[Contextualized Study] Job discrimination towards men

[kasuke06]

Wait, so if women are discriminated against, it's men's fault and if men are discriminated against it's also men's fault? Man why is literally everything only one gender's fault while the other has no fault in anything it has ever or will ever do?

[s_bushido]

Wait, so if women are discriminated against, it's men's fault and if men are discriminated against it's also men's fault?

If you want to be childishly simplistic about it, yes. Something something "great power" something something "responsibility."

But no, men aren't the only people who shaped societal norms that gave rise to stuff like this. But if you cared in the slightest about men being turned away from those few fields that women were funneled into when they weren't content (or weren't financially able) to stay home barefoot and pregnant, you might have...you know...become a feminist. Blue hair and piercings optional.

[Elegiac]

Wait, so if women are discriminated against, it's men's fault and if men are discriminated against it's also men's fault? Man why is literally everything only one gender's fault while the other has no fault in anything it has ever or will ever do?

It's almost like patriarchy is some sort of system of enforcing conformity and compliance rather than equity and self-expression.

That's what is meant when terms like 'toxic masculinity' get said; it's not that masculinity is toxic, it's that a toxic category of behaviors and worldviews are classed as 'the ideal of masculinity'. Nothing about Fred Rogers is feminine, to give an example of non-toxic masculinity.

I as a man need feminism because it helps me and every other man deconstruct a system that boxes us into very narrow and often harmful set of roles that result in us being by default being seen as less able caregivers or inherently more dangerous and abusive and rewards those of us with the worst personalities with clout and prestige.

[minteK917]

Wait, so if women are discriminated against, it's men's fault and if men are discriminated against it's also men's fault? Man why is literally everything only one gender's fault while the other has no fault in anything it has ever or will ever do?

No, you are misunderstanding Patriarchy, a lot of people are. It doesent mean men do things. Women uphold it as much as men do. Patriarchy is not an action someone take its en entire lens of social construction, its when someone see a man crying and think its clearly a weakness or unmanly. Its when a woman rolls her eyes at a man wanting to be a kindergarten teacher. Its when people think a man should just work his ass off to death and not complain to be a "bread earner". Its when a men decide he rather shoot himself because he thinks hes too short to be worth anything. Its when men commit the same crime as a women, but get 60% larger sentences in the exact same contitions.

Men suffer under Patriarchy as much as women. In fact right now in 2021, id say men have the overall worse of it because the roles forced upon them is some weird ass mismatch most cant handle while women gotten some of it out of their system. Which explain stuff like overwhelming men rate of suicide and radicalization with almost zero society support. Men are ultra insecure, they have even more enforced labels then women do. Non idiot feminist been warning you about this for decades.

Worse part for us is that its not even based on science. Human pre civilization did not function with strange ideas like nuclear family and monogamy. It takes an entire village to educate children, 2 parents means jack shit, the more mentors you had the better. There is no Alpha, Beta or all those weird 16-17TH century inventions people outside of Academia still cling to.

[Easo]

One day positions will be filled according to merits rather than what one has between the legs. Will take a couple of decades.

Nah, it will take way, way more than couple of decades, try at least century in some parts of the world. But I believe we are generally are on the way to it.

[PACOX]

Wait, so if women are discriminated against, it's men's fault and if men are discriminated against it's also men's fault? Man why is literally everything only one gender's fault while the other has no fault in anything it has ever or will ever do?

Ugh...


Women can and do contribute to a society becoming patriarchal. It's been stated in a number of posts already.

[Huntingbear_grimbatol]

There are discrimination, or favoritism, in just about every single line of work and we know that it happens.
It's sexism, racism/xenophobia, stereotypes and so many other things.

Studies in Norway shows that Arabic and African sounding names has (on average) a 20% less chance to be called into job interviews regardless of line of work, studies on Amazon and Google tech applications show that there's over a 40% increased chance to get called into a job interview if you have a south east Asian name (Amazon and Google did change their job application filter software/algorithm after the study was published).

