WoW Necromancer Hero Class

[Shadowferal]

I just won't accept this class.
Why does every game need to have all the same classes?

...don't need no stinking bards either...

[Triceron]

Nothing is, really, and has been that way since TBC. Blood Elves being on the Horde is a massive stretch and was done for gameplay reasons. More recently, Blizzard added High Elf customization to both factions, which makes even less sense.

Lore is inherently constricting, and will not be followed if it gets in the way of the health of the game.

Agreed.

I'd say the only thing that lore has a place in is defining what races can be what classes, and even then it's an arbitrary constriction since they've been absolutely open to making conflicting combinations out of exceptions in the lore, such as Night Elf Mages or Goblin Shamans.

The lore is bent to the whim of the designers. It's an explanation for what gameplay decisions they make, simple as that.

[Tyrannica]

Blizz should recruit you!

[fathom81]

Blood magic needs its own class...and blood trolls allied race for horde, sanlayn for alliance

[Adamas102]

Find anyone with a "Necromancer" title in game and you're not going to find a Death Knight. You're going to find what I described orginally.

Irrelevant. Death Knights are necromancers regardless of whether you want to admit it or not. That's not to say they're the only TYPE of necromancer that exists. Blizzard themselves have a variety of necromancers across their games.

Maybe Blizzard will add a non-plate wearing necromancer style class to WoW at some point (same way you have priest and paladins that essentially wield the same powers), but they don't HAVE to because it's not a niche that NEEDS filling. Death Knights could comfortably remain as the only playable necromancer class forever.

[kenn9530]

You do know that warlocks also capture and consume the souls of the dead, right? They use it for summoning demons, creating healthstones and more. Why are warlocks "okay" but not necromancers? Sounds like an arbitrary exclusion, here.

warlocks can use the souls of demons so there is no morality issues, necromancer morality issues are the use of the dead and parts of the dead you know the whole point in being a necromancer.

Fel magic literally requires the blood of demons, and pretty much ALL warlocks in game besides the players or those affiliated with the two factions are evil. Players who choose Necrolord covenant are using necromancy or are aligning themselves with a covenant of necromancers. Fleshcraft, Deathborne, Unholy Nova....these are all spells based on necromancy.

there is no moral issues using demons or thier blood to increase power, not all notable warlocks are evil but all necromancers are so, any use of necromancy in the shadowlands is irrelevant as its a realm of the dead so it doesnt support having the necromancer class.

Our factions aren't bound to the laws of Dalaran, period.

Our player character classes aren't defined by good or evil, only servitude of the Alliance and Horde.

Have you considered that Blizzard had Necromancers as potential playable class in Wrath of the Lich King? How would this be possible if Dalaran was always in consideration? How did they 'fold the Necromancer and Runemaster concepts into the Death Knight' if they didn't first make a Necromancer class?

The laws of dalaran affect both factions as both factions have members in the council so stop talking BS about it not meaning anything to either faction as they are both integrated in the council, the council is the law in all areas of magic so what they say is followed. Dalaran could wipe out whatever they wanted as noone has more power than them.

[Triceron]

but they don't HAVE to because it's not a niche that NEEDS filling. Death Knights could comfortably remain as the only playable necromancer class forever.

Classes aren't added to fill niches.

Look at Demon Hunter. It was completely shoehorned into the game and only existed because of its unique identity, which contributed to its overwhelming popularity.

The class identity is the only thing that really matters. Gameplay in this game is pretty much homogenized and derivative, not as unique and diverse as we like to think of it as. We're not getting classes that diversify, we're getting classes that Blizzard deems worthy of building hype to sell more expansions. They operate on the rule of cool over any lore or gameplay niche.

If it were a gameplay diversity thing, then Tinkers should have been playable well before Demon Hunters got added to the game considering how diverse the potential themes and gameplay would have been compared to another Leather-wearing Dual Wielding DPS who also uses Fel magic.

- - - Updated - - -

warlocks can use the souls of demons so there is no morality issues, necromancer morality issues are the use of the dead and parts of the dead you know the whole point in being a necromancer.

