Racism in Top End guilds exposed.

[rhorle]

Didn't say that I do. But punishing someone for hate speech isn't that easy, either. Where do you draw a line? If someone says "I hate black people", should they be punished? Or should they be punished only if they actively try to offend people with their views? Saying that people that do X should be punished is pretty vague. There has been several cases of hate speech being punished here, but only by fines so far, as far as I know.

It is pretty clear where to draw the line. Saying you hate someone isn't hate speech and it shows a gross lack of education on the topic if you even think that would be the case. It isn't vague to punish hate speech, racism, and other things that no one should do. It is the entire basis for crimes.

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Also, is your mind folding itself into pretzels, or are you just increasingly desperate to score a point in this discussion?

How can I be increasingly desperate when nothing I'm saying has changed? Weird that you keep turning this to insults and stuff. Why are you afraid of simply discussing the topic with out all the unnecessary distractions? But sure you aren't riled up in the slightest. Lol.

[Tech614]

should have heard early xbox 360 online chat. lol you think wow is bad?

"Online gaming was a shit hole 15 years ago so just deal with it and make no progress in said 15 years"

Weak whataboutism.

[gaymer77]

being annoyed at crying toddlers is not "being unable to handle it". i can handle it just fine. but my god was it more fun without them whimpering in voice comms.

Seeing how I put up with their racist and homophobic bullshit for several days a week for several hours per night for nearly a month AND never spoke up until that final night, I wouldn't say that I was being a "crying toddler" or that I was "unable to handle it". The toxic environment was taking a toll on my mental and physical health. I would strongly suggest Goggling "Troxed soundboard" just to hear a small fraction of what was said by the GM Troxed during every single raid for several hours per raid. If you've heard the 50 DKP minus clip that doesn't even compare to how Troxed and War Ensemble ran in their heyday. And if not using racial slurs, homophobic slurs,and not screaming at people for several hours per raid night means its not "fun" then you're the one with bigger problems than Troxed or the other toxic people referenced in the reddit thread. Raiding does not have to be about who can scream, cuss, and put down the most people in order to be successful. I've been in plenty of guilds since then that are able to raid fairly well without putting up with any of that kind of bullshit. Raiding does not need to be stressful nor toxic to those involved but apparently YOU feel otherwise.

[Yarathir]

should have heard early xbox 360 online chat. lol you think wow is bad?

They just today found out that that level of chat didn't really disappear. Those people didn't just magically turn into gutmenschen. They just understood the public sphere was changing so they pulled it in and kept it a little more private while having a child friendly public face.

Shocking!

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Seeing how I put up with their racist and homophobic bullshit for several days a week for several hours per night for nearly a month AND never spoke up until that final night, I wouldn't say that I was being a "crying toddler" or that I was "unable to handle it". The toxic environment was taking a toll on my mental and physical health. I would strongly suggest Goggling "Troxed soundboard" just to hear a small fraction of what was said by the GM Troxed during every single raid for several hours per raid. If you've heard the 50 DKP minus clip that doesn't even compare to how Troxed and War Ensemble ran in their heyday. And if not using racial slurs, homophobic slurs,and not screaming at people for several hours per raid night means its not "fun" then you're the one with bigger problems than Troxed or the other toxic people referenced in the reddit thread. Raiding does not have to be about who can scream, cuss, and put down the most people in order to be successful. I've been in plenty of guilds since then that are able to raid fairly well without putting up with any of that kind of bullshit. Raiding does not need to be stressful nor toxic to those involved but apparently YOU feel otherwise.

I don't think any of what he said was aimed to you and all that you said is more of a problem with raid leaders using their authority to rant and endlessly harass people, which is a bad thing if inescapable and ever-present, slurs or not.

I mean, I sympathize, but it feels like you latched onto a reply that never sought to undermine what you said.

