The Story Is Utter Garbage Now

[Orby]

Give OP credit, he's not blaming Sylvanas. We thinking outside the box now

[Verdugo]

Perhaps they should hire more warhammer authors as that is most likely the only time someone is going to make the villains feel like acual villans and a threat in wow.

Careful what you wish for, Blizzard monkey paw might just hire C. S. Goto.

[Akibaboy]

I'd like to know what kind of fucking cartoons you all watched as a kid on a saturday morning

Lets play the guessing game everyone! These are all actual Saturday Morning Cartoons I watched as a kid.

1. A living biological weapon stabs and turns hundreds of thousands of people into flesh bags that he eats to get stronger. Genocide of multiple planets. Children getting the life violently beaten out of them.
2. An entire colony of people are gassed and their home is dropped onto earth, wiping out Australia and accelerating climate change to drastic degrees. A young man whose father was betrayed and assassinated secretly plots from within to murder every member of the family that killed him. A 14-year-old boy is conscripted into being a murder machine because the adults are set on exploiting the next generation to continue their systems of oppression (a direct-cited theme from the series creator).
3. A group of people who are genetically different must fight to survive in a world where purist zealots campaign to have them killed or corralled because of who they are. One of them is seemingly murdered in the first episode.

[ParanoiD84]

Careful what you wish for, Blizzard monkey paw might just hire C. S. Goto.

Haha true.

[Nerovar]

This entire post is dedicated to WoW lore being "utter garbage" and shit like that currently. The argument you're quoting was that Warcraft was always in a way generic and held some comedic factors into it (Yes, WC3 fuckin fits. The Pandaren, and other things like that can count as comedic). Since you're so defensive for WC3 when it's compared to modern WoW and how much it holds up to this day, I'm going to do the same by asking you how WoW lore is not as mature as WC3's.

Is that ok enough for you? No one is being "fragile". Don't be dense here.

You're not only misrepresenting the position of the person I initially quoted (they didn't claim WC3 had comedic factors they said WC was by and large a satire/comic medium) but also ascribing positions to me that I neither expressed nor hold only to ask me to defend those positions.

Once again you're displaying your striking inability to argue in good faith.

[TheFirstOnes]

You're not only misrepresenting the position of the person I initially quoted (they didn't claim WC3 had comedic factors they said WC was by and large a satire/comic medium) but also ascribing positions to me that I neither expressed nor hold only to ask me to defend those positions.

Once again you're displaying your striking inability to argue in good faith.

"they said WC was by and large a satire/comic medium" In a way, it was. WC3 isn't the only RTS game from the original WC trilogy. The first 2 RTS games legit existed to be dumb, satirical medieval combat fun.

Besides, you were kinda arguing against people that said "WoW has always been comedic and/or generic, even in the OG RTS games such as WC3". Idk why you merely took offense into WC3 being not all that clever, and being rather satirical (Cause it is at points), but that kinda implies to me that you think WoW fits the "Oh, it's satirical and comedic and totally not all mature" list, and not WC3. And I'm just lookin for reasons as to why you probably think this. Nothing lost in good faith at all. Hell, I'd argue I'm totally debating in good faith.

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Lets play the guessing game everyone! These are all actual Saturday Morning Cartoons I watched as a kid.

1. A living biological weapon stabs and turns hundreds of thousands of people into flesh bags that he eats to get stronger. Genocide of multiple planets. Children getting the life violently beaten out of them.
2. An entire colony of people are gassed and their home is dropped onto earth, wiping out Australia and accelerating climate change to drastic degrees. A young man whose father was betrayed and assassinated secretly plots from within to murder every member of the family that killed him. A 14-year-old boy is conscripted into being a murder machine because the adults are set on exploiting the next generation to continue their systems of oppression (a direct-cited theme from the series creator).
3. A group of people who are genetically different must fight to survive in a world where purist zealots campaign to have them killed or corralled because of who they are. One of them is seemingly murdered in the first episode.

Would be helpful if I could know your age or something, so I could get a better idea on what shows you're talkin bout.

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Perhaps they should hire more warhammer authors as that is most likely the only time someone is going to make the villains feel like acual villans and a threat in wow.

But yeah it was a good novel but William King knows his shit from being along time warhammer author.

