Faction imbalance a social issue? Requiring a social solution?

[username993720]

PvP isn't war. It's also not called World of War-between-Horde-and-Alliance-craft. Any war counts.

Battlegrounds, Arenas and Warfronts are.
If you don't know, the origins of Warcraft is Humans vs Orcs, a faction war.

allowing the heroes of Azeroth to work somewhat independently from factions as they battle yet another cosmic evil does not mean the Horde and Alliance have to have a tea party with cookies.

Nevermind the fact that the expansions are full of time after time where Horde and Alliance have worked together against a common foe.

I didn't say it would.
I just said keep it a gameplay feature, not a story one.
I'm all for cross-faction gameplay, game-wise.
Just not Lore-wise.

There are all sorts of things to be at war with instead of binary Red-Team / Blue Team factions.

In addition to the faction war, not instead of it.
Almost every expansion has added a new Battleground or an Arena, to emphasize the war is still going on.

[Garfurion]

Blizzard could make all new mythic raid-modes initially restricted to 1 faction, and always release 2 raids at the same time (1 mythic horde, 1 mythic alliance) which would force top guilds to have both a horde and alliance presence if they want to go for world first. Mythic raids could be opened up to the other faction after some time has passed.

Casual players wouldn't be affected since they would be able to do both raids from the start at normal.

[Kyriani]

There are all sorts of things to be at war with instead of binary Red-Team / Blue Team factions.

This is probably the simplest way to sum it up and I agree wholeheartedly. Even battlegrounds can be rebranded as battle exercises between the factions to build better relations while at the same time still fostering that sense of competition between the factions. That's kind of how FFXIV brands their pvp since there are really only 3 NPC military factions than the player can join but they are all allied with each other.

[username993720]

This is probably the simplest way to sum it up and I agree wholeheartedly. Even battlegrounds can be rebranded as battle exercises between the factions to build better relations while at the same time still fostering that sense of competition between the factions. That's kind of how FFXIV brands their pvp since there are really only 3 NPC military factions than the player can join but they are all allied with each other.

Really? a friendly competition?
Would the Battle for Azeroth trailer have been epic if it was a relation-building battle exercise?

[Kyriani]

Really? a friendly competition?
Would the Battle for Azeroth trailer have been epic if it was a relation-building battle exercise?

I think Battle For Azeroth's premise was a contrived turd. And I'd wouldn't use the term "friendly." I'd consider it more like when the U.S. and Russia compete against each other at the Olympics.

[huth]

Battlegrounds, Arenas and Warfronts are.
If you don't know, the origins of Warcraft is Humans vs Orcs, a faction war.

Warfronts aren't PvP. Battlegrounds are battles, not wars. Arenas are small scale gladiatorial combat and isn't even limited to HvA, any team can be pitted against any other team.

And Humans vs. Orcs was a racial war. In WarCraft 1, the Alliance didn't even exist.

[username993720]

I think Battle For Azeroth's premise was a contrived turd. And I'd wouldn't use the term "friendly." I'd consider it more like when the U.S. and Russia compete against each other at the Olympics.

They shake hands, afterwards.

Warfronts aren't PvP. Battlegrounds are battles, not wars. Arenas are small scale gladiatorial combat and isn't even limited to HvA, any team can be pitted against any other team.

And Humans vs. Orcs was a racial war. In WarCraft 1, the Alliance didn't even exist.

Warfront are about the faction war. The feature is PvE, against NPCs, but the story is about faction conflict.

Battlegrounds are, much like Warfronts, an attempt at domination between the two factions.

Arenas are, indeed, two-sided.

You are right. But, that was the whole premise for the factions (and the Warcraft franchise, as a whole). The conflict between the Humans and the Orcs led to factions being formed and to the faction wars.
Besides, the Orcs were part of the Horde during the First War, and they had Ogres among them.

[Advent]

I think this game should be long past war. For years, in order to keep this stupid conflict going they had to manufacture some of the most contrived, facepalm-inducing situations to get them to keep the fires lit. At some point, the game's narrative needs to move past constant war over trivial nonsense like race hate.

