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  1. #101
    Pit Lord
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    Quote Originally Posted by Echocho View Post
    Then I'd like to throw priests in there too. They can also tank.
    Priests dont have an entire spec for that or a single piece in their toolkit that would allow it. you're being intentionally obtuse

  2. #102
    The Patient
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    Quote Originally Posted by anon5123 View Post
    Nice logical fallacy. You're taking one example of a raid mechanic from the easiest boss of the easiest raid in vanilla, and extrapolating that to the entire game.

    Look at almost any other boss in MC, and there will be a mechanic that can kill you and/or wipe the raid if not handled properly:

    Lucifron: Dispels, mind controls
    Gehennas: Dispels, rain of fire
    Garr: Add tanking, add explosions
    Baron Geddon: Bomb, Inferno
    Shazzrah: Arcane Explosion, Teleport, Dispels
    Golemagg: Add tanking, Earthquake
    Majordomo: Add CC, AoE damage
    Rag: Almost everything on this fight can fuck you up if you don't handle it properly

    Try again.

    The mechanics are simpler, but have dire consequences for not executing them properly. That's the difference between vanilla and retail.
    Driving a car can kill you if not done properly. That doesn't make it hard.

  3. #103
    Quote Originally Posted by Gorsameth View Post
    CN 9 days
    Ny'alotha 10 days
    Palace 13 days
    Crucible was 11?
    Dazar'alor 8 days.
    Uldir 9 days.

    Classic: Naxx took 1 hour and 20 minutes
    AQ40 was 38 minutes
    BWL was 23 minutes

    Yeah totally the same thing.....
    Obviously tactics not being known is a big thing. But that won't stop people from pretending that TBC will be when things really get hard.
    yeah and this is insanely fast....


    Quote Originally Posted by Bjay View Post
    Driving a car can kill you if not done properly. That doesn't make it hard.
    Since there is so many accidents every year all over the globe i guess this statment is funny.

  4. #104
    Quote Originally Posted by Frozenbro View Post
    Cause wow players in general are just that bad, not because the content was ever hard

  5. #105
    Quote Originally Posted by Eldar45 View Post
    No. No they are not. The bosses run the gambit of difficulty, and some of them are LFR easy, but if you think Sapp, KT, 4 Horseman, Loatheb, C'thun, Twin Emps, Viscidus, Patchwerk are on the same difficulty as even Sire Denathrius LFR then you are actually insane.

    Even Noth would cause multiple raid wipes in LFR, even to the point of being a hard wall for LFR. Because the mages won't decurse.
    What is difficult on 4 horseman? You need around 8 tanks, that's it. Even Naxxramas is around as difficult as LFR was around Throne of Thunder (and don't have any idea how it is in lfr in shadowlands, since i don't play anymore). The only thing is that Naxxramas is a huge jump up in difficulty from before and the Gear is vastly superior from naxx than any other raid before, so the upgrade there really matters for it.

    Only the one shot mechanics there makes naxx very difficult compared to everything before. But i raided naxx in vanilla and found it not as hard as everyone think it is.

    Especially nowadays with DBM&Co it's fricking easy.

  6. #106
    Quote Originally Posted by GongBaoChicken View Post
    You know this is a lie.
    You know damn well those bosses would have been tanked and spanked into oblivion within hours of being released by the more devoted groups/guilds.
    You know damn well the saying "it was hard because we didn't know what we were doing" is at least partially true.

    Not sure why so many toxic, elitist myths persisted within the Classic community.
    wouldnt really have made any difference.

  7. #107
    Quote Originally Posted by Velerios View Post
    What is difficult on 4 horseman? You need around 8 tanks, that's it. Even Naxxramas is around as difficult as LFR was around Throne of Thunder
    That's just so clownish, you look like a forum guy caricature.

  8. #108
    I think old high-end raiders were as skilled as those today, but they lacked the time to do proper theorycrafting. And in Classic, everything is math. Strats were never an issue.
    Thinking about talent trees (instead of deep prot), which items are the best (with Vanilla you must even look back at 45+ items), which buffs matter, takes a lot of analysis to see how to get the biggest impact on stats.
    It would not have been possible to do that between Naxx release and TBC release.

  9. #109
    1.12.1 was Vanilla easy mode for new players/classic players, it was literally all the boss nerfs and class tuning right before TBC pre patch. Still have some stupid doubt that it didn't, compare the time it took to kill Rag in Vanilla WoW to Classic WoW....SPOILER the difference is 154 days almost

  10. #110
    Quote Originally Posted by Hexme View Post
    1.12.1 was Vanilla easy mode for new players/classic players, it was literally all the boss nerfs and class tuning right before TBC pre patch. Still have some stupid doubt that it didn't, compare the time it took to kill Rag in Vanilla WoW to Classic WoW....SPOILER the difference is 154 days almost
    That still doesn't explain why Naxxramas was also easy and in the end it really doesn't matter. Classic being easy is one of its strengths not one of the weaknesses. The biggest problem in my opinion with retail WoW is that both the raids and the higher dungeon keys in m+ are so incredibly difficult that you can't just bring your friends and have fun, you have to perform at a very high level and good people are often pushed to the side in favor of high performers that may not be as fun to play with.

  11. #111
    Quote Originally Posted by zealo View Post
    Strip away the world buffs meta, and a lot of classic guilds that are currently 15/15 in Naxx would start wiping a ton, and become unable to get past bosses that they previously "beat".