Though I did enjoy the Arthas story in wrath too.

I doubt Warhammer guys can write characters that are more impressive than the Jailer, who apparently can end the entire Warcraft Verse if released from the Maw and given all the Pantheon of Death Keys.

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And I doubt they can write guys that are stronger than beings that represent the Outer Gods (The Void Lords), and guys that supposedly made everything and apparently range above all the Cosmic Pantheons.

[Akibaboy]

Would be helpful if I could know your age or something, so I could get a better idea on what shows you're talkin bout.

I'm 30. The answers are not obscure in the slightest, some of the biggest name IPs of all time.

[Dimmak]

Why would we get the Kel'thuzad of Warcraft 3 when he hasn't been that since at least Wrath?

Even earlier. We faced him in Vanilla and all he did was drive a floating rock and spread the plague as a cats paw.

[ParanoiD84]

"they said WC was by and large a satire/comic medium" In a way, it was. WC3 isn't the only RTS game from the original WC trilogy. The first 2 RTS games legit existed to be dumb, satirical medieval combat fun.

Besides, you were kinda arguing against people that said "WoW has always been comedic and/or generic, even in the OG RTS games such as WC3". Idk why you merely took offense into WC3 being not all that clever, and being rather satirical (Cause it is at points), but that kinda implies to me that you think WoW fits the "Oh, it's satirical and comedic and totally not all mature" list, and not WC3. And I'm just lookin for reasons as to why you probably think this. Nothing lost in good faith at all. Hell, I'd argue I'm totally debating in good faith.

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Would be helpful if I could know your age or something, so I could get a better idea on what shows you're talkin bout.

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I doubt Warhammer guys can write characters that are more impressive than the Jailer, who apparently can end the entire Warcraft Verse if released from the Maw and given all the Pantheon of Death Keys.

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And I doubt they can write guys that are stronger than beings that represent the Outer Gods (The Void Lords), and guys that supposedly made everything and apparently range above all the Cosmic Pantheons.

We have been over this already remember? You basicly begged me not to put quotes lol but if you ask nicely I can absolutely destroy you here with acual ton of quotes from the near one thousand novels compared to barely 20 wow novels.

And would it matter when wow's writing is complete dog shit and they do a pissed poor job explaining why the baddies are so good

That's why wow needs warhammer authors to do it and you just admitted illidan novel was the best in explaining why the Legion was a threat and not a complete joke a novel that was written by a warhammer author so come again?

And let's not forget that wow was a ripoff of warhammer same with Starcraft to 40k

Remember when you said you know pretty much nothing at all about Warhammer? Yeah this is more you not knowing other ips other then wow and thinks wow's writing team makes the baddest and most op lore figures of all time lmao

[AwkwardSquirtle]

Would be helpful if I could know your age or something, so I could get a better idea on what shows you're talkin bout.

From the look of it, 1 is Dragonball and 3 is X-Men. Don't recognise number 2.

[DingDongKing]

We're in lore. Sure, your specifically named character for the game might not be the "Champion" showcased in lore, but we do exist. We're literally in the Chronicle as the "champions of the Alliance and the Horde".

Yep, that’s what I said. ‘Adventurers/Champions’. But we’re not given a power scale or name or story. We’re just hanger-ons.

[Nerovar]

"they said WC was by and large a satire/comic medium" In a way, it was. WC3 isn't the only RTS game from the original WC trilogy. The first 2 RTS games legit existed to be dumb, satirical medieval combat fun.

Besides, you were kinda arguing against people that said "WoW has always been comedic and/or generic, even in the OG RTS games such as WC3". Idk why you merely took offense into WC3 being not all that clever, and being rather satirical (Cause it is at points), but that kinda implies to me that you think WoW fits the "Oh, it's satirical and comedic and totally not all mature" list, and not WC3.

The person I quoted used WC3 as an example which is why I also talked about WC3. Since you seem to take the same position I'd like to ask you the same question. Which part of WC3's actual story is comical/satirical and what is it satirizing?

And I'm just lookin for reasons as to why you probably think this. Nothing lost in good faith at all. Hell, I'd argue I'm totally debating in good faith.

The amount of conjecture in your posts is out of this world. It's insane to me how someone can beg the question this hard while claiming to argue in good faith.

