The Story Is Utter Garbage Now

[Soon-TM]

Who's a mary sue?

Thrall in Cata, Varian in MoP, Jaina or Anduin in BfA. And BfA Sylvanas is the epitome of an evil Mary Sue, or at least she was until Afrasiabi got booted quit. Sorry, but "MuH jAilOr eMP0WeReD hEr" doesn't really count as "lore reasoning" lawl.

[TheFirstOnes]

Thrall in Cata, Varian in MoP, Jaina or Anduin in BfA. And BfA Sylvanas is the epitome of an evil Mary Sue, or at least she was until Afrasiabi got booted quit. Sorry, but "MuH jAilOr eMP0WeReD hEr" doesn't really count as "lore reasoning" lawl.

Thrall and Varian are not Gary Stu's. Thrall was empowered by the Aspects and was sent to try and control the Elements and stop Deathwing in the Cataclysm. In the process, he failed to stop Deathwing twice with a divine artifact (And needed us and the Aspects to truly stop him), he needed our aid against foes of the Firelands (He was literally ripped apart once, actually. And WE had to save him), and he needed out help in Deepholm, the Dragon's Temple in Northrend, etc. Definitely not Gary Stu material whatsoever, ESPECIALLY since the events afterward would bring about a scar that would forever haunt Thrall, even to this day. Varian fits that same field, since he's failed multiple times as well, and we needed to help him still in order to achieve Victory.

Anduin is not a Gary Stu in BFA. Idk what your logic is behind that. Dude's lost a ton, and rn, in SL, he's the Jailer's puppet. And Sylvanas in BFA is exactly my fuckin argument against "mary sues". She literally got outted by the end of the story, and her only issue there was the fact that everyone else in the Horde was so fucking dumb. That doesn't make, in herself, a Mary Sue (Especially not a Villain Mary Sue, since she doesn't really get away with much).

" Sorry, but "MuH jAilOr eMP0WeReD hEr" doesn't really count as "lore reasoning" lawl." No. It is. That's the whole point. You not liking it doesn't matter. No one cares about your personal feelings. The FACT is that the Jailer did empower Sylvanas, which was why she was as powerful as she was. Did you just miss the whole point? or?

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Sometimes, I seriously doubt y'all actually play the game. It's kinda funny, really.

[DingDongKing]

Thrall and Varian are not Gary Stu's. Thrall was empowered by the Aspects and was sent to try and control the Elements and stop Deathwing in the Cataclysm. In the process, he failed to stop Deathwing twice with a divine artifact (And needed us and the Aspects to truly stop him), he needed our aid against foes of the Firelands (He was literally ripped apart once, actually. And WE had to save him), and he needed out help in Deepholm, the Dragon's Temple in Northrend, etc. Definitely not Gary Stu material whatsoever, ESPECIALLY since the events afterward would bring about a scar that would forever haunt Thrall, even to this day. Varian fits that same field, since he's failed multiple times as well, and we needed to help him still in order to achieve Victory.

Anduin is not a Gary Stu in BFA. Idk what your logic is behind that. Dude's lost a ton, and rn, in SL, he's the Jailer's puppet. And Sylvanas in BFA is exactly my fuckin argument against "mary sues". She literally got outted by the end of the story, and her only issue there was the fact that everyone else in the Horde was so fucking dumb. That doesn't make, in herself, a Mary Sue (Especially not a Villain Mary Sue, since she doesn't really get away with much).

" Sorry, but "MuH jAilOr eMP0WeReD hEr" doesn't really count as "lore reasoning" lawl." No. It is. That's the whole point. You not liking it doesn't matter. No one cares about your personal feelings. The FACT is that the Jailer did empower Sylvanas, which was why she was as powerful as she was. Did you just miss the whole point? or?

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Sometimes, I seriously doubt y'all actually play the game. It's kinda funny, really.

I would also struggle to say the characters are 'Gary Stues' or 'Mary Sues'.

They're just all really inconsistently written and sometimes really badly written.

