This expansion showcased how people do not enjoy m+ at all

[munkeyinorbit]

moneymaking via twitch says hi



weird argument to say in a topic about WoW... as that is pretty much the base of wow that higher difficulty content gives better rewards...
which is pretty much true about all games, higher difficulty usualy gives better rewards, be it xp, items, or simply achievments...

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the fact you know about him shows fame (or prestige if youd prefer) might be his motivation...

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THEY
GET
MONEY

every goddamn sport competition, be it olympics or low village league with 10 people competeing does have some reward for wining... have you NEVER compete in anything if you dont realise that?!
this is pointless you just repeat the same shit like broken record despite being explained you are wrong even with goddamn examples, its like arguing with mentaly slow child... im done

You completely misunderstand the word amateur. It means they do not get paid for it. That means they are competing for the love and accomplishments of the sport. When I was 11 my soccer team won the 2nd division under 12 championship. We got nothing but the knowledge that we were the best 2nd division u12 soccer team. No trophy, no medal, no funding, and no money. We won every game and we did it because we loved the sport.

[Stardrift]

yes, and runing a marathon is not difficult either, if you have a week for it, but runing it under 3h is still difficult... difficulty =/= complexity...
and in raids timer is occasionaly used too, be it direct (enrage) or "dps check" mechanics...



wouldnt that go againts the whole point why M+ was made - alternate progresion path?

i think like it is now its fine, you can gear via M+ if you want to, but best gear is still behind raiding, M+ gives you only one good RANDOM item a week, so obviously it shouldnt be too low, otherwise the whole vault would be pointless

Progression has never meant less than it has now thanks to M+. Seasonal rewards and raid titles/achievements are all there is to earn now.

[Logwyn]

WoW is, and has always been a loot-driven game. Just like any other MMORPG since the beginning of time.

Remove loot and see how many people stick around.

You just have to give a different carrot on the end of the stick that equals progression of some kind.

[Skillslam]

M+ is fine. Specs like Ungabungakin having all the utility & damage in the world while other specs beg for invite scraps isn't

[Theangryone]

But that they enjoy the loot it gives.

In BfA you could reach Mythic level of gear by just doing a weekly +15. People were so used to easy gearing like that, that they cry about it this expansion.
People do not enjoy m+ for the content it brings, they solely enjoy to do it because of the loot it gives.

Only a small minority seems to enjoy m+ so much, the rest only cares about the gear.
So many people crying that the gear isn't a high enough ilvl and that it's not often dropped.

I thought that people enjoyed this content regardless? I thought m+ was fun? What happened?

Farming the same dungeons for two years is not content. Kudos to Blizz for convincing people it is, saves them a lot of time and money.

[Lahis]

In Legion and BFA I only did one M+ weekly for the chest.

Don't really wanna do more than that now, but kinda have to suffer atleast 4 runs. 10 is just too much.

[Ulfric Trumpcloak]

I like it as content to do on the side. Definitely not interested in doing 4-10 runs a week.

[Lolites]

In Legion and BFA I only did one M+ weekly for the chest.

Don't really wanna do more than that now, but kinda have to suffer atleast 4 runs. 10 is just too much.

eh, have to...
do one run and you will get the same result as in BFA/legion...

[mitre27]

I hate mythic+, timed content has and will never be something i enjoy, that said, because people are complaining that content is less rewarding does not mean that they don't find it fun, i have many guildies who love mythic+ but they're still not really happy about the loot cap.

[LordVargK]

And this is why you are not a game designer.

They're right though. If content is only played because of the reward, then that content is shit. If it is played even if it gives no rewards, then it is good. That's kinda how most games work; games that rely on internal rewards are pretty rare in general.

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This design works well for content you do once. But for content you replay a thousand times there needs to be some reward to do it. No matter how good gameplay of the first play through is, repeating it enough you need something else than gameplay as reward.

Tell that to any competitive multiplayer game. It's true for story driven games, but most games can be played without rewards at all.

[chiddie]

I hate mythic+, timed content has and will never be something i enjoy, that said, because people are complaining that content is less rewarding does not mean that they don't find it fun, i have many guildies who love mythic+ but they're still not really happy about the loot cap.

