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  1. #501
    Quote Originally Posted by VinceVega View Post
    With that argument why move in any way anywhere? Just make portals/abilities/to everything. Or better yet. Make everything instanced. Every quest everything. Just stay in the main city and instaqueue for quests.
    There will never be a game where everyone likes everything. Seriously. It is an open world game. Devaluing the open world makes the whole world completly useless when you can skip it immediatly
    flying doesnt skip it though... it just makes travel time shorter and makes it so you dont get annoyed by mobs you would just run past anyways...

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by VinceVega View Post
    Irony much? "nobody" is a strong world and exactly what i ment in my first post.

    The content has value when people like it. The start of the expansion is my favourite time. Seeing players meeting people in the open world. All of that is gone the second flying is available. And yes i too like flying and at a certain point is should always be introduced.

    With your and every other explanation you could just kick the open world to the curb int he first place. Because there is no use for it and traveling 2 minutes longer is such a inconviniece for you.

    Long story short: MANY people like it that way and blizzard likes it even too. It will never change unless they make a expansion with flying islands and stuff. Which people will hate for antoher wierd reason like "flying takes too long give me instaport"!!!!!!

    If you do not like quests AND open world... i am sorry but maybe play something like diàblo or path of exile?
    flying doesnt stop people from interacting in the world... i interacted with plenty in bc when flying was introduced...

    The issue is that there are a ton of anti social people who apparently cant make friends to play with and not only want to impose their playstyle on other but also want to force others to interact with them....

    With that mentality I can see why players would avoid you...

  2. #502
    Quote Originally Posted by Dhrizzle View Post
    Also I'd hardly think "don't make a path to this zone" constitutes a great design feat, or putting things on a floating space fortress too high to jump to.
    And yet decades of Metroidvania games have successfully used the game mechanic of "you can't reach this spot until you gain X ability".

    That's honestly how Blizzard should be using flight. Not as a sauce that gets dumped on everything. Not as a "skip all content after it doesn't matter". Make parts of the game have portals that you unlock. Other parts have flying be used as a tool. Throw in those grapple gun areas from stormheim, or something else. Some areas should be indoors. Others should have gliding, or flying.

    There is NOTHING wrong with mixing things up.

    Again, what it all comes back to is that blizzard has a very shallow formula that they can't seem to be bothered to innovate on. Grounded zones filled with nonsensical maze-like terrain, and packed so full of dazing trash mobs that you can't move more than a foot before aggroing anything.

    Fine. That works sometimes. But not ALL the time. Variety is what's needed here. Not formulaic, engagement-padding bullshit 24/7 365.

    It's just sad that Blizzard is so god damned afraid of deviating from the formula, and that so many players have bought into the idea that nothing else is even possible.

  3. #503
    Quote Originally Posted by Wilfire View Post
    Once again flying will only be unlocked for already outdated content while being unavailable in the Maw and Korthia. This is Argus all over again. Next expansion MUST have flying in from the START and it must be usable EVERYWHERE.
    Um, this is how it always is my man. Current content is always locked from flying since I'd say MoP. You had to unlock it later on. Or it was never available period. Look at Argus (never available) or Broken Shore (needed rep) then BFA gave Nazjatar (unlocked later) and then Nzoth actually implemented into old content (a rare time flying allowed). Go back to WoD, you had Tanaan (needed rep), MoP had Isle of Thunder and Timeless Isle (both were never available) ...

    My point is, it's gone on for every expansion for quite some time. This is NOTHING NEW, and you aren't getting "tricked" ..it's just how it's always been.

    CURRENT CONTENT DOES NOT ALLOW FLYING, it's the middle ground compromise for the no flying and flying crowd. Always been that way, and it's worked just fine.
    Last edited by meroko; 2021-03-01 at 01:43 AM.

  4. #504
    Quote Originally Posted by SirCowdog View Post
    And yet decades of Metroidvania games have successfully used the game mechanic of "you can't reach this spot until you gain X ability".