It's more frustrating when you read some of the novels and they're actually pretty decent. Like William King's Illidan novel.

[TheFirstOnes]

I would also struggle to say the characters are 'Gary Stues' or 'Mary Sues'.

They're just all really inconsistently written and sometimes really badly written.

It's more frustrating when you read some of the novels and they're actually pretty decent. Like William King's Illidan novel.

We're not. Lore wise, we've been overpowered and have literally died lore-wise. Hell, at the beginning of SL, we were failing to slay Nathanos, only for Tyrande to pop in and smack him, and therefore saving us in the process.

I agree with what you say though. It's bad writing. Illidan novel was goated, however.

[Edward Wu]

"but it's actually just very average."

"problem is we aren't even close to average anymore. The writing team blows."

Oh, so you're not only wrong. But you're also dishonest, and in the very same post as well. Nice.

Can you not read? I was referring to the more mature and layered story of Warcraft 3 to be just average, hence why it's written directly afterward.

Wipe the froth from your mouth and read it again carefully.

Infracted.

[TheFirstOnes]

Without borrowed power, we suck. With it, we're tough. Simple. Tho, that alone is not all true, since us post Ny'alotha were legit getting fucked by NATHANOS. lel

[ParanoiD84]

It's more frustrating when you read some of the novels and they're actually pretty decent. Like William King's Illidan novel.

Probably the only decent wow novel and it's written by a black library author aka warhammer author but yeah it was the only time someone managed to acually make the Legion feel like a threat and not a joke.

[TheFirstOnes]

Can you not read? I was referring to the more mature and layered story of Warcraft 3 to be just average, hence why it's written directly afterward.

Wipe the froth from your mouth and read it again carefully.

Maybe I am wrong about the full context (My fault), but you're missing points too bud, so at least be aware of that. Vegas never claimed WC3 or anything like that was "great", yet you replied to him by saying "Apparently THIS is great writing to you, but it's really just average".

Kinda sounds like you're projecting some type of false narrative here to go against points nobody made.

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Probably the only decent wow novel and it's written by a black library author aka warhammer author but yeah it was the only time someone managed to acually make the Legion feel like a threat and not a joke.

The Illidan novel and the Chronicle are my 2 main sources for when I want to wank off the Legion's power.

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You got me dude. The story in your video game where you slay internet dragons for imaginary loot was infinitely better when it was about {insert favorite expansion's bad guy here}.

Ironic how you post neckbeard tier posts like this, despite the fact your PFP is made to mock that exact nature. This is wrong. You can write stories with Dragons and shit like that, and still make it mature. Not an argument.

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I'll go against every one of you. I'll beat all of your asses at this (Not trying to be rude here). Idc. I'll clearly explain why WoW lore is better than you think it is, and I'll even go against people defending the lore. Idc. Come at me.

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Ah, yes. The famous "I don't think you actually believe what you say so I win" argument.




Can you point out to me which part seems like comedy or satire to you?

If this is an argument against WoW's lore and how it's "HURR NOT AS DEEP AS WC3's, HURR" then I want you to replay the fucking game. Rewatch the Cataclysm cinematics, or fuckin look at the recent SL cinematics. What's satire and comedy about it? Sorry you dislike a few retcons in your little story. Want me to play the World's Smallest Violin for ya? Still doesn't make it not dark or immature.

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And no, N'Zoth is not an argument. Play 8.3. You could clearly understand the fucking context once you realize the tools we had in preparation of the battle against N'Zoth. Shit was pretty fucking serious.



What about here, huh? What about this is immature? Or less mature than WC3? Go on. Tell me.

[DingDongKing]

We're not. Lore wise, we've been overpowered and have literally died lore-wise. Hell, at the beginning of SL, we were failing to slay Nathanos, only for Tyrande to pop in and smack him, and therefore saving us in the process.

I agree with what you say though. It's bad writing. Illidan novel was goated, however.

What I’m gonna say is weird, but I don’t even see our characters are part of ‘lore’. It’s like when you read about how Thrall defeated Deathwing. It’s Aspects + Thrall + Adventurers. So I don’t really factor player characters into the lore even!