[Adam552]

Blizzard left it too late, this has been a problem for a decade and yet they never stepped in, they let old servers die by stopping FCMs, forcing most people to gather on large super-servers with established alliance/horde populations. It's a positive feedback loop of servers dying and causing players to migrate to bigger servers that has fed this faction imbalance.

[username993720]

I think this game should be long past war. For years, in order to keep this stupid conflict going they had to manufacture some of the most contrived, facepalm-inducing situations to get them to keep the fires lit. At some point, the game's narrative needs to move past constant war over trivial nonsense like race hate.

Speaking like a true progressive person.
Some of us still think it has a place in WoW.
Maybe not center stage, and not some of the cringe writing that has been going on. But, war is an essential part of the franchise.

[huth]

Warfront are about the faction war. The feature is PvE, against NPCs, but the story is about faction conflict.

Battlegrounds are, much like Warfronts, an attempt at domination between the two factions.

Arenas are, indeed, two-sided.

Except you responded to a comment about PvP specificially. Also, Battlegrounds and Warfronts are all about specific battles that are over now lorewise, and none of the BGs are Horde vs. Alliance, it's always specific subfactions fighting over a particular area.

They also aren't suited to explaining why any particular Horde member can't decide they would rather work together with particular Alliance members to achieve a common goal, as have the factions done in the lore numerous times on much larger scale.

- - - Updated - - -

Blizzard left it too late, this has been a problem for a decade and yet they never stepped in, they let old servers die by stopping FCMs, forcing most people to gather on large super-servers with established alliance/horde populations. It's a positive feedback loop of servers dying and causing players to migrate to bigger servers that has fed this faction imbalance.

No, Servers didn't even play into it. You'd have the same loop with more servers, and Alliance high-end would be even deader then.

[ravenmoon]

Alliance already have their own unique version of "Nether Elf" in the Void Elves.

I don't think void elf fans will be happy to see blood elves taking elements that are inherent within the Ren'dorei.

Don't think that is true at all, alliance fans would be delighted to have high elves, and have both void elf and high ellf versions... I mean to think that many versions of races are welcome and longed for in sub races, but for some reason the most loved and desired elven group would be rejected becasue they only want one type of high elf race is preposterous.

Alliance fans want many versions of humans, sub-races of night elves, high elves and sub races of them, sub races of dwarves, the more the merrier, they won't get tired of having more options and more people groups, it's part of what makes them interesting.

Sin'dorei on the Horde are perfect the way they are. They are not "High Elf in the way they live" because they've actually grown and part of their change comes from their use of Blood and Fire Magic, as well as introducing Blood Knights. These are core Blood Elf things, that Silvermoon has.

Perfect? They're too alliance orientated, it's part ofhow the race defines itself, this is not a bad or good thing, it's just how they are, the problem is when you slap that on the horde, and expect the horde to be unchanged with such a prominent race existing in that format. You either@:

1. Allow the image and dientity of the horde to now change (so the horde ends up being a mixtuer of allaiiance via these evles and original horde) OR
2. You eventuually alter the character of these blood elves to go further away from that hgih elf origin - now a great trauma, like the scourge invasion is often exactly the sort of traumatic event that can change a community, create a new sub-community etc. The original blood elf in TFT, seemed to be a lot different from the prisitne high elf - they didn't run with that, rather than make them anti-heroes, bad boy, but not evil guys, they made them all villains to give you raid bosses in TBC and made the blodo elves become more liek the high elves because they wanted to lure alliance players over who wanted to play high elves, not bad boy elves.

But whiles this was the way to get the population balanced back then, it has had other consequences. They'd be both blind and rather un-discerning not to actually notice what has happened. Whether they want to change it on the other hand is entirely up to them.

Alliance and Horde already have their "Death-like Elves" in Dark Rangers, Elven Death Knights and San'layn.
Fel Elves also exist through Warlocks and Demon Hunters.

So, your not giving the Horde anything - your just being selfish with "Waah waah, I want arcane elves on the alliance."