    That's honestly how Blizzard should be using flight. Not as a sauce that gets dumped on everything. Not as a "skip all content after it doesn't matter". Make parts of the game have portals that you unlock. Other parts have flying be used as a tool. Throw in those grapple gun areas from stormheim, or something else. Some areas should be indoors. Others should have gliding, or flying.

    There is NOTHING wrong with mixing things up.

    Again, what it all comes back to is that blizzard has a very shallow formula that they can't seem to be bothered to innovate on. Grounded zones filled with nonsensical maze-like terrain, and packed so full of dazing trash mobs that you can't move more than a foot before aggroing anything.

    Fine. That works sometimes. But not ALL the time. Variety is what's needed here. Not formulaic, engagement-padding bullshit 24/7 365.

    It's just sad that Blizzard is so god damned afraid of deviating from the formula, and that so many players have bought into the idea that nothing else is even possible.
    thats a good idea. I'd like to see more stuff like that. Too bad the game is just a cash cow being milked and fun isnt allowed =\

  5. #505
    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    Actually in reality their is no compromise.
    What you need to do, what you can do, what you should do and what would be a good idea don't always overlap, and they're never completely identical. Any course of action is by necessity a compromise.
    This is magnified by the fact that they have to deal with a heterogenous playerbase that has vastly different preferences and interests. They have to compromise between the various groups, as often there are mutually exclusive demands.

    Game design, and business in general, is always made of compromises because you have no other option.

    Also, a negotiation doesn't have to consist of people sitting around a table. What you describe is also a form of negotiation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    This developers knows best attitude is extremely patronizing and I expect from hazikostas et al but its bizarre from the player base.
    It is also irrelevant to my post. What is relevant, however, is that the devs are beholden to a different set of needs and limitations than you as a player. Most players only care about a small part of the game. The devs have to consider how every change impacts the entire game, not just the parts that you like.

    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    What is actually good for the game is nebulous at best but is also evidently not in line with what will actually retain players. Somehow cost cutting is now the means by which the game will generate revenue as opposed to maintaining or growing a subscriber base. Maybe they have data that suggests they just can't keep people anymore so why bother. What an awful environment that must be to work in.
    Given that they massively increased the number of devs working on WoW in the last decade, cost cutting is flat-out lying about what they're doing. Personnel cost is usually one of the biggest money drains of a company, and devs are quite a bit more expensive than some lowly Customer Support workers.

  6. #506
    Quote Originally Posted by Lei View Post
    You can fly in wintergrasp. just not when the battle is on.
    Added in 3.2:
    Flying over Dalaran and Wintergrasp is now possible so long as players keep a healthy distance above the ground.

    WotLK launched with WG being 100% no fly all the time.

  7. #507
    Quote Originally Posted by Dhrizzle View Post
    WoD had content, there were about a dozen Apexis zones put in purely for end-game content and they had corresponding invasion, but they weren't "artificially stretched" by a decent reward system so there was no point in playing them. If they'd put incentives similar to the daily quests and gear grind in 6.2 it could have been the best open world end-game content ever, certainly I enjoyed actually doing the content more than the World Quests + Emissary/Covenant thing we've had in the following few expansions.

    As for why you have 6.2 as your most played, I really have no idea. It had an extended period of no flying (beyond just getting the achievement there was a hard lock until a sub-patch,) there was huge competition for mobs and things to click, you had to go hunting for rares/treasures that may not be spawned, a group of daily quests enforced their pacing as to how long you should play each day and it was all "artificially stretched" by a grind to get loot and then upgrade it. I know why I enjoyed it so much because that's the kind of stuff I'm into but from your earlier posts it should be the absolute devil for you.
    Baleful gear, that was first time in Wow's history, when you had alternative progression outside of dungeons, raid and PVP, was good enough incentive. Covenant gear is analog now, but it's treated as catch-up gear, not progression gear. Progression is cosmetic only. And it's too slow to be worth doing. Yeah, I started playing in something like 6.2b, when flying was really enabled. "Fel appexis" weren't that mandatory. Tanaan content was very flexible. Only two main quests were mandatory. Everything else was simply speeding your progression up. You could pick, what you wanted to do. You could get extra apexis from just completing objectives. Yeah, treasures were hard to find, but rares were relatively easy to find. Yeah, without flying it would be hard, but with flying it was perfectly ok. I had my favorite route, I was flying along. It was enough to kill 4-6 rares every day. Overall pace was good. About hour of guaranteed content every day. You also to log in two times per day to manage your Garrisons. All other time could be spend on leveling alt. With flying. Perfect xpack.