[TheFirstOnes]

What I’m gonna say is weird, but I don’t even see our characters are part of ‘lore’. It’s like when you read about how Thrall defeated Deathwing. It’s Aspects + Thrall + Adventurers. So I don’t really factor player characters into the lore even!

We're in lore. Sure, your specifically named character for the game might not be the "Champion" showcased in lore, but we do exist. We're literally in the Chronicle as the "champions of the Alliance and the Horde".

[Edward Wu]

Vegas never claimed WC3 or anything like that was "great", yet you replied to him by saying "Apparently THIS is great writing to you, but it's really just average".
Kinda sounds like you're projecting some type of false narrative here to go against points nobody made.
[

No, "Apparently, this is great writing to you" is a response to him implying WoW has never been on the level of a multi-dimensional, layered story. The context here is that this is what I desire from the game, there's no real disagreement between him and me on my core point.

Your reading comprehension leaves much to be desired.

[TheFirstOnes]

No, "Apparently, this is great writing to you" is a response to him implying WoW has never been on the level of a multi-dimensional, layered story. The context here is that this is what I desire from the game, there's no real disagreement between him and me on my core point.

Your reading comprehension leaves much to be desired.

He's still made zero mention of the story being "great", so it doesn't matter what your context is, you're still arguing something the guy you quoted never made. Maybe you should read your own posts next time. Don't judge, if you cannot do it well yourself.

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I assume no one wants to counter me on why WoW's story isn't as mature of 3's? Come on guys. I have all fuckin day.

[Soon-TM]

Thrall and Varian are not Gary Stu's. Thrall was empowered by the Aspects

Sure, he was uber special, pulling special powers out of his rear, getting loved by everyone (well, I guess SI:7 didn't, but since it didn't have any consequences, it can be safely dismissed) and showing up everywhere. Him requiring aid doesn't make him any less of a Mary Sue, or why do you think that he earned the moniker of Green Jesus at that time?

Varian fits that same field

No, he doesn't. Dude was a better fighter than f***ing Garrosh, a better military commander than Tyrande, despite having no military training whatsoever, a better father than Durotan, a wiser leader than Velen. None of his flaws impeded him in the slightest, so we can safely conclude that they were purely cosmetic.

Anduin is not a Gary Stu in BFA.

Dude, are you sure you played during BfA? Anduin is always right during BfA, has no flaws (or at least, none that actually impedes him, much like his father), everyone loves him except the obviously EvVvUuL Sylvanas, and even Tyrande, who has legitimate reasons to be... let's say upset with him, is being depicted as edgy, even irrational. And now he's mind controlled, or w/e... That isn't even his fault lol, what character development will come out of that? I hope he won't revert to his old, self righteous self once we (presumably) free him, that would really cement his status as the biggest Sue in the current lore.

And Sylvanas in BFA is exactly my fuckin argument against "mary sues". She literally got outted by the end of the story, and her only issue there was the fact that everyone else in the Horde was so fucking dumb. That doesn't make, in herself, a Mary Sue (Especially not a Villain Mary Sue, since she doesn't really get away with much).

She got away with EVERYTHING, even if she is dumb as a brick. The Jailor is empowered, her enemies from BfA are broken and hopeless, and she's still going to get redeemed so that she can come dry off the downpour. You aren't paying too much attention, are you?

" Sorry, but "MuH jAilOr eMP0WeReD hEr" doesn't really count as "lore reasoning" lawl." No. It is. That's the whole point. You not liking it doesn't matter. No one cares about your personal feelings. The FACT is that the Jailer did empower Sylvanas, which was why she was as powerful as she was. Did you just miss the whole point? or?

It is you who's missing the point. Of course writers can pull some lame explanation out of their collective ass and call it a day, but that doesn't mean that it makes sense or that it has had a proper buildup. Especially since she was rewritten like 4 times in as many years.

