he has an input.

But speed running dungeons has been something their team actively has worked in since Cata (to be ready for MoP). This isn’t some new idea by Ion.

Also Ion is a raid logger who barely participate in mythic+.

[Alanar]

Well yeah. I am not saying wow is perfect. I also think that the whole customization thing came A) way to late and B) is not nearly enough, like seriously. Half of the customizations don't even change anything about the model itself or has an impact on armor. Like Nightborne... heavens... 3 faces? Really?
Or sets and their lack of them.

I played Eso, Aion, Swotor, GW 1 and 2, FF14 and none of them could keep me because while they have some parts that are arguably better than wow overall the issues they have are bigger than wows (for me) and after maybe 1 or 2 month i get anoyed with it and go back to wow.

Yea I agree and ye some parts are better then others. My personal issue with games like eso and swtor for example just had big fps issues and jusy silly lag that was unacceptable. That has always been the main reason for to go back to wow is that the game just plays smooth. Now tho games become better, but offer silly things that should be free and should be part in a game like this. Like you said wow just lacks one of the most important things of an mmo which is costumization.

[Toppy]

I feel like submitting solid feedback to the bug forum, rather than semi-coherent or ranted feedback through the General Forum, or a fan site like this one, would go much further, much faster. Granted, they cannot fix it all, but at least in the bug forum it could be pinned in a parking lot and reviewed at a later date. I've made several suggestions for things I was not fond of in the bug report, and more than half of them were fixed in 6 months. They were likely very easy, low hanging fruit sort of fixes, but they do listen, then address it in an upcoming patch. Mind you, this is only from personal experience, everyone else could have a completely different and not-so-happy experience.

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There is nothing wrong with asking questions, or offering constructive advice to improve this or future products. I just feel like someone giving the "this who expansion fucking sucks" as criticism is hardly helpful, or necessary. That to me reads tantrum, not criticism.

You're again pushing a false narrative.

Each patch, each expansion, there are very well organized and focused feedback threads made by the community with both criticisms and suggestions that are very focused. Its gotten lesser and lesser with time (from WoD and on) but its very much a thing that happens.

There is also an invite only private feedback forum that we've come to learn that after MoP, blizzard mostly just uses to tell people they're wrong.

So please, stop defending blizzards bullshit by blaming players.

[Jonnusthegreat]

Definitely some projecting going on lol

If this counts as "triggered" to you, oh boy. You have my sympathy.

All in a day's work.

[shoc]

MMO players have always been overly critical, I mean, World of Warcraft literally wouldn't exist if not for overly critical nerds.

Both Jeff Kaplan and Ion come to mind.

Jeff Kaplan: "Whoever came up with this sheer fisting of an encounter can go fuck themselves. Do me a favor so I don't waste my guild's time on this kind of jackass shit-fest again, send me an email at tigole@legacyofsteel.net when you decide to A) Implement an encounter that wasn't designed by a retarded chimp chained to a cubicle A.)Get a Quality Assuarance Department C) Actually beta test the fucking thing and D) Patch it live. And please for god's sake -- do it in the order I laid out for you. Don't worry, I won't charge you a consulting fee on that one. And for good luck you might as well E) Pull your heads out of your asses. While you're at it rename the game to BetaQuest since you've used up you're alotted false advertising karma on the Bazaar and user interface scam of '01.Fix the Emperor encounter. Fix Seru. Rethink your time-sink bullshit. Fix all the buggy motherfucking ring encounters (I suggest you let whoever made the Burrower one do this since that dude apparently laid off the crack the rest of you were smoking). Fix the VT key quest. Fix VT (just guessing it's fucked up considering your track record). Don't have the resources to fix this stuff? Move the ENTIRE Planes of Power team over to fixing Shadows of Luclin AND DO IT NOW. If you don't fix Luclin, you jackassess will be the only ones playing the Planes of Power."

Ion Hazzikostas: Dares’s post above basically nails it completely. I don’t agree that Phase 1 needs to be toned down, honestly — on our better days, we’d consistently get to phase 2 in about 6 minutes, with 38-39 alive (40 if we wanted to use battle rezzes), and good mana. It’s fine. In theory there are unfair and unlucky ways to die in phase 1. In practice those “unlucky” things seem to happen to some people a whole lot more than others, and never happen at all to still others.

Anyway, phase 2. Basically, I don’t think many people really care much about “trade secrets” anymore. I just want to see C’Thun killed, and I don’t really care remotely as much as I once did if we’re the first to do it. Some further insight into C’Thun phase 2:

Every 30 seconds, 8 small eye tentacles pop up, spread throughout the room. They immediately begin mind flaying a random target in the room for 750/second, unresistable. Each has 2300 hp. If all 8 don’t die within a couple of seconds of spawning, people are taking some serious damage. On two separate 40-second timers, C’Thun summons two types of giant tentacles. He randomly targets players and summons the tentacles under them. Anyone with a spawn beneath them, or near that spawn, takes 3k-4k damage and goes flying across the room.

Both types of tentacles melee for > 1.5k on a t2-geared tank. They hurt. Giant Claws thrash, and will one-shot anyone who is not a tank. If untanked, they will burrow and reemerge beneath healers, doing that fun 3k-4k damage + knockback effect. This means a dead healer. The other type of tentacle is a Giant Eye, which repeatedly uses the same Eye Beam attack that the Eye of C’Thun uses in Phase 1. The Claws have >90k hp, and the Eyes have ~40k. There is no cap on the number of Giant Tentacles that can be alive at once. We’ve seen 5 Claws and 2 Eyes at the same time, which is fun, let me tell you. Throughout this all, every 10 seconds, C’Thun eats a player, teleporting them into his stomach, where they have other hazards to deal with.