This is why social studies are good, because it makes us aware of them. Will it lead to changes? probably, slowly over time. But it's always going to offend the conservatives, so that's a win all day long.

[PACOX]

There are discrimination, or favoritism, in just about every single line of work and we know that it happens.
It's sexism, racism/xenophobia, stereotypes and so many other things.

Studies in Norway shows that Arabic and African sounding names has (on average) a 20% less chance to be called into job interviews regardless of line of work, studies on Amazon and Google tech applications show that there's over a 40% increased chance to get called into a job interview if you have a south east Asian name (Amazon and Google did change their job application filter software/algorithm after the study was published).

This is why social studies are good, because it makes us aware of them. Will it lead to changes? probably, slowly over time. But it's always going to offend the conservatives, so that's a win all day long.

Facts.

You need to be aware of a problem before it can be addressed. Also sometimes people may not even know they are part of a problem...before it addressed.

[Fencers]

Huh, strange. It's almost as if you dismiss fields like this as "women's work" for decades, you might end up building some sort of...what's the word...systemic bias.

Nah, couldn't possibly be the case.

Get out of here rational conclusions!

[Doctor Amadeus]

Get out of here rational conclusions!

You know I was reading the OP with an open mind because obviously discrimination happens no matter who you are. The question this posses to me is if this is a prejudice based situation created by the exact forces that typically condemn them meaning those being discriminator against are being discriminated against by their own group.

It ultimately comes down to a power dynamic.

Like for example male nurses, or househusbands. I am not too sure that I have ever come across any group of women with power who purposely excluded MEN from those traditional roles.

Kind of makes me think of pornography a little bit too, like OnlyFans vs say Pornhub or something like that. I don't want to lean into forbidden topics but if the conversation is just about jobs and discrimination, I think it would be hard not to siphon some of that forbidden topic into the conversation.

Short of that, I am going to say that I don't think it comes down to rationale as much as it does perspective. Meaning WHO GAINS by the absents of male Kindergarten Teachers.

I think the only rational prerequisite is that who ever does that job is physiologically fit and been vetted to do so.

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Facts.

You need to be aware of a problem before it can be addressed. Also sometimes people may not even know they are part of a problem...before it addressed.

That's true and not true, being aware of the problem and then working to change it leads one to the dark side of the fucking force and being called a SJW or engaging in cancel culture if you reject bad practices or traditions.

[Theodarzna]

The mistake was assuming there is a desire for equality.

[Draco-Onis]

One day positions will be filled according to merits rather than what one has between the legs. Will take a couple of decades.

just wait until you hear about this thing called nepotism

[Fencers]

It ultimately comes down to a power dynamic.

Like for example male nurses, or househusbands. I am not too sure that I have ever come across any group of women with power who purposely excluded MEN from those traditional roles.

It is about the power dynamic. However, you are thinking of this in a manner that supposes an inversion or flipped state as the opposite cause. It is not. It is often the same Patricarical state that can lead to cultural trends and traditions that discriminate or exclude equally all persons that do not fit those with dominant power in a culture or society. In this case, what is commonly thought of as a "Straight White Male" at the top of the power pyramid. So to speak.

This is where the notion of all persons ought to be "Feminists" had come from at one point of popular thought. In so far, that one (without respect to gender) stands a chance to be equally excluded or discriminated against if/when they do not meet the criteria of those persons with power. This is another subject and more expansive than this topic allows really- but nonetheless, discrimination of anyone affect everyone is the general gist.

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The mistake was assuming there is a desire for equality.

There is some truth to this in a practical sense. And it's not like we, societies in general, would all equally value the same labor. Yet alone persons doing that labor.

[Mayhem]

This is a prime example of bad reading of data 3-5% in most studies is the margin of error so the study is concluding there is virtually no discrimination towards men even including female driven roles.

Considering the study is as a whole about a bunch of different jobs, the 5 percentage points might stem from severe differences between occupations.

[Dezerte]

Considering the study is as a whole about a bunch of different jobs, the 5 percentage points might stem from severe differences between occupations.