    It shouldn't be underestimated just how cancerous the world buffs meta is
    I agree, it is cancer. It means I have to log on around 18:15 for a raid that starts at 20:00. It pretty much wrecks the time I have between getting home from work and raiding and which I used to use for household chores like making dinner.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Velerios View Post
    What is difficult on 4 horseman? You need around 8 tanks, that's it.
    There's also the small matter of keeping those tanks alive. And then keeping everyone else alive. 4HM may not be difficult in concept, but there are not many fights before it where you have to coordinate and time movements to the second.

  12. #112
    What made Classic Vanilla "so easy" is the meta World Buffs and 20+ Warriors and Rogues in most raids.
    We could’ve played with Rets, Owls, Shadow Priests, Eng/Ele Shamans, Affliction Warlocks, Smite Priests and all the reat like people dud 16 years ago ...but we know better and chose not to do so.
    WoW Classic wasn’t easy because it launched on a later patch with better itemization, WoW Classic was easy because it’s a piss poor game when it comes to class/spec balance and developmemt. But this is what people wanted, for some reason (I’m not one of the #NoChanges people). Imagine how much harder, and better, Classic Vanilla would’ve been if Warriors and Rogues were nerfed by 40% and then the lower end specs buffed by 40%? You’d actually see more of the game!
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  13. #113
    Quote Originally Posted by Echocho View Post
    Classic is ridiculously easy. Naxxramas definitely proved that, delusional people could no longer blame the patch version.
    No wonder with almost 13 years of private server training stuff gets killed pretty quickly. Some people here still do not understand how impactful privat servers are when it comes to fast clearing old content. I myself also play on a wotlk private server and will also oneshot everything as soon as it comes out. No matter with what gear and what content level. Years of training so to speak

  14. #114
    Over 9000! zealo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flarelaine View Post
    I agree, it is cancer. It means I have to log on around 18:15 for a raid that starts at 20:00. It pretty much wrecks the time I have between getting home from work and raiding and which I used to use for household chores like making dinner.

    - - - Updated - - -



    There's also the small matter of keeping those tanks alive. And then keeping everyone else alive. 4HM may not be difficult in concept, but there are not many fights before it where you have to coordinate and time movements to the second.
    A lot of people get around that by picking up those buffs earlier in the week, and then just not playing those characters at all until they have to log in for raid time.

    Obviously, that's a problem in itself too that what you have to do to manage getting ready for raid time means you can't even play your character in the days before it.

  15. #115
    Everyone wants to think what they did was an accomplishment and don't want it destroyed by the fact of the truth and that's the vanilla wasn't hard. When it came out, sure but not because the content itself was hard.

    You had PS players who wanted to brag about this awesome hard content they've been doing while retail players had it "easy"
    You had the wannabe vanilla players who never even raided that wanted to seem special

    Imagine comparing any fight in classic to modern WoW, imagine if classic fights had the mechanics and tuning of Heroic Rag, Mythic KJ or even Mythic Archimonde. No Classic isn't hard, by any means. And to all the kids saying TBC will be hard? no, it won't. M'uru will be 1 shot, quote me on it in a year.

  16. #116
    Stood in the Fire Whistl3r's Avatar
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    Not entirely sure how thats not 100% accurate and proven.

  17. #117
    Quote Originally Posted by Velerios View Post
    What is difficult on 4 horseman? You need around 8 tanks, that's it. Even Naxxramas is around as difficult as LFR was around Throne of Thunder (and don't have any idea how it is in lfr in shadowlands, since i don't play anymore). The only thing is that Naxxramas is a huge jump up in difficulty from before and the Gear is vastly superior from naxx than any other raid before, so the upgrade there really matters for it.

    Only the one shot mechanics there makes naxx very difficult compared to everything before. But i raided naxx in vanilla and found it not as hard as everyone think it is.

    Especially nowadays with DBM&Co it's fricking easy.
    Do you really think a random group of 40 people, pulled from an LFR que, would have the coordination to have tanks and healers move on their correct mark? You have way more faith in the general player than I do.

    The vast majority of an LFR raid would die within four ticks of the horseman's marks, and they would never figure out why. You would cycle through so many tanks trying to get ones that would actually listen to the taunt sequence. It's not a hard boss fight, but it is way to difficult for LFR. Most LFR raiders would be crushed by any normal mode boss.

  18. #118
    The Unstoppable Force DeltrusDisc's Avatar
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    Didn't 1.12.1 lower health of bosses, etc, and increase player power?
    Wouldn't this in turn, yes, make everything easier? Hmmmmm

    This is honestly what I am concerned about with TBC - they start us on patch 2.3 or whatever it was and everything is already essentially a faceroll. I want some of the TBC heroic and raid challenge still.
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    Quote Originally Posted by mmocd061d7bab8 View Post
    yeh but lava is just very hot water

  19. #119
    Quote Originally Posted by GongBaoChicken View Post
    You know this is a lie.
    You know damn well those bosses would have been tanked and spanked into oblivion within hours of being released by the more devoted groups/guilds.
    You know damn well the saying "it was hard because we didn't know what we were doing" is at least partially true.

    Not sure why so many toxic, elitist myths persisted within the Classic community.
    Just because it would have still been easily defeated by dedicated players it doesn't mean it wasn't easier. Classic WoW in the final patch is not the same game as it was earlier, the same will be exactly true for TBC. We will get 2.4.3, which is very different to 2.1, which itself is very different from 2.0.
    Probably running on a Pentium 4

  20. #120
    Quote Originally Posted by DeltrusDisc View Post
    Didn't 1.12.1 lower health of bosses, etc, and increase player power?
    Wouldn't this in turn, yes, make everything easier? Hmmmmm

    This is honestly what I am concerned about with TBC - they start us on patch 2.3 or whatever it was and everything is already essentially a faceroll. I want some of the TBC heroic and raid challenge still.
    They said we would get the pre-nerf bosses (and it might means the pre-nerf heroics too).

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