How do people feel about flying in previous expansions?

[Sondrelk]

Idk what's so bad about comparing an open world game to Earth, which is...a world for people to explore. If people want to fly to places faster, let them. No idea why this means I should go outside more. I'm pretty sure I go outside a lot, thanks.

You're making this a way bigger issue than it needs to be. Not everyone is satisfied with being grounded. Players should have a choice, and it is their right to choose whether they should want to fly or not. That's why it's an MMORPG. It's about the community, and when you take away the Players ability to play the game the way they want to play it, then that will cause a major upset.

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And, in return, that will hurt Blizzard's sales.

WoW is also a game, not real life. We voluntarily subject ourselves to it because it is supposed to be fun and interesting.

Secondly, not all choice is good in games. As have been pointed out, the choice of bying infinite gear would be terrible for the game. A choice to instakill raid bosses would be bad for the game. A choice to skip all levelling and get straight to a free kill of the final boss on Mythic would be bad for the game.

Flying in WoW is actively detrimental to its stated intent to be an MMO. You can barely see players as they fly by outside of range of vision, you don't have chance encounters on frequently travelled paths as they are all in the air. Player economy takes a massive hit as convenience items are superseded by flying, same with player abilities.

The big thing here is that you don't care about outdoor content, so please for the love of god stop trying to ruin it for those that do jusst so you can avoid it even harder. Flying is among the worst offenders for the lack of good outdoor content, and I know you couldnt care less, but there are actually those that do want it.

[Snufflupagus]

Idk what's so bad about comparing an open world game to Earth, which is...a world for people to explore. If people want to fly to places faster, let them. No idea why this means I should go outside more. I'm pretty sure I go outside a lot, thanks.

You're making this a way bigger issue than it needs to be. Not everyone is satisfied with being grounded. Players should have a choice, and it is their right to choose whether they should want to fly or not. That's why it's an MMORPG. It's about the community, and when you take away the Players ability to play the game the way they want to play it, then that will cause a major upset.

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And, in return, that will hurt Blizzard's sales.

I’m not even gonna engage on the difference between exploring the real world and a video game, this is too comical. What’s next, you’re gonna compare eating for well fed buffs to going to a restaurant?

To your second point, I might within the logic you are deploying respond:

“Not everyone is satisfied with being undergeared. Players should have a choice, and their right to choose whether they should want to be mythic geared or not.”

The only difference between the “choice” of flying and the “choice” of mythic gear being available from a vendor is that the terrible decision of enabling flying has already been put in the game.

You’re not seeing how inane this line of argument is?

All a game is—literally all that any game is—is a set of rules with graphics laid on top of it. A set of rules. That is, restrictions on choice. Every game is the experience of pursuing goals within a set of restrictions. Choice is neither a “right” nor something that is universally or consistently good. It behooves us to demonstrate why any given “choice” (by which in this case you mean “immunity to the rules”) is a good thing.

So far, you have suggested that “I don’t like moving around the open world” is a good reason for the rules to be changed such that you can effectively flyhack. I have countered by observing that being in the open world is the whole point of the game, so if you don’t like it you should go play Counterstrike. You have now repeated your inane position without progressing for several posts. Do you have a justification for flying being good beyond “I like it”? I’d like to be able to have every talent on every row if I wanted it, but that wouldn’t make WoW a better game.

[Burneracc]

People do enormous amount of mental gymnastics to condemn flying as something not needed/ruining the game, whatever, and how Blizzard is right to put it behind a half a year timegate. They usually have no counterargument once you mention Wrath of the Lich King - one of the best expansions, where you could start flying as early as lvl 77. You definetely didn't hear b/s like "flying ruins the way we want players to experience the game". I am the player and I want to choose how to experience game myself, not being handicapped because Ion/or some other dev guy thinks he knows better than me.

[Sondrelk]

People do enormous amount of mental gymnastics to condemn flying as something not needed/ruining the game, whatever, and how Blizzard is right to put it behind a half a year timegate. They usually have no counterargument once you mention Wrath of the Lich King - one of the best expansions, where you could start flying as early as lvl 77. You definetely didn't hear b/s like "flying ruins the way we want players to experience the game". I am the player and I want to choose how to experience game myself, not being handicapped because Ion/or some other dev guy thinks he knows better than me.