Yeah, the 5% was the overall figure. Looking closer at the data in the original academic text you'll find many professions where the level of discrimination can be up to 27 (childcare) - particularly in the female-dominated professions.

[tehealadin]

I work in what is often labelled a woman's job (I fucking hate the term), teaching, there certainly can be some awkward comments from some people. In my experience, and this is only anecdotal, I know it cannot be generalised, is men and women tend to be about equal when it comes to snide comments about not doing a man's job. Sadly I fear this will just turn into a vindictive, retributive (and revealing) bitchfest, but I just want to put that out there that the whole man's work v woman's work isn't something only men buy into. I also don't think taking glee in this, or viewing it as a stick is helpful to anyone.

I am not so bad as I work in secondary education (11-18), however the further down the educational scale, such as primary (4-12) and especially nursery (3-4) education, I'd feel less ok for the former, and fucking no chance for the latter. I've had to go visit primary schools before, and almost every time I get looked at like a serial killer when I walk in the building (different if going back and they know me). I once had to work a whole day in a primary school. It was an interesting experience as I was there the whole day (working with different classes) and not just for a part. I have to say- overall I loved it. I was a thing of curio to the kids as I was the first male teacher they ever had (they called me miss). Some of the older teachers (>50) were great with me, however the younger ones (I am not sure what significance age had) clearly weren't impressed that I was there and went out of their way to make me feel unwelcome. I can't read their minds, so I don't know what motivated this for sure, but I can't help but wonder. I remember visiting a school with some colleagues, me and a female one went in together, our first time here (as far as I could tell), I got asked to show ID, she didn't (she signed in before me too). Again, I can't read minds, but I also can't help but wonder. The amount of times at school receptions where the receptionist has spoken to/looked at me like a bank clerk speaking with an armed robber...I don't know, maybe it is my appearance.

To go slightly off tangent, I remember seeing a promotional video to try and get men to consider teaching in the lower levels of education, especially with nursery. The biggest barrier was you were seen as a threat. What, a man, wanting to work with kids? Fucking beast. The guy doing it, a head of a nursery said it gets easier if you are married and have kids, you get seen of less of a threat. This is more of a wider societal thing as opposed to simple work based discrimination, and to some extent I can understand where it comes from, but at the same time I can't help but despair. If you are a man and want to work in certain sectors you are automatically considered by many to be a danger. And there have been too many scumbag men throughout the years who have earned this smear for us all, it pains me but I simply cannot deny it, there are people who simply do not like men and cunts like that give them all the ammunition they need, in addition to the harm that their cunty behaviour caused first hand. To the best of my knowledge, most people who beast kids are men, I don't say that as a way to beat men down, but simply as a statement of fact. However it is also true that it isn't typical male behaviour, most men do not do this and never would. I think there is a bit of a blind spot there as this is one of the few areas where it seems more acceptable (be it from a left or right position) to take the actions of a small minority and generalise it to half the population, and not to try and pick any fights but I think there are some bad actors who revel in this.

In all of the wrongs and wasted potential in deciding field X is for women and field Y is for men (think of all of the discoveries that were delayed or never made because half the best minds weren't allowed to think about it), I do think this is one of the most tragic ones. I know I will get a lot of hate for this on here for saying it, but I think it is a tragedy that men are often automatically seen as threats to children (again I get where this comes from, but again to my previous point, it isn't typical male behaviour), and this is one factor (among many) as to why fewer work in these sectors. I don't know how well this will go down, but I do think you need a mixture of men and women involved in the development of children. In my (limited) experience, I find boys and girls often (not all, or always) react differently (though not wildly) to men and women. The reasons for this I won't speculate on as I simply do not know, however I do believe there are differences.