[Exkrementor]

How boring must your life be and how little do you have to value your time to get outraged about some dudes making edgy jokes in their private discord channel?
Its 2021 and you cant say shit anymore without triggering a shitstorm fueled by dying media to generate some hateclicks. People talk this way and they make these kinds of jokes all the time in private anyway, the only reason you dont see it anymore is because we live in fucking 1984.

This behaviour will not go away, no matter how hard you try to censor everything and its nothing wrong with that. These people arent racist, they are just trying to be funny to their friends.

[Machismo]

How boring must your life be and how little do you have to value your time to get outraged about some dudes making edgy jokes in their private discord channel?
Its 2021 and you cant say shit anymore without triggering a shitstorm fueled by dying media to generate some hateclicks. People talk this way and they make these kinds of jokes all the time in private anyway, the only reason you dont see it anymore is because we live in fucking 1984.

This behaviour will not go away, no matter how hard you try to censor everything and its nothing wrong with that. These people arent racist, they are just trying to be funny to their friends.

As far as I can tell, the government isn't going after them at all... so much for it being 1984

This is exactly what freedom of speech looks like. People saying what they want, and others being free to show the world what they said.

[Tech614]

As far as I can tell, the government isn't going after them at all... so much for it being 1984

This is exactly what freedom of speech looks like. People saying what they want, and others being free to show the world what they said.

Racists and not understanding freedom of speech. Name a more iconic duo.

[Exkrementor]

Racists and not understanding freedom of speech. Name a more iconic duo.

Leftists and not understanding freedom of speech would be one.



"Bro, you can say whatever you want but then you also have to accept the consequences, bro."

Consequences like being banned from a plattform or losing your job in the western world or consequences like losing your social credit score or going to prison in the more chinese world.

[Machismo]

Leftists and not understanding freedom of speech would be one.



"Bro, you can say whatever you want but then you also have to accept the consequences, bro."

Consequences like being banned from a plattform or losing your job in the western world or consequences like losing your social credit score or going to prison in the more chinese world.

That is a company exercising their freedom of speech and their freedom of association. That's what freedom of speech is all about.

People are free to say racist shit, and a company is free to not associate with people who say racist shit.

As for China, they despise freedom of speech. Luckily, this isn't such a case, and free speech remains fully intact. let me know if the government steps in to punish these racist shitbags.

[Tech614]

Leftists and not understanding freedom of speech would be one.



"Bro, you can say whatever you want but then you also have to accept the consequences, bro."

Consequences like being banned from a plattform or losing your job in the western world or consequences like losing your social credit score or going to prison in the more chinese world.

Imagine proving my point while trying to disprove it. My man actually doesn't understand freedom of speech.

[OrcsRLame]

That is a company exercising their freedom of speech and their freedom of association. That's what freedom of speech is all about.

People are free to say racist shit, and a company is free to not associate with people who say racist shit.

As for China, they despise freedom of speech. Luckily, this isn't such a case, and free speech remains fully intact. let me know if the government steps in to punish these racist shitbags.

You're confused about what freedom of speech is, probably because you're American and everyone you know has taught you incorrectly.

Freedom of speech is a concept from Greek philosophy that was revived by early enlightenment thinkers. It means, quite simply, that in a general sense, one is free to speak their mind without consequences.

Where you've become confused is you have equated freedom of speech with an American law, part of the Constitution, called the First Amendment. The First Amendment states, "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."

This law is where people get the idea that Freedom of Speech is somehow related to the government because of the abridging the freedom of speech part.

It'd be kind of like if there was a law that specifically said the government isn't allowed to murder people and then you said because of that it's not possible for a private citizen to unjustly kill someone. It's a non-sequitur.

[MatthewOU2015]

37 pages and this is still going. Not worth the energy arguing with the ignorant

[Voidwielder]

Fandys milkers, lmao.

[GUZ]

Here we go again!

I CAN USE BIG FONT TOO
I think u cut out the rest of my comment cherry-picking what suits ur narrative

[Machismo]

You're confused about what freedom of speech is, probably because you're American and everyone you know has taught you incorrectly.