We have to engage in some light gymnastics because pro-flying people refuse to concede on anything because they deem their argument of flying being good because it lets them skip content to be infallible.

The easiest argument to make is that flying is bad because it devalues open world content, content that those who want flying don't want to engage in regardless.

The argument of not giving the player the freedom to experience the game the way they deem fit is absolutely a valid one. The game developers can absolutely dictate that certain avenues are not accepted. Would oyu make the same argument if oyu just wanted to instakill raidbosses on mythic just because that is how you want ot experience the game?

[TheFirstOnes]

WoW is also a game, not real life. We voluntarily subject ourselves to it because it is supposed to be fun and interesting.

Secondly, not all choice is good in games. As have been pointed out, the choice of bying infinite gear would be terrible for the game. A choice to instakill raid bosses would be bad for the game. A choice to skip all levelling and get straight to a free kill of the final boss on Mythic would be bad for the game.

Flying in WoW is actively detrimental to its stated intent to be an MMO. You can barely see players as they fly by outside of range of vision, you don't have chance encounters on frequently travelled paths as they are all in the air. Player economy takes a massive hit as convenience items are superseded by flying, same with player abilities.

The big thing here is that you don't care about outdoor content, so please for the love of god stop trying to ruin it for those that do jusst so you can avoid it even harder. Flying is among the worst offenders for the lack of good outdoor content, and I know you couldnt care less, but there are actually those that do want it.

No, I care about the outdoor content. Hell, I downright agree that players should enjoy the world before anything like flying occurs. However, some people want to get the content done faster, and that's not too big an issue now, is it? Also, what do you mean player activity is negated from flying? I've seen a lot of people communicate, even with flight.

"Secondly, not all choice is good in games. As have been pointed out, the choice of bying infinite gear would be terrible for the game. A choice to instakill raid bosses would be bad for the game. A choice to skip all levelling and get straight to a free kill of the final boss on Mythic would be bad for the game."

Yeah, but we're talking about flight here. The ability to fly your own mount and go anywhere you want is not a game breaker. At most, it helps you get through content faster VIA travelling to the WQ, regular quest location, or the raid/dungeon instance faster, but that's it. No idea why you're trying to compare it to cheats such as "buying infinite gear" or "instakilling a boss".

[Snufflupagus]

People do enormous amount of mental gymnastics to condemn flying as something not needed/ruining the game, whatever, and how Blizzard is right to put it behind a half a year timegate. They usually have no counterargument once you mention Wrath of the Lich King - one of the best expansions, where you could start flying as early as lvl 77. You definetely didn't hear b/s like "flying ruins the way we want players to experience the game".

Burning Crusade was also a very good expansion, and also had flying.

Nonetheless, correlation is not the same as causation.

- WotLK introduced LFG, which is universally recognised as a Bad Thing for the open world MMORPG game that WoW once was.
- WotLK had ToC, universally recognised as a terrible raid.
- WotLK had massive talent trees, which the crowd who like LFG thinks are bad for the game.

Good expansions can and do have bad things; WotLK was a good expansion despite having flying at 77.

(Also note I have been saying flying is bad literally since TBC was announced).

I am the player and I want to choose how to experience game myself, not being handicapped because Ion/or some other dev guy thinks he knows better than me.

You don’t get to, you never have got to, and you couldn’t even if someone wanted to let you decide “how to experience the game”. The game is a set experience, and you can decide whether to experience it or not. This discourse of “deciding how to experience” the game is absurd. You will sit at a keyboard and stare at a screen and work within the rules set by devs who know better than you, or you will not.

As we have now discussed ad nauseam, the limit on “experiencing the game” by flyhacking over it is comparable to “experiencing the game” by I WIN button-ing mythic bosses and arena matches. It would make the game crap, so it is removed.

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"Secondly, not all choice is good in games. As have been pointed out, the choice of bying infinite gear would be terrible for the game. A choice to instakill raid bosses would be bad for the game. A choice to skip all levelling and get straight to a free kill of the final boss on Mythic would be bad for the game."

