Raid and Dungeon Tuning - March 2, Patch 9.0.5 PTR - Build 37774

[Nalam the Venom]

You would only expect people to do content when they have better gear than what is dropped by the content?

The drop chance from M+ is too low for people to actully run it for the loot, so i personally only do M+ for the vault slot, which gives 220-226 depending on key.

[Hyrican]

the conduit still dropping even after you have it in a bag is an after effect on them trying to avoid you gaming the system with having conduits in the bag but unlearned, so you might be able to target conduits you want (e.g. just with venaari item unlocking unlearned conduits when you buy it without having learned all conduits instead of upgrading the lowest "learned" conduit...

[Gasparde]

probably they are tired with VDH having to constantly kite to stay alive ?

the only and sole reason vengence is strong is because of how godly they are with kiting. if they dont kite they are super squishy

and guess what - you average players dont know what kiting even is.

Absolute fucking bullshit.

This fucking meme that DHs are gods at kiting because they can leap like twice per pack is so fucking hilarious.
If we're looking at things in a vacuum then Paladins are way better kiters than DHs, simply due to the fact that they have a permanent aoe slow on everything and 6s horses are arguably even better than a DHs jump.
But we're not even looking at stuff in a vacuum. Tanks usually come with teams that support them with their kiting. It doesn't matter if you're the most immobile class in the game if you have a Mage, Druid, Hunter and Rogue permanently stunning, slowing and kicking shit away from you - even a DK can kite under those circumstances.

DHs are meta because they are more tanky than anyone else (bar Druids) AND they have more damage than most other tanks... AND because they have pretty solid kiting tools on their own. The idea that DHs are only popular because of their kiting comes a) from people who know fuck all about VDH and b) from people who know fuck all about anything but have heard someone talk some random bullshit in their +7 key once and have since then started to regurgitate that nonsense at any given opportunity.

DHs are good tanks because they're good tanks, not because they're good runners.

[Firebeast]

Sooooo......that's it??? No more tuning??Are you telling me that the classes are all okay???? What a joke

[erifwodahs]

If that’s the idea I don’t think that 10% will make THAT difference, but I guess we shall see soon enough.

It will make some difference, that's all we need.

[Loveliest]

Paladins are way better kiters than DHs, simply due to the fact that they have a permanent aoe slow

You're joking, right? Perma means our 10 yard cons? The point is not to kite forever, but get the fuck away fast and keep a large distance. 10 yards is so small, they'll be on your ass faster than the 4s needed to place it down again unless you already have a large enough gap inbetween. Our speed is every 45s and some of the bigger mobs don't get slowed. So I would rather have a leap thank you very much, so I can actually be safe and give the healer actual time to heal me when things go south.

[neescher]

probably they are tired with VDH having to constantly kite to stay alive ?

the only and sole reason vengence is strong is because of how godly they are with kiting. if they dont kite they are super squishy

and guess what - you average players dont know what kiting even is.

I'm no tank so I don't know the specifics, but in my experience of healing pug tanks in ~15-16s, DHs can facetank much MUCH better than paladins or DKs. They don't feel squishy to me at all...


/edit: What Gasparde said is more like my experience as well. Except for the fact that he said palas are good at kiting... I don't think pala tanks are good at anything right now unfortunately (except dealing damage). I've had some pala tanks who were good at kiting and even facetanking some packs, but about 90% of pug pala tanks are worthless unfortunately and I try to avoid them in 15+ keys if I can but yeah, the 50% slow on consecration and 45 sec CD horse does not mean palas are good kiters.

[Toybox]

Of all the bosses to nerf on Mythic, I'm surprised it's Sun King seeing the bat.

Sooooo......that's it??? No more tuning??Are you telling me that the classes are all okay???? What a joke

9.0.5 should be out this month, where bigger changes should hopefully happen.

[Sunnydee]

Well i assume noone at below 210 are doing +10 keys.

At least i would not dare go that content until properly geared.

elaborate please. im Interested in your way of thinking here.

I mean this is just my alt but i have no idea wth you're on about.

https://imgur.com/a/LZHs8vj

[Samuraijake]

Absolute fucking bullshit.

This fucking meme that DHs are gods at kiting because they can leap like twice per pack is so fucking hilarious.
If we're looking at things in a vacuum then Paladins are way better kiters than DHs, simply due to the fact that they have a permanent aoe slow on everything and 6s horses are arguably even better than a DHs jump.
But we're not even looking at stuff in a vacuum. Tanks usually come with teams that support them with their kiting. It doesn't matter if you're the most immobile class in the game if you have a Mage, Druid, Hunter and Rogue permanently stunning, slowing and kicking shit away from you - even a DK can kite under those circumstances.

DHs are meta because they are more tanky than anyone else (bar Druids) AND they have more damage than most other tanks... AND because they have pretty solid kiting tools on their own. The idea that DHs are only popular because of their kiting comes a) from people who know fuck all about VDH and b) from people who know fuck all about anything but have heard someone talk some random bullshit in their +7 key once and have since then started to regurgitate that nonsense at any given opportunity.

DHs are good tanks because they're good tanks, not because they're good runners.

This^ .... people need to start hearing this ^

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Sooooo......that's it??? No more tuning??Are you telling me that the classes are all okay???? What a joke

Where did you see that there is no more tuning?