    Again. 6.2 content was very flexible. Overall maximum appexis income was about 15K/day, that was 3/4 of needed to upgrade one item. That was about 17-18 days to fully complete Baleful set. But it wasn't that big deal, if you didn't do whole content every day. Overall it was mandatory to only complete one main quest. It allowed you to pick one objective of 2, so you could pick better one, especially when one of them was group one. I've never picked group one for example, despite of good reward. Second daily quest required you to complete another two objectives. Again, you could pick them. Overall it was enough. I don't remember exact numbers, but it was giving you around 7k, that resulted in 3 days per item, i.e. about 40 days total. Third "fel appexis" daily quest was optional and was purely about rep. But it was giving good reward. Yeah, searching for treasures was bad thing. I couldn't rely on it. But rares were perfectly ok. They weren't "rare elites" as they're now. I.e. most of them were doable solo. Some of them were harder, but still doable with some tactic and in better Baleful gear. There were many rares there and they were spawning very often. Some of them were spawnable. This 3rd daily was giving you around 10k appexis and it was perfectly enough to get item once it 2 days, i.e. around 26 days total. And I don't even talk about passive appexis income from killing mobs. Each objective granted extra appexis for completing it, so completing them all was good idea, if you had enough time, but nothing bad was happening, if you were skipping some of them. Plus bonuses for completing story campaign.

    Locations were different to suit different playstyles (don't remember exact location names):
    1) Port - big, easy, fast, especially with cannons and bombs, good for weak gear.
    2) Forge - big, easy, but slow without blowing cannons and killing orcs on wolfs, good for weak gear.
    3) Orc village - medium size, easy, spheres as main target, many rares, good for weak gear.
    4) Bird village - medium size, medium difficulty, had two parts, non-elite and elite.
    5) Front - medium size, hard, intended for groups, but still doable solo, better to do it in better gear.
    6) Draenai village - small, hard, better to do it last, if you still want to get extra appexis.
    7) Throne - group location, was never doing it.

    And all of it with flying. Of course without flying it would be much worse. For example to get from east part to west you would need to go through that cave. And I was usually flying over that mountain a little bit higher on a map, because there was rare there, that was spawning very often. Many rares were gated behind crowds of mobs. So, with flying you could just kill needed rares. Otherwise other players would most likely kill them before you could get there. You didn't need that flight masters. You didn't need to always start doing your business from flight master. You didn't need to always return back to flight master in order to get out from there. You could simply fly to next location at any moment.

    So, here is real reason, why flying is removed - Blizzard want to limit you, put you on rails, put you into corridor. Make content, that is more like instanced dungeon, than open world location, where everything is scripted and player can play certain way only and trying to do something else = cheating. I call it claustrophobic design. This kills whole idea of open world, because OPEN means FREEDOM of movement.

    About overcrowding. You should remember, that THERE WAS NO CRZ in current locations back then. And it was my voluntary choice to play on less crowded realms. Yeah, back then we had choice to do it. Now we don't. If Blizzard want to put 100500 players into that extremely slow Korina's stick WQ, you can do nothing about it. If Blizzard decide to put 100500 other faction's players into that catapult WQ - you can do nothing about it.