Basically, over the course of every 60 second period, the encounter requires your raid to do roughly 230k damage in order to keep up with the various spawns. Now, a 40-man raid can certainly accomplish that on a single target. But when some people are in C’Thun’s stomach, and the targets of that DPS are spread throughout the room, and when clustering at all (i.e., to melee burn down a specific tentacle) means that you get destroyed by a spawning tentacle or a jumping eye beam, the end result is simply impossible.

I would love for someone to prove me wrong.

Quote: Been tried. Basically, anything you might think of, it’s been tried. After a couple of weeks of beating our heads against phase 2 head-on, we came to the conclusion that there had to be some gimmick because the fight was impossible otherwise. We tried basically everything, and if we didn’t, I can guarantee you that one of the hundreds of other creative tacticians working on this fight across multiple continents did.

[Kelduril]

Hilarious. Officer in a CE guild, thanks. Your understanding of what actually determines the difficulty of encounters is fucking terrible.

You keep giving me your opinions on myself like I'm your absentee dad. Have I not made it clear that I think very little of you? Yes.

Then why do you keep insisting on telling me about your feelings?

You're 100% in the hard carry category

My logs would prove otherwise.

That is a factor, but it is related to other factors

Not once have I said it's the only factor. But it's still a huge factor. 10 man raids would be far easier than 20 man raids unless they overtune them to hell and back.

[xero5141]

In other news, fire is hot and water is wet.

Water is definitely not wet. Other things get wet when water touches them though

[Alanar]

The thing is that they conveniently forget to mention all the downsides those other MMOs have.

Be that an ever diminishing playerbase, or things such as stores where you need to PAY to change things like eye color and such.
People tend to be more critical in choosing which game to spend time in than they are when choosing tires for their car, or electrician to secure the newly renovated bathroom's electrics. If aaaall those other MMORPGs did the entirety better, they'd be the bigger games.

But they're not.

For comparison to the reasoning of some: I can like the local bakery's rye bread better than anything that's on the market, but that doesn't mean there's not mass-produced bread that gives people just as much bang for their buck (cheaper too) on the market. That is a fact no matter how much I hipster-screech about it. And there's downsides to my local baker too. The bread is expensive, they often run out of stock and they got far less variety on offer than the bread shelves at the grocery store.

In fact, I stopped shopping from the local baker when I found what I suspect to be a bit of fingernail in the loaf, but that's another topic...

So yeah, whilst other MMORPGs do several things right, they do a whole lot wrong too. That just seems to get lost in translation, or maybe the people hailing them haven't actually PLAYED them... Wouldn't surprise me. <.<

I understand where you coming from and the same can be said about wow. Different games different goals I guess.

Il take swtor as an example, because I though they did eveything better compared to wow, but was unplayable do to their engine and they kinda went like: do you guys have bad pcs?? It wasnt smoorh, but offered options that you expect in an mmorpg. I only played their vanilla state and havent checked back ever since.

But yea you are right, but at the the same time, warcraft was already popular before wow and had huge fanbase. Compared to newer mmos with new stories dont have that kind of start, while it may even be a better game.

[Paula Deen]

I think yes. I think people individually go through stages where they begin to recognize it and correct. I was overly critical during pretty much the entire run time of Legion until I actually ended up on Argus and saw the amazing artwork the team did with Azeroth swirling on in the background. I think what prompts the behavior indidually is bad experiences over an extended time. Especially in the case of WoD and mostly in the case of BFA Launch.

I do feel though people are way more critical than they should be.

[Toppy]

I think yes. I think people individually go through stages where they begin to recognize it and correct. I was overly critical during pretty much the entire run time of Legion until I actually ended up on Argus and saw the amazing artwork the team did with Azeroth swirling on in the background. I think what prompts the behavior indidually is bad experiences over an extended time. Especially in the case of WoD and mostly in the case of BFA Launch.

I do feel though people are way more critical than they should be.

So you provided feedback and was critical of the game.

But its ok because the art team, as always, are the only ones who put in effort?

[Elkfingers]

You keep giving me your opinions on myself like I'm your absentee dad. Have I not made it clear that I think very little of you? Yes.

Then why do you keep insisting on telling me about your feelings?

My logs would prove otherwise.

Not once have I said it's the only factor. But it's still a huge factor. 10 man raids would be far easier than 20 man raids unless they overtune them to hell and back.

Listen fella I'm not interested in your daddy issues. You not knowing how difficulty works isn't an opinion, or a feeling I have. It's evident from what you've written so far.

Obviously if you took a 20 man raid and changed nothing other than the number of players to scale it to a 10 man, it would be easier. That's why you would change more than just the number of players to make the difficulty equivalent. That's not overtuning. That's tuning.

If we agree on this point, then if we go back to 8 player raids being inherently worse by virtue of being easy because there are fewer players...well that's just not true, is it? Why it's taken so long to get to this point I will never know.

[ashblond]

Critical thinking is what we need.

And Blizz simps make the game worse for everyone.

[Paula Deen]

So you provided feedback and was critical of the game.

But its ok because the art team, as always, are the only ones who put in effort?

Nah. I was critical during Legion because I was so horribly jaded because of how ass WoD was. Art team drew me out of it and some years later I look back on Legion quite fondly.