I love M+ because I love healing but unfortunately there is a HUGE difference based on doing it in pug or in a fixed group. 1-2 times on 10 I manage to do it with other 2-3 guildies (we just pick 1-2 random dps) and it feels sooo much better even the rare times we don’t time them.

[Yriel]

That's where the argument about the timer being false difficulty comes in. Without the timer, M+ would be beyond trivial. None of the mechanics are actually that difficult. And, if you have a fully experienced group who has the encounters memorized, the timer is trivial too.

Aren't raids then beyond trivial, not having a timer and all?

[T-34]

Aren't raids then beyond trivial, not having a timer and all?

Raids do have a timer. It is called enrage, which can be a soft enrage or a hard enrage. Even bosses in LFR enrage
If there weren't an enrage mechanic in raids then people would just stack tanks and healers and grind the bosses down.

[Araevin]

Raids do have a timer. It is called enrage, which can be a soft enrage or a hard enrage. Even bosses in LFR enrage
If there weren't an enrage mechanic in raids then people would just stack tanks and healers and grind the bosses down.

No raid boss (thankfully) lasts 30 minutes. Most raid groups will not rage if your group wipes after 3-4 minutes because something happens and someone needs to take a two minute break. Good luck doing the same with a M+ group.

[Voidwielder]

If it wasn't for M+ I would have quit in the first months of Legion.

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No raid boss (thankfully) lasts 30 minutes. Most raid groups will not rage if your group wipes after 3-4 minutes because something happens and someone needs to take a two minute break. Good luck doing the same with a M+ group.

This used to be offset by the amount of gear that dropped in M+ and it's repeatable nature.

With VP it's going to get a bit better and more in line with PvP/raid gearing progress.

[Kheldin]

But that they enjoy the loot it gives.

In BfA you could reach Mythic level of gear by just doing a weekly +15. People were so used to easy gearing like that, that they cry about it this expansion.
People do not enjoy m+ for the content it brings, they solely enjoy to do it because of the loot it gives.

Only a small minority seems to enjoy m+ so much, the rest only cares about the gear.
So many people crying that the gear isn't a high enough ilvl and that it's not often dropped.

I thought that people enjoyed this content regardless? I thought m+ was fun? What happened?

People enjoy loot and most of them only enjoy loot without asking themself which content they really enjoy as long as there is phat lewt in the end.

In the current f*ckd up system guaranteed good/BiS loot is playing rated PvP. Even if you want to push m+ or Mythic, you are better with PvP gear, which is guaranteed compared to weekly chest of useless items for doing 10 m+ each week.

[huth]

every goddamn sport competition, be it olympics or low village league with 10 people competeing does have some reward for wining... have you NEVER compete in anything if you dont realise that?!

Seems more like you haven't ever actually checked. Many amateur leagues don't have any significant prizes, especially not for the vast majority that doesn't place first. And if you primarily do it for the money, you're not an amateur to begin with. That's part of the definition.

[ClassicPeon]

As someone who did all +15's(plus more) in time on three different characters in bfa and havent done it yet(and honestly just burned out on it now) this is my experience:

In bfa everyone easily had the required dps needed to be able to survive a few mistakes and still do +15's in time.

Today with +15's in time is harder meaning the specs well suited for it have a MUCH easier time getting it done. That coupled with the fact that balance now is jsut dumpster level makes it unappealing to me.

I did them on time in bfa on a blood dk, vengeance dh and a rogue(different specs). This time i dont want to tank because the meta just fucking sucks. I really dont enjoy the kiting meta and i've yet to meet any other tank who does.

Balance Druids, firemages and MM hunters are so far ahead of the pack when it comes to damage(still the most important aspect of +15's) that i just cba. I literally just cba trying to learn everything about the dungeons and progress steadily through it when my grey locks balance druid friend can do almost 30k dps on the first boss in mists for his first free +15 key.

[Lahis]

No raid boss (thankfully) lasts 30 minutes..

I swear N'zoth took longer per pull than average M+ run.

[T-34]

No raid boss (thankfully) lasts 30 minutes. Most raid groups will not rage if your group wipes after 3-4 minutes because something happens and someone needs to take a two minute break. Good luck doing the same with a M+ group.

Well, anything can happen. But if know that you could get interrupted in an M+ run with 4 other people then you shouldn't join.