Yeah, but we're talking about flight here. The ability to fly your own mount and go anywhere you want is not a game breaker. At most, it helps you get through content faster VIA travelling to the WQ, regular quest location, or the raid/dungeon instance faster, but that's it. No idea why you're trying to compare it to cheats such as "buying infinite gear" or "instakilling a boss".

Should players have access to a slider that allows them to move up to 1000% faster so they can complete the content more quickly?

Should players have access to an ability that lets them enter coordinates and teleport instantly to that spot in order to complete content more quickly?

Should players have access to an infinite no cooldown cheat death so they never have to die so they can complete content more quickly?

Why is “complete content more quickly” a good thing or a goal? What element of good game design does “get through it fast” fulfill?

[TheFirstOnes]

Speed boosts exist, so sure? People in Bastion have teleports. No cheat death isn't what we're talking about, and completing content quicker allows for chores such as Renown not to be as repetitive or annoying. So that, once you're done with that shit, you can finally play the game, go to raids, and chat with your friends.

[Snufflupagus]

Speed boosts exist, so sure? People in Bastion have teleports. No cheat death isn't what we're talking about, and completing content quicker allows for chores such as Renown not to be as repetitive or annoying. So that, once you're done with that shit, you can finally play the game, go to raids, and chat with your friends.

So then your problem is with chores being boring to do and not involving your friends, not the lack of flying. I agree with you: character upkeep should be more interesting and engaging. I think we should advocate for that and solve the problem of 90% of this game being dull as oats, rather than the bandaid of flyhacking through the boring parts.

(And I think removing flight would be a good first step toward forcing the devs to start thinking about ways to make the general game more engaging).

[Sondrelk]

No, I care about the outdoor content. Hell, I downright agree that players should enjoy the world before anything like flying occurs. However, some people want to get the content done faster, and that's not too big an issue now, is it? Also, what do you mean player activity is negated from flying? I've seen a lot of people communicate, even with flight.

"Secondly, not all choice is good in games. As have been pointed out, the choice of bying infinite gear would be terrible for the game. A choice to instakill raid bosses would be bad for the game. A choice to skip all levelling and get straight to a free kill of the final boss on Mythic would be bad for the game."

Yeah, but we're talking about flight here. The ability to fly your own mount and go anywhere you want is not a game breaker. At most, it helps you get through content faster VIA travelling to the WQ, regular quest location, or the raid/dungeon instance faster, but that's it. No idea why you're trying to compare it to cheats such as "buying infinite gear" or "instakilling a boss".

I am comparing it to buying infinite gear and instakilling bosses because it is similarly removing a part of the game. It isnt adding an extra dimension to it, or changing it, it is straight up removing it.
You mention only making it available after the content iss deprecated, and while it is definitely far better than having it in current content it still cheapens the experience. Imagine for instance if old raids didnt require any effort beyond getting to the raid entrance, you would simply be given the cache of loot when you entered. It wouldnt give you anything you couldnt already get normally, but it would massively cheapen the experience if you got something for no effort instead of the bare minimum.

Also, I want you to consider that WoW whether you like it or not has designed itself around enviromental obstacles. If a wall is somewhere then you have to find a way around it, if you fall down a cliff then you have to get back up, if an elite is in the way then you have to either kill it or sneak around it.
Take all these small moments scattered across the game that impacts it to varying degrees and then consider how giving you the option to skip all of it isnt game breaking.

In pretty much any other game the kind of flying given to the player in WoW would be absolutely game-breaking, even sandbox games modelled on pure catharsis like GTA or Just Cause doesnt give you flying this versatile and powerful, even they have an understanding that you cant simply give the player the option to take off from anywhere at no cost, much less give them the kind of flight that allows you to AFK anywhere.

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So then your problem is with chores being boring to do and not involving your friends, not the lack of flying. I agree with you: character upkeep should be more interesting and engaging. I think we should advocate for that and solve the problem of 90% of this game being dull as oats, rather than the bandaid of flyhacking through the boring parts.

(And I think removing flight would be a good first step toward forcing the devs to start thinking about ways to make the general game more engaging).