You're giving the horde a unique elven identity that isn't tied to or based on the alliance. When you give the horde a large high elf community and kaldorei civilization community that are modelled after what the alliance is basically all about, you make the horde feel more alliance than it should, not only that you provide a home for alliance loving people on the horde - making the incentive to go horde for those types much higher, it's worse (for that ) when you make the horde versions better, then you just heavily pre-dispose the horde to both type of players, and you wonder why the alliance fundamentally keeps bleeding numbers tot he horde...what created the social momentum in the first place

you can't fix the social issue via other means, if you still won't address what caused it to be in the first place, as it would just happen again.

the Dark ranger, san'layn type death knight and the fel elf are all identities and personalities of elven groups that are not based on the alliance at all.. your traditional human, high elf and dwarf (the alliance original core0 are not like any of these, this makes them perfect ot be the dominant pillar of the horde elves.

It's not to say that some of them won't be high elf like , it's only natural, but if the dominant character is based on the dark ranger/san'layn, fel elf anti hero - then this at least is different enough to the alliance, and would make a horde blood elf not feel so alliancey..

[secondgasp]

if the faction leaders can be aside their differences to accomplish goals threatening azeroth than so can we as players. i dont think we need to be welcomed into each others capital cities but it should be more like fresh dk questline picking a faction and having food tossed at you. two faction system that hard splits player bases is antiquated at best and given the lore writers have no problems getting around it when it benefits them then we as players shouldn't have to deal with it either. i would like to play with my friends on other faction

[Tanaria]

Don't think that is true at all, alliance fans would be delighted to have high elves, and have both void elf and high ellf versions... I mean to think that many versions of races are welcome and longed for in sub races, but for some reason the most loved and desired elven group would be rejected becasue they only want one type of high elf race is preposterous.

Alliance fans want many versions of humans, sub-races of night elves, high elves and sub races of them, sub races of dwarves, the more the merrier, they won't get tired of having more options and more people groups, it's part of what makes them interesting.


Perfect? They're too alliance orientated, it's part ofhow the race defines itself, this is not a bad or good thing, it's just how they are, the problem is when you slap that on the horde, and expect the horde to be unchanged with such a prominent race existing in that format. You either@:

1. Allow the image and dientity of the horde to now change (so the horde ends up being a mixtuer of allaiiance via these evles and original horde) OR
2. You eventuually alter the character of these blood elves to go further away from that hgih elf origin - now a great trauma, like the scourge invasion is often exactly the sort of traumatic event that can change a community, create a new sub-community etc. The original blood elf in TFT, seemed to be a lot different from the prisitne high elf - they didn't run with that, rather than make them anti-heroes, bad boy, but not evil guys, they made them all villains to give you raid bosses in TBC and made the blodo elves become more liek the high elves because they wanted to lure alliance players over who wanted to play high elves, not bad boy elves.

But whiles this was the way to get the population balanced back then, it has had other consequences. They'd be both blind and rather un-discerning not to actually notice what has happened. Whether they want to change it on the other hand is entirely up to them.



You're giving the horde a unique elven identity that isn't tied to or based on the alliance. When you give the horde a large high elf community and kaldorei civilization community that are modelled after what the alliance is basically all about, you make the horde feel more alliance than it should, not only that you provide a home for alliance loving people on the horde - making the incentive to go horde for those types much higher, it's worse (for that ) when you make the horde versions better, then you just heavily pre-dispose the horde to both type of players, and you wonder why the alliance fundamentally keeps bleeding numbers tot he horde...what created the social momentum in the first place

you can't fix the social issue via other means, if you still won't address what caused it to be in the first place, as it would just happen again.

the Dark ranger, san'layn type death knight and the fel elf are all identities and personalities of elven groups that are not based on the alliance at all.. your traditional human, high elf and dwarf (the alliance original core0 are not like any of these, this makes them perfect ot be the dominant pillar of the horde elves.

It's not to say that some of them won't be high elf like , it's only natural, but if the dominant character is based on the dark ranger/san'layn, fel elf anti hero - then this at least is different enough to the alliance, and would make a horde blood elf not feel so alliancey..