    And what about now? Anima income is 4-5 times slower, than appexis income back then. Plus gifts are also required. This results in getting one item may be once a week with several months of total time per character. Plus CRZ, that makes some WQs unplayable due to overcrowding. Plus lack of flying, that makes content much slower. Plus bad travel design, i.e. being required to waste around 5-10 minutes just to get to your WQ through Oribos. Plus boring leveling. Plus lack of fun features, such as Garrisons. Overall all it results in much worse rewards for much bigger effort. All this is bad. Extremely bad. This isn't worth playing, sorry.
    Last edited by WowIsDead64; 2021-03-01 at 06:38 AM.

    I don't care about Wow 11.0, if it's not solo-MMO. No half-measures - just perfect xpack.

  8. #508
    Quote Originally Posted by rrayy View Post
    I am saying that you are counted as an MAU whether you log on once a month or every day. So, gating flying has no real effect on it thus not a reason they are gating flying.
    If flying and other content are made available or more readily available sooner and content is consumed more quickly there will be less incentive for people to log on over a longer period of time, you get the drift? This is why they introduced shady stuff like the loot reduction BS.
    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    Biden is a creepy old dude, I will not be voting for the guy.
    ^ This is from a self-proclaimed Trump-hater who goes round vote-policing, berating and insulting other users for expressing their doubts and reservations about Joe Biden. He also urges others to end relationships and friendships just to "vote Trump out". https://ibb.co/2jRnZGC He can't seem to walk the talk himself.

  9. #509
    Quote Originally Posted by meroko View Post
    CURRENT CONTENT DOES NOT ALLOW FLYING, it's the middle ground compromise for the no flying and flying crowd. Always been that way, and it's worked just fine.
    Case in point:

    Yet another person mindlessly repeating the "it's a compromise" or "it's a middle ground".

    No....Meroko. It's NOT a compromise. It's definitely not a middle ground.

  10. #510
    Quote Originally Posted by SirCowdog View Post
    Case in point:

    Yet another person mindlessly repeating the "it's a compromise" or "it's a middle ground".

    No....Meroko. It's NOT a compromise. It's definitely not a middle ground.
    You repeating that it isn't one doesn't change that it is. Compromise doesn't mean "solution that i prefer" but an intermediate between multiple mutually exclusive positions. It's also by definition a middle ground, since it is somewhere in-between those positions.

    The most extreme positions in this discussion are "flying always everywhere" and "no flying at all", so "flying sometimes" is definitely a compromise.

  11. #511
    Quote Originally Posted by huth View Post
    You repeating that it isn't one doesn't change that it is. Compromise doesn't mean "solution that i prefer" but an intermediate between multiple mutually exclusive positions. It's also by definition a middle ground, since it is somewhere in-between those positions.

    The most extreme positions in this discussion are "flying always everywhere" and "no flying at all", so "flying sometimes" is definitely a compromise.
    Compromise - is when both sides equally sacrifice something. When some players can always play current content, as they want, while others can never do it - then it's not compromise.

    I don't care about Wow 11.0, if it's not solo-MMO. No half-measures - just perfect xpack.

  12. #512
    Quote Originally Posted by WowIsDead64 View Post
    Compromise - is when both sides equally sacrifice something. When some players can always play current content, as they want, while others can never do it - then it's not compromise.
    Exactly!

    Think about it @huth. Blizzard is still designing content that ignores that flight exists. Players must still consume virtually all the content in order to unlock it(slightly different modes in SL). Flight can only be used on content which is not relevant. Content which is released later is flight-locked.

    What is Blizzard actually giving up here? Effectively, nothing of importance.
    What are players who enjoy flight actually getting? Effectively, nothing of importance.

    To even call this a compromise or middle ground tell me that you're not being objective.

  13. #513
    Quote Originally Posted by SirCowdog View Post
    Exactly!

    Think about it @huth. Blizzard is still designing content that ignores that flight exists. Players must still consume virtually all the content in order to unlock it(slightly different modes in SL). Flight can only be used on content which is not relevant. Content which is released later is flight-locked.