Honestly, the abscence of flying making the game better has been proven without a shred of doubt by this point. The quality and engagement shown in non-instanced content was good in Vanilla, then pretty much disappeared from TBC to MoP, then after the travesty that was WoD appeared back in Legion.

Zones now have things like jumping puzzles, hidden secrets, more and varied ways of traversing the landscape, zones designed with more detail.

The absence of flying making the zones better has alreayd been proven I would say.

[Aristai1723]

Should people be able to focus on the content they like? Kind of yes after the game has been out for a while. I like experiencing the world during leveling but I believe the game would be better if flying was available from the start maybe locked behind some grind that involves a lot of the beautifully crafted world.

First patch always goes away someday and the majority of the past expansions had flying turned on. Worst for me was Cata where we could fly like the whole time. Flying everything longer than your mount racing for quest objectives was stupid.

[Snufflupagus]

Honestly, the abscence of flying making the game better has been proven without a shred of doubt by this point. The quality and engagement shown in non-instanced content was good in Vanilla, then pretty much disappeared from TBC to MoP, then after the travesty that was WoD appeared back in Legion.

Zones now have things like jumping puzzles, hidden secrets, more and varied ways of traversing the landscape, zones designed with more detail.

The absence of flying making the zones better has alreayd been proven I would say.

It certainly can make the zones better. I think that has been amply demonstrated. I'm not sure that we have so far seen that it does.

HighlordJohnstone and others have observed that recent expansions (I haven't yet played Shadowlands, but Legion was certainly terrible for this) have been filled with zones that feel horrible: very little free and open movement; navigation not immediately clear or actually downright difficult; Z-axis subzones and bits of environmental design at every turn that make just getting from A to B a real ballache. I think he and others are completely right that zones such as Nazjatar and Val'sharah nightmares to get around, and I can understand why you'd just want to get on a flying mount and blast over it instead. I don't think you should or that it should even be an option, but I can see why that's how people feel.

Secrets and jumping puzzles are cool and I'm glad they're being added, but I do think that flying or not the actual design of zones has declined across the expansions since MoP. Warlords was mostly okay but I remember having some frustration even then with... I think Nagrand? My memory is hazy on that one.

When I think about the best zones in terms of design rather than quests and content I almost always come back to Vanilla-through-Cataclysm zones... Maybe Krasarang Wilds and Spires of Arak. I think traversability, tone, mood, feel are all important (and none of those factors operate when you're flying over something). Wide open spaces feel more real, so Ashenvale despite its crummy graphics had far more verisimilitude in my mind than cramped, contorted Val'sharah.

My point is that making zones better doesn't start and end with removing flight. Flightless zones can be garbage too, as we have seen with the last few expansions, but there's really no impetus to make zones good if flight is in the game.

[Burneracc]

We have to engage in some light gymnastics because pro-flying people refuse to concede on anything because they deem their argument of flying being good because it lets them skip content to be infallible.

The easiest argument to make is that flying is bad because it devalues open world content, content that those who want flying don't want to engage in regardless.

The argument of not giving the player the freedom to experience the game the way they deem fit is absolutely a valid one. The game developers can absolutely dictate that certain avenues are not accepted. Would oyu make the same argument if oyu just wanted to instakill raidbosses on mythic just because that is how you want ot experience the game?

How is flying devaluing world content? Are you implying that if other used flying and you chose to engage in the great content of terrain navigating you somehow would feel that what you're doing is less valuable? So what you really saying is you are ready to suffer through no flying as long as other people suffer as well?

Also comparing flying which has been part of this game since 2nd expansion to "insta killing bosses" is all fun but I don't see this overblown comparisson as a counterargument to flying at all.

You don’t get to, you never have got to, and you couldn’t even if someone wanted to let you decide “how to experience the game”. The game is a set experience, and you can decide whether to experience it or not. This discourse of “deciding how to experience” the game is absurd. You will sit at a keyboard and stare at a screen and work within the rules set by devs who know better than you, or you will not.

As we have now discussed ad nauseam, the limit on “experiencing the game” by flyhacking over it is comparable to “experiencing the game” by I WIN button-ing mythic bosses and arena matches. It would make the game crap, so it is removed.