If there is a morality issue then why do we have playable Death Knights with a spec dedicated to the spread of diseases, the desecration of corpses and raising minions from the dead? Are you basing morality on 'well they have other specs that don't do that so it's okay'? Turning a blind eye, so to speak?

I think morality is pointless if you're willing to turn a blind eye to a Rogue's Outlaw and Assassination specs simply because they have a Subtlety spec that is less blatant about it.

- - - Updated - - -

The laws of dalaran affect both factions as both factions have members in the council so stop talking BS about it not meaning anything to either faction as they are both integrated in the council, the council is the law in all areas of magic so what they say is followed. Dalaran could wipe out whatever they wanted as noone has more power than them.

In this world of fiction, the rule only applies to the non-player characters. This rule simply doesn't apply to Player Characters, and if it did then you could consider it a broken rule.

It was broken when they allowed Forsaken to join the Horde. It was broken when Death Knights were brought in as allies. It was broken when Warlocks openly used Necromancy in many of their early spells and were fighting alongside all our champions. It is broken right now with every class who chooses to pick Necrolord covenant.

What does Dalaran's council matter when it has zero effect on Player Classes?

[kenn9530]

If there is a morality issue then why do we have playable Death Knights with a spec dedicated to the spread of diseases, the desecration of corpses and raising minions from the dead? Are you basing morality on 'well they have other specs that don't do that so it's okay'? Turning a blind eye, so to speak?

I think morality is pointless if you're willing to turn a blind eye to a Rogue's Outlaw and Assassination specs simply because they have a Subtlety spec that is less blatant about it.

Deathknights didnt have a choice in the first place, also when they were freed from control what else were they going to do, its best to make use out of thousands of powerful soldiers and benefit the factions, so they actually made sense as they has regained the freewill they used to have and could choose what to do next.

A necromancer will never make any sense in WoW.

[Triceron]

Deathknights didnt have a choice in the first place, also when they were freed from control what else were they going to do, its best to make use out of thousands of powerful soldiers and benefit the factions, so they actually made sense as they has regained the freewill they used to have and could choose what to do next.

A necromancer will never make any sense in WoW.

You're saying it's okay to excuse the lack of morality when it comes to convenience.

That's exactly how Warlocks are portrayed.

That's exactly how Necromancers would too.

It makes sense as a means of a convenient tool to use against the faction's enemies. As I said, the Cult of the Damned serves one master. If that master ends up being Anduin in the future, then we have a Bolvar-leading-DK type of situation where the Cultists would be using their dark magic for the sake of fighting a greater enemy, using the corpses of their enemies to fuel their magic. What you consider evil and immoral would stem from the Alliance and Horde first for even tolerating and considering to 'best make use out of thousands of powerful soldiers'.

The moral issue you have is not with the DK itself, it's not with the Necromancer itself. It stems from the Alliance and Horde willing to tolerate and use them, despite the rules that Dalaran has in place. You're literally contradicting your own point about morality by acknowledging this as a matter of convenience over moral integrity.

If moral integrity were such a matter of importance, as Dalaran decrees, then there should be a zero tolerance policy on Fel and Necromantic magic across the board. This means no playable Warlocks or Death Knights, period. No matters of convenience.

That the Alliance and Horde openly recognize both of these classes makes your argument completely moot. The Alliance and Horde WILL use these classes when it is convenient, and that is a part of the lore. Thrall even openly acknowledges that there are Warlocks residing in Orgrimmar since Vanilla.

If moral integrity has not gotten in the way of playable Death Knights and Warlocks, then it has no relevance to Necromancers. This is just a case where you're personally uncomfortable with the concept because it goes against what you personally consider as a moral standard that the Alliance and Horde upkeeps (based on Dalarans policies), even though you openly acknowledge that there is an absolute moral grey-zone which allows them to employ dark magic users such as Warlocks and Death Knights. That moral grey zone is not exclusive to Warlocks and Death Knights. It's already wide open to Dark Rangers as well, considering we have a scene in post-BFA content showing Calia and Lilian Voss bringing them back into the Forsaken.