Just to back this point up a little more, I once attended a lecture by a woman who ran the violence reduction unit at the (then) largest police force in my country. Just before this time, my country and the city where I was working at the time was the murder capital of western Europe and had a long standing problem with boys and young men stabbing each other to death. The unit, informed by research, and basing an approach on a model used in a US city (can't remember which one), focused mainly on boys as it was overwhelmingly (though not completely exclusively) them who were carrying out the acts of violence. She said the number one thing that needs to be done is to give them a positive male role model, as pretty much in all cases (or close to it) this was lacking. That isn't to say that women can't be role models (some of the biggest inspirations for me growing up were women), but when it comes to boys, an absence of a male one can be very bad. And many of these boys go through early stages of school without ever having a male teacher and that potential positive male figure.

There are many factors involved as to why so many kids grow up without positive male influences in their lives, but this whole idea of childcare/education is a woman's job simply doesn't help. I do believe that this is an area of representation that really matters, and for a variety of factors is ignored and dismissed. As I said, there are many reasons for this, however I do feel discrimination/a fear of it (real and imagined), as well as perception, play some role in it. And I think this is why gender roles can't simply be dismissed as feminazi man hating bullshit as some will dismiss it as. It is a blunt weapon that causes harm and can't be ignored. I have only seen this kind of thing expressed in a few posts here (thankfully), but it is also why using it as a stick and being retributive doesn't help.

[Huntingbear_grimbatol]

-snip-

Yeah I have the same experiences as a man working in education, even in super modern and progressive Norway.
I've worked with kids anywhere between 2 and 16 years old and I always got strange looks or comments when I said what I do for a living, most kindergartens and schools in Norway specifically say in their job listings that "we recommend men to apply" because it's so difficult to get a balanced workplace- which is important for education places for many reasons, as you mentioned.
It got so bad in my experiences that I started studying Pedagogy so I can work higher up in the chain as a planner/manager, even though it means I interact less with the young people I actually think I could help. At least I can do important work still, hopefully less "drama" about it.

[Thereturn]

Were headed towards a situation where normal people are the exception when it comes to hireing. Soon youll have to be a pansexual hermaphrodite that Identifies as a an easy bake oven to get hired anywhere.

Its anoying as fuck, in my company as well. They are actively pushing women into management positions and creating new bullshit management positions just to up the percentage. Over 10 new managers were instated the past year (normal is like 2) and all were women. Despite the company having 80% male employees. They actively advertise internal job openings for management positions with women wanted.

Funny thing is you never hear women complaining about being underrepresented in waste management, army, trucking and other hard labour jobs. Lets have quota’s there.

[s_bushido]

Were headed towards a situation where normal people are the exception when it comes to hireing. Soon youll have to be a pansexual hermaphrodite that Identifies as a an easy bake oven to get hired anywhere..

2015 called. It wants its horseshit back.

Maybe the "normal" people can just fuck off and build a time machine to go back to the better days when everyone but "normal" people knew their place.

[Fencers]

Were headed towards a situation where normal people are the exception when it comes to hireing. Soon youll have to be a pansexual hermaphrodite that Identifies as an easy bake oven to get hired anywhere.

Riiiight. Because that exaggeration really illustrates an effective comparison between people historically not represented or allowed participation. What a bunch of baloney.

Its anoying as fuck, in my company as well. They are actively pushing women into management positions and creating new bullshit management positions just to up the percentage. Over 10 new managers were instated the past year (normal is like 2) and all were women. Despite the company having 80% male employees. They actively advertise internal job openings for management positions with women wanted.

So what? If a company was doing something that adversely affected their goals and profitability that would be their problem. Are all 10 of the new managers unsuited? What if they are not? Then it would seem a very good idea to have 10 new managers who represent female participants if the workforce is "80% male".

If they are all poor managers, which seems unlikely given that there are 10 of them supposedly, then the company is at fault for their poor vetting during hiring and promotion. Their gender would be irrelevant in either case EXCEPT to bring more diversity to an 80% male workforce.

Funny thing is you never hear women complaining about being underrepresented in waste management, army, trucking and other hard labour jobs. Lets have quota’s there.

We don't hear about those fields of labor much at all because those jobs, though essential, are also socially marginalized. Which creates a misrepresentation of laborers and social participants. Just as... nursing or child care by compairison.