So your answer is basically "fuck you, the devs know better than you, take it or leave it"? That's the anti-player approach that made WoW a massive dumphole that it is right now, unfortunately. I strongly believe game creators should strive to give options to players, not restrict them. That way people could have had flying painlessly, and those guys that get a kick out of wasting enormous amounts of time trying to navigate terrain (because finding a narrow path to that damn mountaintop is such a quality content) could keep doing that!

As for your point about WoTLK being good "despite" flying, wouldn't you agree then that flying neither makes an expansion good nor bad, so why not keep it for player's choice? Since we have clear examples in BC and WoTLK that flying didn't cause massive player exodus.

[Lei]

How is flying devaluing world content? Are you implying that if other used flying and you chose to engage in the great content of terrain navigating you somehow would feel that what you're doing is less valuable? So what you really saying is you are ready to suffer through no flying as long as other people suffer as well?

Also comparing flying which has been part of this game since 2nd expansion to "insta killing bosses" is all fun but I don't see this overblown comparisson as a counterargument to flying at all.

Remember when people used to joke with "if flying helps you skip anything, then they might as well should limit ground mounts"?
And then now we got the Maw.

..."and running"
And Torghast.

[Tziva]

I personally think that unlocking the current content's flying should automatically include all prior expansions. No one should have to go back and play obsolete content just to make it slightly easier to quest there on alts or do achievements or whatever.

[Dhrizzle]

I personally think that unlocking the current content's flying should automatically include all prior expansions. No one should have to go back and play obsolete content just to make it slightly easier to quest there on alts or do achievements or whatever.

I might have already mentioned this, but I think that once a new expansion comes out the previous one should have flight restrictions lifted, or at least the expansion after which would put it in line with when we get to easily solo old raids. This is probably more important now that levelling is tied to timewalking as not being able to fly simply means that some expansions will be ignored in favour of an easier levelling experience.

[Tziva]

I might have already mentioned this, but I think that once a new expansion comes out the previous one should have flight restrictions lifted, or at least the expansion after which would put it in line with when we get to easily solo old raids. This is probably more important now that levelling is tied to timewalking as not being able to fly simply means that some expansions will be ignored in favour of an easier levelling experience.

Yeah, that's fine with me too, I just think it's fucking stupid to make people jump through hoops in outdated content just to have a quality of life improvement there on alts or whatever. Your friend who skipped an expansion should not be stuck hoofing it when you go back for an achievement run.

(and I say this as someone who has unlocked flying EVERY expansion as current content)

[Weeps]

As someone who likes having all classes maxed per expansion (usually the last year of expansion), flying is orgiastic.

[Shiekyerbooty]

All these people saying flying degrades levelling or questing are full of BS...

We we never allowed to fly until max level anyway, so the majority of the story and questing was done before you got to fly...

what was left after that ? .... Daily's....

OMG The integrity of the game is ruined because people can fly to their daily's

[Snufflupagus]

So your answer is basically "fuck you, the devs know better than you, take it or leave it"?

Well... Essentially, and with qualifications... yes.

That's the anti-player approach that made WoW a massive dumphole that it is right now, unfortunately.

Nah.

"Anti-player approach"? Don't be ridiculous. WoW development over time has strictly increased player agency and convenience.

Flight. Heroic dungeons so you have something to do at max level if you don't have time for raiding. LFG. Multiple raid sizes and difficulties so people with no friends can still see content. Transmogrification so players can look however they want. Flight in the entire world. LFR. Flexible raiding so it's even easier to form raids and you have even more of your vaunted but misguided quote-unquote "choice". Account-wide this, account-wide that, account-wide the next thing. Choosing which expansion to quest in. Crunching the amount of XP needed to level up every ten minutes. Dual spec. Multispec. Respec from tomes so you don't have to go back to town. Gear that swaps stats with your spec so you don't have to carry multiple sets. Removal of PvP stats so you can swap game mode at will. Scaling so you don't get rekt by people who overgear you. Mythic+ so you don't have to raid at all if you don't want to. Removing scaling so you can rekt undergeared people because you kept getting rekt when there was scaling because you suck and that was awkward.