[TheFirstOnes]

We have been over this already remember? You basicly begged me not to put quotes lol but if you ask nicely I can absolutely destroy you here with acual ton of quotes from the near one thousand novels compared to barely 20 wow novels.

And would it matter when wow's writing is complete dog shit and they do a pissed poor job explaining why the baddies are so good

That's why wow needs warhammer authors to do it and you just admitted illidan novel was the best in explaining why the Legion was a threat and not a complete joke a novel that was written by a warhammer author so come again?

And let's not forget that wow was a ripoff of warhammer same with Starcraft to 40k

Remember when you said you know pretty much nothing at all about Warhammer? Yeah this is more you not knowing other ips other then wow and thinks wow's writing team makes the baddest and most op lore figures of all time lmao

Ehh, I wouldn't jump right into conclusions. Just because I don't think the Warhammer writers can make guys in WoW that outclass what we currently have, that in itself doesn't mean much of anything. Reminder that the most of what you've given me is that the Chaos Gods can destroy multiple Universes, realities, and shit like that, yeah? The Jailer, if he gains all the keys, would instantly scale above that.

WoW isn't really a ripoff of 1 verse either. It's also taken things from Elder Scrolls, and LoTR (Hell, the Jailer and the Mawsworn are legit just 1 fuckin combination reference between Mordor, and Dante's Inferno's Hell).

"That's why wow needs warhammer authors to do it and you just admitted illidan novel was the best in explaining why the Legion was a threat and not a complete joke a novel that was written by a warhammer author so come again?" The Warhammer author also knows the lore of Warcraft, and understands it enough as to make sense of TBC, etc. Not EVERY Warhammer writer needs to pop into WoW, let's be real here. Warhammer has its own insane shit as it is.

"Remember when you said you know pretty much nothing at all about Warhammer? Yeah this is more you not knowing other ips other then wow and thinks wow's writing team makes the baddest and most op lore figures of all time lmao"

I actually got the top tiers of DC, Lovecraft, and Elder Scroll's much higher than WoW. I am claiming WoW's full of OP characters, but to say I know nothing of other IP's and say that I think WoW's characters are top tier is just being dishonest, really.

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From the look of it, 1 is Dragonball and 3 is X-Men. Don't recognise number 2.

Oh yeah, I can see #'s 1 and 3 now. #1 is talking about Cell. Clever. I thought the guy was talking about show synopsis' as a whole. Not just arcs.

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Yep, that’s what I said. ‘Adventurers/Champions’. But we’re not given a power scale or name or story. We’re just hanger-ons.

We're given a story and a power scale. Just not a name. The events our PC goes through in game is exactly what they go through in lore. The only differences is they don't share our name, and their zone/raid encounters are more separated. Meaning, the PC Alliance guy didn't do Ragefire, but the Horde guy did, ya know? But, the Alliance and Horde PC's went into Ny'alotha, and they went into Antorus, etc.

[Shadowferal]

Sure, WC3 story was no Shakespeare !@#$ or anything like that, but it was at least serviceable, and more importantly, it made sense. On the other hand, BC, a lot of Cata and all of WoD and BfA was either a disjointed mess or the adventures of the Mary Sue du jour - and little else. And frankly SL doesn't look a lot better (so far).

This.
I'm sure almost everyone, if not all, is looking for coherent logical sense. I mean they seemed to try that with Anduin growing up and into his own. But the follow through was just nonexistent.

[TheFirstOnes]

The person I quoted used WC3 as an example which is why I also talked about WC3. Since you seem to take the same position I'd like to ask you the same question. Which part of WC3's actual story is comical/satirical and what is it satirizing?



The amount of conjecture in your posts is out of this world. It's insane to me how someone can beg the question this hard while claiming to argue in good faith.

No one is begging. And since you're so kind to ask ME:

Satirical can be used to reference or mock shit. The Demons of WC3 were basically mockin' and referencing something more akin to Satan and the Demons of Hell.