Ah right, so Blood Elf classes should only be Death Knights and Warlocks because that's all they are to you. No lore characters, just two classes, no city, nothing good...because little you only sees Blood Elves in their immediate post-scourge invasion period.
Blood Elves of Silvermoon are not and have never been a "bad boy." They are a race of prismatic survivors who were left for dead by the Alliance. It's all in your head about this nonsense of "bad boy, anti hero." Hell, we've got Blood Elf Demon Hunters for that. The whole race doesn't need to be pushed in that cliche movement, which doesn't give room for Blizzard writers to actually expand on the Horde races. Oh no, Horde can only be written in a certain way and that's it. They must not deviate...just stop.

If you want the truth, Void Elves are your "bad boy" blood elves. That's fine, I'm cool with that. It's not how Blood Elves are, so it's good.

And if "Fel elf" should be a core Horde thing, then Void Elf Warlocks and Night Elf Demon Hunters should be Horde. Alliance can't play as a Demon Hunter, any longer. You can play a Night Elf Demon Hunter or Void Elf Warlock, but because Horde Elves only have two aspects, then all these two race class combos must be Horde.

And unless you need a lore check, which you often do...Dark Rangers, in the main, are primarily undead high elf women. They never were present when the Elves were renamed to "Sin'dorei." So Dark Ranger is actually a lot closer to the High Elves than to the Blood Elves.

Again though, the Horde story and people's enjoyment of Horde assets won't be taken away just for 1 person who doesn't get to play an arcane elf on the faction he prefers.

EDIT: And I'd just like to point out, the first real addition of playable arcane elves, to WoW with a full arcane city and Magic everywhere was through the Horde Blood Elves. That was the beautiful distinction between the Alliance Night Elves and Horde Blood Elves. Druidic Alliance and Arcanist Horde.
I'm so against Nelf Mages because they ruined the distinction between Thalassian Horde elves and Darnassian Alliance Elves.

Arcane Elves are really a Horde based thing, so why should Horde lose that asset? It's a core Horde asset.

[ModeratorForLife]

Except you responded to a comment about PvP specificially. Also, Battlegrounds and Warfronts are all about specific battles that are over now lorewise, and none of the BGs are Horde vs. Alliance, it's always specific subfactions fighting over a particular area.

They also aren't suited to explaining why any particular Horde member can't decide they would rather work together with particular Alliance members to achieve a common goal, as have the factions done in the lore numerous times on much larger scale.

Racial conflicts are part of the faction conflict. One reason the Mag'hars joined the Horde is to kick some Draenei ass.

Cooperation out of necessity, always, naturally occurs when there's a threat of a common enemy. If Aliens were to invade Earth, you'd likely see a truce between the warring nations, for the time being.

[Cosmic Janitor]

Racial conflicts are part of the faction conflict. One reason the Mag'hars joined the Horde is to kick some Draenei ass.

Cooperation out of necessity, always, naturally occurs when there's a threat of a common enemy. If Aliens were to invade Earth, you'd likely see a truce between the warring nations, for the time being.

If aliens, gods and eldritch horros invade in a (bi-)yearly rhythm, no country on earth would find enough time to start a proper war with any other country though. They might have personal interests that they try to protect or achieve through the backdoor, but they wouldn't keep exhausing themsleves at every opportunity. WoW also ignores natural things like e/i-mmigration that naturally occurs, making the whole race thing even more unbelievable as there is no way to tell races like pandaren or most of the various high-elf descendents apart at first glance.

WoW could have it's perpetual faction war if the BBEGs didn't require them to team up in regular intervalls and instead were threads that can be beaten with one factions own power. If we no longer have ot fear total annihilation from the next eldritch horror then both factions can be written as chaotic stupid, like in Wankhammer, which is the basis for early WoW. But writing the story in way that we have teamed up at least 6 times in less than 10 years is just not going to work. It would have been appropriate to do that once for Legion, not every single time since Cataclysm.