    What is Blizzard actually giving up here? Effectively, nothing of importance.
    What are players who enjoy flight actually getting? Effectively, nothing of importance.

    To even call this a compromise or middle ground tell me that you're not being objective.
    We are getting flying with 9.1 and NO PATHFINDER, and just as you suggested, the new content, Korthia, will still be a no flying zone. Congrats. You won the argument. Now we can finally put this poor horse powder into an air tight container and bury the remains of this over beaten creature.
    “Be the change you want to see in the world.” ~ Mahatma Gandhi

  14. #514
    Quote Originally Posted by Mechagnome View Post
    We are getting flying with 9.1 and NO PATHFINDER, and just as you suggested, the new content, Korthia, will still be a no flying zone. Congrats. You won the argument. Now we can finally put this poor horse powder into an air tight container and bury the remains of this over beaten creature.
    Just keep the shovels handy so we can dig it up again when they start talking about the next expansion.

  15. #515
    Quote Originally Posted by SirCowdog View Post
    Case in point:

    Yet another person mindlessly repeating the "it's a compromise" or "it's a middle ground".

    No....Meroko. It's NOT a compromise. It's definitely not a middle ground.
    Pretty sure 8.2 and 8.3 patch content had flying when they were current and that’s just 1 expansion ago.

  16. #516
    Quote Originally Posted by Akibaboy View Post
    Added in 3.2:
    Flying over Dalaran and Wintergrasp is now possible so long as players keep a healthy distance above the ground.

    WotLK launched with WG being 100% no fly all the time.
    I know it very well, but your was the second comment indicating wintergrasp being a no fly zone without any citation, coupled with IoQD.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Argorwal View Post
    Pretty sure 8.2 and 8.3 patch content had flying when they were current and that’s just 1 expansion ago.
    8.3... Imagine de-flying(? word?) Uldum and the Vale for that rehashed shitty "content" the entirety 8.3 was. Imagine what a flowing shit-show would that have been.

  17. #517
    Quote Originally Posted by Dhrizzle View Post
    Just keep the shovels handy so we can dig it up again when they start talking about the next expansion.
    You've spent more time keeping this argument alive than I have. Think about that for a second.

  18. #518
    Quote Originally Posted by lockybalboa View Post
    If flying and other content are made available or more readily available sooner and content is consumed more quickly there will be less incentive for people to log on over a longer period of time, you get the drift? This is why they introduced shady stuff like the loot reduction BS.
    Again, it does not matter how long you are logged in, only that you logged in at all. Your post is nothing but you making up claims to fit your agenda.

  19. #519
    Quote Originally Posted by Dhrizzle View Post
    Just keep the shovels handy so we can dig it up again when they start talking about the next expansion.
    I get that flying is cool... I do. And I get that up until WoD flight at level cap was not an issue. Obviously Blizz is changing direction again away from pathfinder. Maybe if these guys spent half as much time actually PLAYING the game instead of lurking here and complaining about it, the minute Pathfinder dropped they would already have it. Just my two cents. I'm not found of circular arguments where the losing side refuses to just acknowledge the way things are and put a legitimate complaint on the actual forums, or simply unsub and use flight as the excuse.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by SirCowdog View Post
    You've spent more time keeping this argument alive than I have. Think about that for a second.
    100k gold says you have MORE posts in this thread than he does. 1 year of gametime says you will STILL be in this thread long after the two of us walk out to go play the game.
    “Be the change you want to see in the world.” ~ Mahatma Gandhi

  20. #520
    Quote Originally Posted by Mechagnome View Post


    100k gold says you have MORE posts in this thread than he does. 1 year of gametime says you will STILL be in this thread long after the two of us walk out to go play the game.
    Offering items that have no value to one party.

    Is this a "compromise"? Rofl!
    Last edited by SirCowdog; 2021-03-02 at 03:09 AM.

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