The LK is ok in WC3, even if more so a generic reference to the ole' rulers of the dead from other fantasy. The Dreadlords are just fuckin Vampires, etc. There was a lot of satirical shit WoW decided to take way more seriously from WC3. In WoW, the Dreadlords became far more serious (Thanks to Shadowlands...supposedly, of course), the Legion became a far greater and more open threat (They even got their own, unique identity), the Titans became more than just generic creator gods (Nice), etc. Meanwhile, the stuff in WC3 that got expanded upon in WoW, was originally just pure references to other Fantasy genres and their stuff, if not downright satirical versions of em, as I mentioned above.

NONE OF THIS MEANS I DON'T THINK WC3 IS DARK THO! It is. WC3 is dark, and heavily story driven, and I like that. But, that in itself doesn't make it unbound by satirical or light hearted comedic moments/references/usages.

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Hell, the WC3 game itself didn't even have Old Gods. It just had "the Forgotten One", which was probably more so a reference to Starcraft's Zerg, rather than Lovecraft's Old Ones. But, the WC3 manual mentioned the Old Gods, tho we won't see them in game till WoW years later.

[ParanoiD84]

Ehh, I wouldn't jump right into conclusions. Just because I don't think the Warhammer writers can make guys in WoW that outclass what we currently have, that in itself doesn't mean much of anything. Reminder that the most of what you've given me is that the Chaos Gods can destroy multiple Universes, realities, and shit like that, yeah? The Jailer, if he gains all the keys, would instantly scale above that.

WoW isn't really a ripoff of 1 verse either. It's also taken things from Elder Scrolls, and LoTR (Hell, the Jailer and the Mawsworn are legit just 1 fuckin combination reference between Mordor, and Dante's Inferno's Hell).

"That's why wow needs warhammer authors to do it and you just admitted illidan novel was the best in explaining why the Legion was a threat and not a complete joke a novel that was written by a warhammer author so come again?" The Warhammer author also knows the lore of Warcraft, and understands it enough as to make sense of TBC, etc. Not EVERY Warhammer writer needs to pop into WoW, let's be real here. Warhammer has its own insane shit as it is.

"Remember when you said you know pretty much nothing at all about Warhammer? Yeah this is more you not knowing other ips other then wow and thinks wow's writing team makes the baddest and most op lore figures of all time lmao"

I actually got the top tiers of DC, Lovecraft, and Elder Scroll's much higher than WoW. I am claiming WoW's full of OP characters, but to say I know nothing of other IP's and say that I think WoW's characters are top tier is just being dishonest, really.

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Oh yeah, I can see #'s 1 and 3 now. #1 is talking about Cell. Clever. I thought the guy was talking about show synopsis' as a whole. Not just arcs.

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We're given a story and a power scale. Just not a name. The events our PC goes through in game is exactly what they go through in lore. The only differences is they don't share our name, and their zone/raid encounters are more separated. Meaning, the PC Alliance guy didn't do Ragefire, but the Horde guy did, ya know? But, the Alliance and Horde PC's went into Ny'alotha, and they went into Antorus, etc.

That's one of the problems lets talk the jailer he's gotta be the most boring and unispired villian of all times in any setting and that's one of the problems with the writing team in wow they cant make interesting and original villians.

Then we have the whole gameplay before lore in wow it does not matter one bit who they come up with as we already know we are gonna beat them, we never lose compared to lets say warhammer and 40k where the imperium loses tons of times how else are you gonna make the cosmic horrors of the universe feel like a threat? but warhammer is lore and tabletop before anything else and the writers also have hell of alot more freedom and experience in writing.

Black Library also have alot of amazing writers just look up people like Dan Abnett and many of them have been writing for warhammer for 30 years.

There is a reason people always make fun of wows lore and writing, especially these days with golden and team lol.

[TheFirstOnes]

This.
I'm sure almost everyone, if not all, is looking for coherent logical sense. I mean they seemed to try that with Anduin growing up and into his own. But the follow through was just nonexistent.

I still don't get how y'all think BfA and Cata made no logical sense. like, wot?

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See that's one of the problems lets talk the jailer he's gotta be the most boring and unispired villian of all times in any setting and that's one of the problems with the writing team in wow they cant make interesting and original villians.

Then we have the whole gameplay before lore in wow it does not matter one bit who they come up with as we already know we are gonna beat them, we never lose compared to lets say warhammer and 40k where the imperium loses tons of times how else are you gonna make the cosmic horrors of the universe feel like a threat? but warhammer is lore and tabletop before anything else and the writers also have hell of alot more freedom and experience in writing.