[Nerovar]

If this is an argument against WoW's lore and how it's "HURR NOT AS DEEP AS WC3's, HURR" then I want you to replay the fucking game. Rewatch the Cataclysm cinematics, or fuckin look at the recent SL cinematics. What's satire and comedy about it? Sorry you dislike a few retcons in your little story. Want me to play the World's Smallest Violin for ya? Still doesn't make it not dark or immature.

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And no, N'Zoth is not an argument. Play 8.3. You could clearly understand the fucking context once you realize the tools we had in preparation of the battle against N'Zoth. Shit was pretty fucking serious.



What about here, huh? What about this is immature? Or less mature than WC3? Go on. Tell me.

I have absolutely no idea what you're trying to tell me with this insane rant. I don't even know what you're trying to argue or how this relates to my post.



I merely contested the claim that Warcraft 3's story was somehow comedy/satire. Imagine being this fragile that you interpret a defense of Warcraft 3 as an attack on more recent WoW lore. What the actual fuck.

Kinda sounds like you're projecting some type of false narrative here to go against points nobody made.

[TheFirstOnes]

I have absolutely no idea what you're trying to tell me with this insane rant. I don't even know what you're trying to argue or how this relates to my post.



I merely contested the claim that Warcraft 3's story was somehow comedy/satire. Imagine being this fragile that you interpret a defense of Warcraft 3 as an attack on more recent WoW lore. What the actual fuck.

This entire post is dedicated to WoW lore being "utter garbage" and shit like that currently. The argument you're quoting was that Warcraft was always in a way generic and held some comedic factors into it (Yes, WC3 fuckin fits. The Pandaren, and other things like that can count as comedic). Since you're so defensive for WC3 when it's compared to modern WoW and how much it holds up to this day, I'm going to do the same by asking you how WoW lore is not as mature as WC3's.

Is that ok enough for you? No one is being "fragile". Don't be dense here.

[ParanoiD84]

The Illidan novel and the Chronicle are my 2 main sources for when I want to wank off the legions power.

Perhaps they should hire more warhammer authors as that is most likely the only time someone is going to make the villains feel like acual villans and a threat in wow.

But yeah it was a good novel but William King knows his shit from being along time warhammer author.

Though I did enjoy the Arthas story in wrath too.

[Edward Wu]

He's still made zero mention of the story being "great"
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He doesn't need to. The point he was making is that a multi-dimensional, layered story IS great writing AND that the Warcraft IP has never reached this height, I replied and said that I don't think a multi-dimensional, layered story is great writing, but rather average. That is the only disagreement of worth shared by us. My core point of WC3 having had much better storytelling than WoW was never actually challenged by him, because he never compared the two directly. So, your point is moot...

[Josyel]

Also, what happened to BfA cinematics?

Why are we getting animated gif-like comic strips instead?

[TheFirstOnes]

Sure, he was uber special, pulling special powers out of his rear, getting loved by everyone (well, I guess SI:7 didn't, but since it didn't have any consequences, it can be safely dismissed) and showing up everywhere. Him requiring aid doesn't make him any less of a Mary Sue, or why do you think that he earned the moniker of Green Jesus at that time?



No, he doesn't. Dude was a better fighter than f***ing Garrosh, a better military commander than Tyrande, despite having no military training whatsoever, a better father than Durotan, a wiser leader than Velen. None of his flaws impeded him in the slightest, so we can safely conclude that they were purely cosmetic.



Dude, are you sure you played during BfA? Anduin is always right during BfA, has no flaws (or at least, none that actually impedes him, much like his father), everyone loves him except the obviously EvVvUuL Sylvanas, and even Tyrande, who has legitimate reasons to be... let's say upset with him, is being depicted as edgy, even irrational. And now he's mind controlled, or w/e... That isn't even his fault lol, what character development will come out of that? I hope he won't revert to his old, self righteous self once we (presumably) free him, that would really cement his status as the biggest Sue in the current lore.



She got away with EVERYTHING, even if she is dumb as a brick. The Jailor is empowered, her enemies from BfA are broken and hopeless, and she's still going to get redeemed so that she can come dry off the downpour. You aren't paying too much attention, are you?