Calia herself is a product of yet-to-be-fully-explained light-based 'Necromancy', which we know more of now with Shadowlands explaining that souls can be intercepted through different types of magic. There is a moral implication there as well that may need to be discussed in the future; such as the exploitation or abuse of the Light to potentially force the dead back into life. We already saw hints of this between Xera forcing the light on Illidan. As I'm showing here, moral implications are not exclusive to types of magic, but also to how they are used. We simply haven't seen enough 'abuse' of Light Magic to consider it taboo. Same can be said of Void magic's mental manipulation, though it's much less present in the Alliance and Horde lore so it's just never brought up. Dalaran's edict pertains specifically to Necromancy and Fel because we have clear examples of the corruption that has lead from these magics. We haven't seen 'Light corruption' yet, but we know for a fact that this type of zealotry exists and is yet to be explored.

[kenn9530]

You're saying it's okay to excuse the lack of morality when it comes to convenience.

That's exactly how Warlocks are portrayed.

That's exactly how Necromancers would too.

It makes sense as a means of a convenient tool to use against the faction's enemies. As I said, the Cult of the Damned serves one master. If that master ends up being Anduin in the future, then we have a Bolvar-leading-DK type of situation where the Cultists would be using their dark magic for the sake of fighting a greater enemy, using the corpses of their enemies to fuel their magic. What you consider evil and immoral would stem from the Alliance and Horde first for even tolerating and considering to 'best make use out of thousands of powerful soldiers'.

The moral issue you have is not with the DK itself, it's not with the Necromancer itself. It stems from the Alliance and Horde willing to tolerate and use them, despite the rules that Dalaran has in place. You're literally contradicting your own point about morality by acknowledging this as a matter of convenience over moral integrity.

The warlock class doesnt even do anything thats even remotely questionable, the player can easily manage demons with no issues and what little fel magic warlocks actually use, warlocks had only be considered dangerous if they were unable to manage the power they controlled and it bring in no moral issues at all.

The problem is in the fundamental of what a necromancer is and it doesnt fit in with WoW society or the lore, every single instance involving a necromancer in WoW has been deaths of thousands, there is no good way to desecrate corpses and spread plaques, deathknights only use diseases which can easily be cured if it spread.

Necromancer will never be a class, i doubt any new class will be added there are already way too many at 36 different specs and only 20 mythic raid slots, a new class would push players favourite classes out of even having a raid spot.

[Katchii]

Its how the magic is used that matters, there is no way at all to use necromancy magic that would fit in any civilized society and be acceptable.

That's the same logic used against Warlocks and Death Knights.

There's nothing preventing a Necromancer from using their "evil" magic to defend Azeroth, their faction and their friends. If a Death Knight can do it, they can do it.

- - - Updated - - -

No magic is evil its how its used and thats backed up by the lore, but there is no way to use necromancy that isnt in an evil way, it is also outlawed by the council of dalaran.

Warlocks are outlawed by them too....

[Triceron]

The warlock class doesnt even do anything thats even remotely questionable, the player can easily manage demons with no issues and what little fel magic warlocks actually use, warlocks had only be considered dangerous if they were unable to manage the power they controlled and it bring in no moral issues at all.

Dealing with fel magic is a moral issue, which is banned by Dalaran as well.

There is no difference between desecrating corpses or summoning demons if we're talking about Dalaran's laws; there is a zero-tolerance policy for both. What you're employing here is a double-standard argument that excuses Warlocks for 'not doing anything questionable' while using Dalaran to enforce against the use of any and all types of dark Magic.

The problem is in the fundamental of what a necromancer is and it doesnt fit in with WoW society or the lore, every single instance involving a necromancer in WoW has been deaths of thousands, there is no good way to desecrate corpses and spread plaques, deathknights only use diseases which can easily be cured if it spread.

This sounds more like your subjective view though, considering this also applies to every Warlock. There are zero heroic Warlock characters in the game, and our own player characters reside outside of the lore and are even typified as power-hungry sorcerers.