[ModeratorForLife]

If aliens, gods and eldritch horros invade in a (bi-)yearly rhythm, no country on earth would find enough time to start a proper war with any other country though. They might have personal interests that they try to protect or achieve through the backdoor, but they wouldn't keep exhausing themsleves at every opportunity. WoW also ignores natural things like e/i-mmigration that naturally occurs, making the whole race thing even more unbelievable as there is no way to tell races like pandaren or most of the various high-elf descendents apart at first glance.

WoW could have it's perpetual faction war if the BBEGs didn't require them to team up in regular intervalls and instead were threads that can be beaten with one factions own power. If we no longer have ot fear total annihilation from the next eldritch horror then both factions can be written as chaotic stupid, like in Wankhammer, which is the basis for early WoW. But writing the story in way that we have teamed up at least 6 times in less than 10 years is just not going to work. It would have been appropriate to do that once for Legion, not every single time since Cataclysm.

First of all, in terms of timeline, expansions last several years and there's a time gap between each of them.
secondly, Blizzard has to keep throwing threats at us, otherwise players wouldn't subscribe.
And, believe me, humans would find a reason to fight against each another, even during a global crisis. It's in our nature, as it is in any animal.

[huth]

First of all, in terms of timeline, expansions last several years and there's a time gap between each of them.

Canonically, it's only been about 10 years in-story since WoW started. So no, they don't. They actually last longer in RL than they do in the story.

[HateTrain]

Ah right, so Blood Elf classes should only be Death Knights and Warlocks because that's all they are to you. No lore characters, just two classes, no city, nothing good...because little you only sees Blood Elves in their immediate post-scourge invasion period.
Blood Elves of Silvermoon are not and have never been a "bad boy." They are a race of prismatic survivors who were left for dead by the Alliance. It's all in your head about this nonsense of "bad boy, anti hero." Hell, we've got Blood Elf Demon Hunters for that. The whole race doesn't need to be pushed in that cliche movement, which doesn't give room for Blizzard writers to actually expand on the Horde races. Oh no, Horde can only be written in a certain way and that's it. They must not deviate...just stop.

If you want the truth, Void Elves are your "bad boy" blood elves. That's fine, I'm cool with that. It's not how Blood Elves are, so it's good.

And if "Fel elf" should be a core Horde thing, then Void Elf Warlocks and Night Elf Demon Hunters should be Horde. Alliance can't play as a Demon Hunter, any longer. You can play a Night Elf Demon Hunter or Void Elf Warlock, but because Horde Elves only have two aspects, then all these two race class combos must be Horde.

And unless you need a lore check, which you often do...Dark Rangers, in the main, are primarily undead high elf women. They never were present when the Elves were renamed to "Sin'dorei." So Dark Ranger is actually a lot closer to the High Elves than to the Blood Elves.

Again though, the Horde story and people's enjoyment of Horde assets won't be taken away just for 1 person who doesn't get to play an arcane elf on the faction he prefers.

EDIT: And I'd just like to point out, the first real addition of playable arcane elves, to WoW with a full arcane city and Magic everywhere was through the Horde Blood Elves. That was the beautiful distinction between the Alliance Night Elves and Horde Blood Elves. Druidic Alliance and Arcanist Horde.
I'm so against Nelf Mages because they ruined the distinction between Thalassian Horde elves and Darnassian Alliance Elves.

Arcane Elves are really a Horde based thing, so why should Horde lose that asset? It's a core Horde asset.

You're screaming at a brick wall man. Doesn't matter how much logic and truth you use, it's still a brick wall.

[Tanaria]

You're screaming at a brick wall man. Doesn't matter how much logic and truth you use, it's still a brick wall.

I know.

If you ask me, we talk about what's "core" for each faction and in terms of the Elves, the Arcane Elves (Blood Elves) were the first playable iteration of Arcane Elves in WoW and we had that very clear distinction between what Night Elves and Blood Elves stood for. Now though, with Nelf Mages - that is when it truly became muddled, because Blizzard tried to do something with them and it just didn't work.