It is you who's missing the point. Of course writers can pull some lame explanation out of their collective ass and call it a day, but that doesn't mean that it makes sense or that it has had a proper buildup. Especially since she was rewritten like 4 times in as many years.

1. What special powers has he pulled out of his ass? Be specific here. He wasn't loved by everyone. He actually had to get people to trust him. Shocking, I know. And he never showed up everything. What are you on about with that? The guy wasn't in Uldum, he wasn't in Vashj'ir, and he wasn't at the Firelands raid. The hell?

2. Varian has shown tons of years as a gladiator, and has led the Alliance to victory on multiple occasions. Him outmatching Tyrande in command is not a sign of a Gary Stu, since he's literally bred as a warrior and leader. Tyrande isn't perfect either. You'll find that age is not a factor in regards to leadership. Also, "no military training"? What the fuck are you talking about? And where does it say that he was a better fighter than Garrosh? Can I see proof of your claims? Durotan wasn't even given the chance to BE a father before he fuckin died, and Velen was only a mid leader because of his insane faith in the Light, which luckily got rebuked in Legion, and now Velen's a fucking chad of a leader.

3. Genn, Tyrande, the Dwarves, etc all doubted Anduin. Legion, Before the Storm, and Shadows Rising literally provide Anduin multiple cases where people have doubted him as leader, and have even just straight up disagreed with him. So, no. Not to mention he has lost multiple times aswell. Talanji and co escaped, Lordaeron wasn't saved, Tyrande has Anduin on mute, etc. His only real victory was the whole Saurfang shit, and that was more so diplomatic than anything, really. Oh, and Arathi. But, that's it.

4. Nothing is stated she's getting "redeemed". This is just speculation. And no, like I mentioned earlier, she doesn't "get away with everything". We haven't even actually encountered her yet. This would be like arguing "WELL, KJ GOT AWAY WITH EVERYTHING AGAINST THE DRAENEI FOR COUNTLESS YEARS! THAT MEANS HE IS A GARY STU" like no. That's not how it works. KJ and Sylvanas have both been defeated in their own rights, and they both will likely get their rightful deaths. Tho, Sylvanas will probably go out trying to stop the Jailer. Nothing wrong with thinking this. But this is me assuming, and nothing more. No more of a bigger assumption than your weird ass "redemption" claims.

5. "but that doesn't mean that it makes sense or that it has had a proper buildup." Sure it can. Just say she started getting her amps since the Edge of Night book, which was why she had such massive ties with Helya in Legion, etc. Nothing too crazy there. Also, how has she been rewritten 4 times? Wot?

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He doesn't need to. The point he was making is that a multi-dimensional, layered story IS great writing AND that the Warcraft IP has never reached this height, I replied and said that I don't think a multi-dimensional, layered story is great writing, but rather average. That is the only disagreement of worth shared by us. My core point of WC3 having had much better storytelling than WoW was never actually challenged by him, because he never compared the two directly. So, your point is moot...

My point wasn't on him comparing the two, and saying which one was "better" anyhow, because you're right, he never challenged that opinion head on really, so idk why you're applying random words to my posts. Also, no, that's not what he was saying. He was saying that the story of WoW is just fine being a layered story with multi dimensional elements. Not that it was "great" or anything like that. He even says that Warcraft PEAKED ages ago, and that it was average at best. Pretty sure he was actually kind of agreeing with you, tbh.

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Also, what happened to BfA cinematics?

Why are we getting animated gif-like comic strips instead?

What are you talking about?

[Aleksej89]

The HOTStorm/SLands kel'thuzad is absolutely horrible, he constantly yells like a dumbass and his lines are coming from an 8y old.

KZad had a phenomenal voice in War3 and overall was a cold/cool (pun intended) villain that genocides people while whispering sweet words.

Overall the SL villains are beyond awful and the story does not create any interest to follow it.
Sire Denathrius had some charm and wit but he got canned in raid 1 while ZOVAAL or whatever his detergent name is still mucking around with his BFF everyone is sick of.