Our player classes are not exclusive to being good and heroic. Morality is user-generated rather than lore-generated. Our character classes are not bound to their origins; you can choose to play as a morally questionable Paladin who kills children and uses Necromancy, or as a Death Knight who exclusively levels up through Herbalism. Our characters exist outside of the lore.

That you're trying to excuse away moral implications in the lore through technicality simply tells me you have a framework that you've built in your own mind on how the world *should* operate, even though the lore doesn't explicitly outline the nature of these situations. You say DK's are okay to use diseases because they can be easily cured? So can you definitely tell me that Dalaran is okay with DK's using their Necromancy to spread Plagues because they can be cured? No, you can't. You've completely head-canoned this explanation.

Dalaran has a zero-tolerance policy towards Necromancy. And if your own argument extends Dalaran's policies to the Alliance and the Horde, then you need to consider what actual lore reasons are in place for DK's that explictly use Necromancy to be allowed to serve under their banners.

Necromancer will never be a class, i doubt any new class will be added there are already way too many at 36 different specs and only 20 mythic raid slots, a new class would push players favourite classes out of even having a raid spot.

If we're talking on a Design level, then yes I can agree.

There are plenty of other potential classes to explore over the Necromancer, and much of its themes are already in the DK which prove suitable to move forward on.

We may not *need* a Necromancer, but that isn't the same as arguing that they can't exist because of Moral Implications when we have multiple classes that are not affected by this limitation.

If you're adamant on using Dalaran's policies as a framework for your argument, you can not turn blind eye when it comes to Warlocks and Death Knights openly using Fel magic and Necromancy on the basis that 'they aren't doing anything questionable' when their entire classes revolve around the use of dark magic.

[kenn9530]

That's the same logic used against Warlocks and Death Knights.

There's nothing preventing a Necromancer from using their "evil" magic to defend Azeroth, their faction and their friends. If a Death Knight can do it, they can do it.

- - - Updated - - -



Warlocks are outlawed by them too....

If it means using the dead necromany is never acceptable and there is not even one case of a good necromacer, warlocks are not outlawed by dalaran only necromancy

snip

there is only one magic outlawed by dalaran and thats necromancy, the others are advised not to be practised due to the negative effects, there is a difference between demons and using bodies on mortals, all demons are evil so using them is no problem with using them as a source of power.

necromancy is completely different it uses bodies of mortals and thier souls causing untold sufferring, so it can never be accepted.

[Triceron]

If it means using the dead necromany is never acceptable and there is not even one case of a good necromacer, warlocks are not outlawed by dalaran only necromancy



there is only one magic outlawed by dalaran and thats necromancy, the others are advised not to be practised due to the negative effects, there is a difference between demons and using bodies on mortals, all demons are evil so using them is no problem with using them as a source of power.

necromancy is completely different it uses bodies of mortals and thier souls causing untold sufferring, so it can never be accepted.

Dalaran attempts to stifle the studies of fel magics and necromancy. Despite the superior power of fel magic which threatened to overshadow established practices, students were taught about practicality over what is achievable. Fel's efficiency is commonly balked for being unstable and "evil".[20] The official teachings of the Kirin Tor are that demonology is to be eschewed, avoided, and abjured. Any attempt to summon demons are to be found out and stopped at once, and those involved are to be expelled, or worse

- The Last Guardian

- - - Updated - - -

there is only one magic outlawed by dalaran and thats necromancy, the others are advised not to be practised due to the negative effects, there is a difference between demons and using bodies on mortals, all demons are evil so using them is no problem with using them as a source of power.

necromancy is completely different it uses bodies of mortals and thier souls causing untold sufferring, so it can never be accepted.

Show me a source where only Necromancy is outlawed and not Fel magic.

Where are you getting your lore from?

Fel magic is absolutely banned by Dalaran, and is why you don't see Warlocks formally positioned in Dalaran during Wrath and Legion. They always show up in secrecy or in the Dalaran Sewers with other seedy members of society.

Both Necromancy and Fel Magic are treated the same by Dalaran. There is no exemption for one or the other.