Black Library also have alot of amazing writers just look up people like Dan Abnett and many of them have been writing for warhammer for 30 years.

True, I will admit that Warhammer is far more risky and chaotic in its lore. The problem with WoW's scaling, especially regarding the Players is that we ALWAYS have to win, as it's part of the rules of an MMO. Not to mention that Ion stated that, in 8.3, that we're the main characters and that we're always supposed to stand against and beat these horrors, these powers. And, imo, that's boring. There comes a point where characters either become too power, or we just win so many times, that other threats don't feel threatening anymore.

Like, in 8.3, why should I be afraid of N'Zoth when me, my friends, and the Titan Spirits dismantled Argus, a weakened world soul that became the Death Titan VIA Sargeras amps and haxes? Sure, we don't have the Titans by our side, but it just doesn't feel as cool, ya know?

And with Zovaal being this supposed beyond Sargeras threat, why should I be afraid of the next threat that comes along? I already know we'll win. Doesn't matter if Zovaal DOES beat us in 9.1 (Which is likely going to be the case here, let's be honest with each other), I still know he's gonna fall. Whether we have to team up with the Pantheon of Life so could go full on Life and Death Vs the Jailer at Oribos, or something like that, it doesn't matter. He's not winning. It's predictable and boring. Sure, that in itself doesn't change power scaling. But, it does give the players a lesser sense of danger, and that in a way ruins the immersion.

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People talk about Me'dan being the biggest Mary Sue/Gary Stu type character, but like...

We could literally 1 shot him in that department.

And before I go on, a lot of our feats are based off Borrowed Power, as without it, we struggle to beat fuckin Nathanos of all people, but...with it, we're literally slapping Eternal Ones like fodder. But the Borrowed Power is not, in itself a Gary/Mary Stu/Sue esc factor. It's the way we get them that factors. Cause like...no matter wtf happens, we have the people of each zone, realm, etc, and we get awarded cause "OH, WE'RE THE ALL MIGHTY HEROES! WE NEVER LOSE! HERE IS YOUR LEGENDARY GEAR, AND ALL THAT". And while Thrall, or Varian have either been broken or have perished. We almost never change or don't give two shits, and when we do die, we don't die...ya know?

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Literal representation of the Players during the Arthas and Argus fights.

Hell, against Argus, Eonar was able to resurrect us because we were just too angry to die. No, literally...

[Wilfire]

The problem with SL is that everything in SL has been done better before.

An undead army? The Scourge was more terrifying and had a richer backstory.

Valkyrie knockoffs? The Val'kyr were more interesting and had a richer backstory.

Spirit world forest where dead animal gods dream? The Emerald Dream was more interesting and had a richer backstory.

Oh noes bad people get punished tortureporn vampires? The entirety of MoP and the Sha illustrated the consequences of being violent murderhobos much better and, once again, the Sha had a richer backstory than the Venthyr. Why the hell are we still fighting manifestations of pride if we beat pride with Shaohao and Norushen's help?

An impartial, impersonal, judgemental God? The Titans did it better and had a richer backstory.

A baddie who wants to break the universe? Sargeras did it better and had a richer backstory.

[DingDongKing]

We're given a story and a power scale. Just not a name. The events our PC goes through in game is exactly what they go through in lore. The only differences is they don't share our name, and their zone/raid encounters are more separated. Meaning, the PC Alliance guy didn't do Ragefire, but the Horde guy did, ya know? But, the Alliance and Horde PC's went into Ny'alotha, and they went into Antorus, etc.

I disagree on the semantics of it. By virtue of not having any 'names' or participation in the story beyond 'these champions/adventurers helped the lore characters', there's not much going on in that department. And all that aside, the bigger issue is that the story in the game isn't amazingly done because well...the developers don't really see it as anything much more than a helping hand for the gameplay. WoW isn't a story driven game, so the story will always take a backseat. And that's annoying tbh. But it's why I want an animated series that just does the story right and does it on its own terms. Sure, follow the general arcs seen in the games, but do a definitive version...kinda like chronicle has in book form.

[Soon-TM]

WoW isn't a story driven game.

I remember Ion saying exactly the opposite back in Legion. It doesn't seem to have worked exceptionally well though