Every step of every expansion WoW development has done nothing but make the game more convenient and give players more "choice" and more agency. Complaining about some fantasy "anti-player approach" is asinine. Don't be silly.

In point of fact, WoW development was least convenient and limited choice and agency the most in Classic. It continued to do so but a little less in Burning Crusade. In (early) Wrath it was still pretty restrictive. By the end of Wrath and then by Cataclysm, restrictions were dropping pretty fast and since then they've have been going down like flies. I think there's a strong statistical argument to be made that--with a little lag time--WoW loses subscribers as it removes restrictions.

I strongly believe game creators should strive to give options to players, not restrict them.

Then play Minecraft. You are not understanding, in this post, the fundamentals of what a game is. Do you whine that Monopoly "restricts your choices" too much? Or Age of Empires II because you can't recruit scouts as the Aztecs? Or Dark Souls because you can't... well, fly? What you are describing is a sandbox game. As we have discussed, all a game is, is a set of rules with graphics. What are rules? Restrictions. You are paying $14.99 a month for Blizzard's restrictions and Blizzard's graphics. Complaining about Blizzard restricting you is puerile. The whole point of World of Warcraft and every other game in the universe is that it restricts you, and you find ways to overcome the challenges it poses within the restrictions it sets.

To demonstrate, again, why your position doesn't make any sense: imagine WoW with no restrictions. Any race can be any class, as people are so happy to bandy around. Anyone can group with anyone. Anyone can attack anyone. Anyone can cast any ability from any class. Anyone can type a slash command and move at whatever multiplier of base speed they want. Anyone can slash-command as much damage as they want. Anyone can slash-command create any item with whatever stats they want. Anyone can slash-command teleport anywhere they want. How much fun would that be? You could get your chores done so fast, and clear every raid in seconds!

It wouldn't be. It would be absurd. It wouldn't be worth playing. You can't seriously think that a no longer "anti-player", restriction-free version of WoW would be the best possible incarnation of the game. Restrictions are the whole point, so arguing this ridiculous line of "well restriction are bad so let me fly becuase muh choice" doesn't make any sense. I would suggest that if you drop it, and come up with an actually worthwhile argument for flying, maybe the devs will listen and make a change to the current model!

(If you can. I suspect you can't, because I'm pretty sure flying is a terrible mechanic that adds nothing and ruins the game, but perhaps you can come up with an argument that demonstrates why flying is good and I'll change my view).

That way people could have had flying painlessly, and those guys that get a kick out of wasting enormous amounts of time trying to navigate terrain (because finding a narrow path to that damn mountaintop is such a quality content) could keep doing that!

I don't think I need to engage with this point, it's been covered innumerable times.

As for your point about WoTLK being good "despite" flying, wouldn't you agree then that flying neither makes an expansion good nor bad, so why not keep it for player's choice? Since we have clear examples in BC and WoTLK that flying didn't cause massive player exodus.

Well, no, because that's not how logic works. "This bad thing does not completely ruin everything around it, therefore it's actually a good thing!" doesn't make sense.

I would agree that correlation does not equate to causation: flying being in an expansion that is good does not also make flying good. Flying being in an expansion that is bad does not make flying bad.

Flying being bad is not a big enough mechanic to single-handedly ruin an expansion. The effect of flying on the game is subtler than that, like the effect of other small bad features like LFG and built-in quest tracking. It has, however, ruined the game slowly and steadily over the long term.

[Whitedragon]

Personally I think WotLK did it best, you level through a few zones on foot and none of them are overly hard to navigate, the last few zones have flying in mind so you can build more 3D play spaces. While it never was really used for anything practical, I always loved the extra mobs in ICC, it made it look like Arthas really did have an army, not just a small chunk of mobs sprinkled here and there.

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I would agree that correlation does not equate to causation: flying being in an expansion that is good does not also make flying good. Flying being in an expansion that is bad does not make flying bad.

Flying being bad is not a big enough mechanic to single-handedly ruin an expansion. The effect of flying on the game is subtler than that, like the effect of other small bad features like LFG and built-in quest tracking. It has, however, ruined the game slowly and steadily over the long term.

Dam toughs modern conveniences that I can play without!!! I want to have none of it and play with Thotbot open like the good o'l days!