[Shadowferal]

Lets see...we'll just do this deathknight necromancer... VOILA!

[kenn9530]

snip

Even what you just quoted actually goes against what your trying to state, other magic is discouraged but necromancy has been stated as being illegal.

I get my lore from the actual game since there is a book in dalaran that states necromancy as being illegal, the other magics are not specifically stated to be outlawed, just more advised not to practice certain magic.

[Triceron]

Even what you just quoted actually goes against what your trying to state, other magic is discouraged but necromancy has been stated as being illegal.

I get my lore from the actual game since there is a book in dalaran that states necromancy as being illegal, the other magics are not specifically stated to be outlawed, just more advised not to practice certain magic.

That book is actually outdated lore considering it refers to Necromancy as an ARCANE school of magic.

You're operating an argument that is sourced from an old and irrelevant source while completely ignoring that both Fel and Necromantic magic are both banned by Dalaran.

And no, the lore states that summoning demons is bannable or worse. The Warlock is the defacto demon-summoner, and traditionally has demon summons for every spec. There is no case where you can argue that Warlocks are excempt while Necromancy is the only banned magic type; both types have been banned. If it wasn't banned then there's no reason Warlocks don't appear out in the open in Dalaran.

But this argument is getting increasingly circular. If you choose to believe Necromancers are banned and Warlocks are not, then that is your choice. Either way, it has no impact on the fact that Blizzard will choose to do whatever they wish with the game, and that ultimately I don't think they would pursue a Necromancer class outside of adding them as a Class Skin in the future. I don't give Blizzard any credit for adhering to the lore; the writers of the lore don't interact with the game designers as much as we expect.

[Puxycat]

https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...a-class-in-WoW

This is the same thing years later. Necromancer and Death Knight are very very very huge different classes please don't make me please don't make me say paladin and priest oh here we go i just did.
@Shadowferal

And Necromancer WILL be the next hero class and do you know why? Don't even need to make it complicated because Necromancer sells.

[Katchii]

If it means using the dead necromany is never acceptable and there is not even one case of a good necromacer, warlocks are not outlawed by dalaran only necromancy

Cool, I don't think this is accurate, but let's assume it is.

How does that affect people who don't live in or are subjects of Dalaran? I don't see them going after Death Knights, who practice necromancy.

How does this prevent or impact the Necromancer class from being a possibility?

[Amunrasonther]

Irrelevant. Death Knights are necromancers regardless of whether you want to admit it or not. That's not to say they're the only TYPE of necromancer that exists. Blizzard themselves have a variety of necromancers across their games.

Maybe Blizzard will add a non-plate wearing necromancer style class to WoW at some point (same way you have priest and paladins that essentially wield the same powers), but they don't HAVE to because it's not a niche that NEEDS filling. Death Knights could comfortably remain as the only playable necromancer class forever.

Death Knights, Necromancers, and Dark Rangers are all classes that use necromancy. They can all be considered "necromancers" but only one is truly the archetype that everyone thinks and wants when they imagine a Necromancer. WoW never needs a new class. There are currently plenty. The whole point of a new class is to build hype and add features.

Blizz should recruit you!

Thank you!!

But the Kirin Tor rules only Dalaran. They have no jurisdiction outside their city. So they cannot go after the necromancers because they're not in Dalaran. Evidence of that is: they haven't gone against the necromancers at all, now have they?

This. I don't know why people are getting so hung up about Dalaran as if it matters. Dalaran is an independent nation. It's a city of mages and acts like a giant school. It has no power over the factions.

https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...a-class-in-WoW

This is the same thing years later. Necromancer and Death Knight are very very very huge different classes please don't make me please don't make me say paladin and priest oh here we go i just did.
@Shadowferal

And Necromancer WILL be the next hero class and do you know why? Don't even need to make it complicated because Necromancer sells.

From your lips to the gods' ears!

@kenn9530 You keep ignoring the implications of Anduin. The Horde through Sylvanas and the Forsaken have always embraced the idea of Necromancers. Until now, there's never been a possible necromantic connection within the Alliance.