Freedom of speech is a concept from Greek philosophy that was revived by early enlightenment thinkers. It means, quite simply, that in a general sense, one is free to speak their mind without consequences.

Where you've become confused is you have equated freedom of speech with an American law, part of the Constitution, called the First Amendment. The First Amendment states, "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."

This law is where people get the idea that Freedom of Speech is somehow related to the government because of the abridging the freedom of speech part.

It'd be kind of like if there was a law that specifically said the government isn't allowed to murder people and then you said because of that it's not possible for a private citizen to unjustly kill someone. It's a non-sequitur.

I'm an American, and we have a very clear First Amendment.

This is private property, and property owners also have rights, including the right to boot people off their fucking property.

So, unless you believe that someone should be free to come into your home, say whatever they want, and you are not allowed to kick them out...

Is that the case? Did the Greeks believe in property rights?

[OrcsRLame]

I'm an American, and we have a very clear First Amendment.

This is private property, and property owners also have rights, including the right to boot people off their fucking property.

So, unless you believe that someone should be free to come into your home, say whatever they want, and you are not allowed to kick them out...

Is that the case? Did the Greeks believe in property rights?

I think you have misunderstood my point. Nothing I said had anything to do with property rights.

What I take issue with, is you saying that Freedom of Speech is only about the government suppressing your speech. I take issue with that because that's not only a misinterpretation of one of your own laws, but you're taking ownership of a concept that isn't American.

Freedom of speech existed before America. You don't get to just make a law and suddenly decide that your law is a synonym for that ancient idea. It's stupid American exceptionalism.

So when you talk about the First Amendment, talk about the First Amendment please. Don't lie about Freedom of Speech.

[Revamp Man]

thats a big wall of "my feefee's were hurt". get over it lol you did the right thing by leaving, cause my god, ive been in some guilds with similar people like you in this post, and their cry baby shit was super annoying to hear.

he also sounds petty AF
"he was a terrible raid lead so i sat in the instance dead so the other 24 ppl couldnt finish the run"
he even got angry at the GM for porting him out so the group could finish their raid

[gaymer77]

I don't think any of what he said was aimed to you and all that you said is more of a problem with raid leaders using their authority to rant and endlessly harass people, which is a bad thing if inescapable and ever-present, slurs or not.

I mean, I sympathize, but it feels like you latched onto a reply that never sought to undermine what you said.

I'd suggest rereading the stuff The Oblivion was replying to. He was called out about people complaining about the use of racial slurs and stuff from someone else after my initial reply to this thread.

[fohpo]

Just pointing out, the Founding Fathers never intended for "freedom of speech" to imply that you're free to say absolutely anything you want. It was more intended so that you were free to discuss civil problems in society without fear of repercussions (IE, you can argue that taxes are a violation of your rights without soldiers coming to your house). I get that Amendments in the Constitution are constantly warped to fit whatever lame duck argument you want to make, but even the Supreme Court has recognized that free speech isn't all encompassing (bomb or fire in a theater?). Make your free speech arguments all you like, but it only shows that you're ignorant and have no real knowledge of Constitutional law or that you know what you're talking about. Please, by all means, continue to defend hate speech under the guise of the First Amendment though.

[Machismo]

I think you have misunderstood my point. Nothing I said had anything to do with property rights.

What I take issue with, is you saying that Freedom of Speech is only about the government suppressing your speech. I take issue with that because that's not only a misinterpretation of one of your own laws, but you're taking ownership of a concept that isn't American.

Freedom of speech existed before America. You don't get to just make a law and suddenly decide that your law is a synonym for that ancient idea. It's stupid American exceptionalism.

So when you talk about the First Amendment, talk about the First Amendment please. Don't lie about Freedom of Speech.

it has everything to do with property rights, because that old concept of free speech comes into direct conflict with property rights. At some point, something has to give.

The concept of free speech simply doesn't work in a world with private property. When two rights conflict with one another, then one will win out. Not only would you be attacking the property owners property rights, but also their own freedom of speech and freedom of association.

Nah, fuck that.