[erifwodahs]

DHs are meta because they are more tanky than anyone else (bar Druids) AND they have more damage than most other tanks... AND because they have pretty solid kiting tools on their own. The idea that DHs are only popular because of their kiting comes a) from people who know fuck all about VDH and b) from people who know fuck all about anything but have heard someone talk some random bullshit in their +7 key once and have since then started to regurgitate that nonsense at any given opportunity.

DHs are good tanks because they're good tanks, not because they're good runners.

Yep,
Solid damage, cheat deaths, solid self heal, OP sigils plus kiting ability makes them good tanks. In an open area paladin is a God kiter, I can kite to no end with 0 effort, but as soon as something hits it harder than a bitchslap, it just dies outside of cooldowns. In VDHs are in MDI not just because they don't get hit, they are there because they can get hit, they can sustain themselves and survive too, even lethal hits and at the same time do some big damage. Add excellent trash control tools and there you go. If there is something what other tank can do - DH can do it too, and if they can't they will have someone in the team to cover.

[chiddie]

Well i assume noone at below 210 are doing +10 keys.

At least i would not dare go that content until properly geared.

Uh?

I got all keys but one at 10-11 and I’m 205.

+10 drops 203, why should I do anything below 10?

[erifwodahs]

You're joking, right? Perma means our 10 yard cons? The point is not to kite forever, but get the fuck away fast and keep a large distance. 10 yards is so small, they'll be on your ass faster than the 4s needed to place it down again unless you already have a large enough gap inbetween. Our speed is every 45s and some of the bigger mobs don't get slowed. So I would rather have a leap thank you very much, so I can actually be safe and give the healer actual time to heal me when things go south.

Paladin tank here. We can definitely kite. Confined spaces are hard, but cons. is really good for kiting. It's not like mobs are running at 200% when they are not slowed which means after every cons. ground you are making a gap bigger. And that is not including your party toolkit.
Paladin negative is that we can't take damage and grouping up trash requires more effort We can do ton of damage, more than VHDs can do for sure, but for that we need to face tank, which we can't do in high keys when are are out of cooldowns. We can heal like Gods too, but for that we need not to die which is tough.
If paladins didn't take so much dmg and Nelfs could be paladins - I guarantee you that we would have paladin tanks in MDI because of our superior damage output, but we are lacking severely in tankiness and some good tool to round the trash up so the party can really blow the stuff up.

[Kaver]

yeh that much i gathered but her hp during the gauntlet even and her hp when you actually fight her are the same
so dose that mean she will regain 10% when you actually go to fight her,

the hotfix still makes no sense as the gauntlet isnt the issue with the fight

It's not her health percentage that's reduced by 10 %. It's 10% of the actual quantitative health you need to dps during the gauntlet.

[chiddie]

You would only expect people to do content when they have better gear than what is dropped by the content?

His idea is probably just bruteforce keys.

That is one idea indeed but it’s not mandatory. I made a HoA and a SoA 10 yesterday where we did 4 of 8 bosses in 4 because one dps kept dying and the second HoA boss in 3 because 2 dps died. It took ages but we did them and also timed both keys.

[erifwodahs]

Have not had any problems on him even of +13 keys.

Tho he was annoying near launch in M0

What ilvl was that? If you do +13, but your gear is good enough for +18 then your comment means nothing. Also second boss is an outlier in comparison to other bosses

[Nalam the Venom]

elaborate please. im Interested in your way of thinking here.

I mean this is just my alt but i have no idea wth you're on about.

https://imgur.com/a/LZHs8vj

I just don’t think i’m good enough no matter what gear i have.

So even the thought of going M+ 10 before high gear scares me.

Good that you can get invited to +16 PuGs as ilvl 209 tho.

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Uh?

I got all keys but one at 10-11 and I’m 205.

+10 drops 203, why should I do anything below 10?

I just don’t think i’m good enough no matter what gear i have.

So even the thought of going M+ 10 before high gear scares me.

So maby it’s my own mindset that messes up my world view.

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What ilvl was that? If you do +13, but your gear is good enough for +18 then your comment means nothing. Also second boss is an outlier in comparison to other bosses

I hope to hit 220 with vault this week if i’m lucky.

But as i said to the other guys, It’s probably just my own insecurities that add an extra 10 ilvl to what the ilvl is actually needed for the content.

[kamuimac]

Uh?

I got all keys but one at 10-11 and I’m 205.

+10 drops 203, why should I do anything below 10?

then you dont experience what average pugs experience

majority of people dont get carried like you did.

[erifwodahs]

I hope to hit 220 with vault this week if i’m lucky.

But as i said to the other guys, It’s probably just my own insecurities that add an extra 10 ilvl to what the ilvl is actually needed for the content.

Might be. Some bosses don't really get broken until it hits higher keys.
Hakkar is very very good example. Until +14 or +15 I legit did not know what it was doing. Just come in and nuke it. It's actually a hard boss if you don't do it properly.
Same with Manastorms. I think I was starting to do +10s or +11 when I learned that you are supposed to stun the boss.
Broker boss, same dungeon, I think it was +13 when I noticed the debuff sharing.

[chiddie]

then you dont experience what average pugs experience

majority of people dont get carried like you did.

lol why are you assuming I’m being carried?

I grinded my way up to this point 95% in Pug (which is NOT a great point by any meaning but considering I do not play that much I’m quite happy with my results) as many of us did.

If you think you need 250 ilvl to do a +10 you clearly have some gameplay issues.